Connection between 24hr lights & males

[videoman40]

Hey skunkushybrid, buddy, I never said I guaranteed anything, what I said was that my friend uses these guidelines and regularly gets 9 out of 10 being females.

Also, I took your advice and did re-read my thread, and you seem bent on believing the post is only about femenized seeds....to prove my point, I want to direct you to the first sentence in the 2nd paragraph, where dutch passion clearly states:
"From literature and our own findings it appears that the growth of a male or female plant from seed, except for the predisposition in the gender chromosomes, also depends on various environmental factors."

Now if they were only talking about fem seeds, why did they make a point of mentioning males too? Because they are talking about random seeds in this paragraph, that's why.

Actually, the more I think about what you say, it is crazy, why would a seed bank, sell you seeds, and Dutch Passion are not cheap seeds, and femenized seeds at that...........and than tell you to do all this crap to get your females? Thats total BS, they are trying to help you get more females from regular seeds and save some bucks.
Peace

To say that you can guarantee a 90% female ratio from normal seed is wrong.

 

[Natanis]

The defense rests.

I read the entire thread and I'm going with Vman on this one. Not that my opinion means much as a botanist, but semantics I do know!!

 

[videoman40]

Thank you, Thank you very much! LoL

The defense rests.

I read the entire thread and I'm going with Vman on this one. Not that my opinion means much as a botanist, but semantics I do know!!

 

[skunkushybrid]

Hey skunkushybrid, buddy, I never said I guaranteed anything, what I said was that my friend uses these guidelines and regularly gets 9 out of 10 being females.

Also, I took your advice and did re-read my thread, and you seem bent on believing the post is only about femenized seeds....to prove my point, I want to direct you to the first sentence in the 2nd paragraph, where dutch passion clearly states:
"From literature and our own findings it appears that the growth of a male or female plant from seed, except for the predisposition in the gender chromosomes, also depends on various environmental factors."

Now if they were only talking about fem seeds, why did they make a point of mentioning males too?

Because you still get male seeds from a hermie, that's why.

 

[babygro]

Sounds like from this article or research, that going with a 24/7 lighting schedule during the veg. stage helps produce more females. This probably requires the right type of light/bulb type (MH) to shorten the veg. period. Interesting how the two studies differ in this aspect.

As does going with a 18/6 lighting schedule in vegetative growth which a lot of people also use.

 

[videoman40]

While I do agree with you, that a hermie can produce a male. It seems to me that most people on this site seem to believe that a hermie can only produce a female or another hermie.

Moving on, look at it from a customers point of view, that is interested in buying fem seeds....Do you really believe that Dutch Passion is selling fem seeds at twice the normal price, than advising people to go through all this bullshit to insure getting females? Absolutlely not. This is about regular seeds.
Female seeds produce females.
Peace

Because you still get male seeds from a hermie, that's why.

 

[WordUp]

As does going with a 18/6 lighting schedule in vegetative growth which a lot of people also use.

I find it very interesting about trying to help mother nature along to change the 50% odds of getting a female up to a much higher percentage (i.e. 80%) using the environment. The strange thing is 2 very well written reports/studies/research differ in the amount of light that should be given during the whole veg. stage. One says, less is better (~18/6 hrs per day) while the other says, more is better (24 hrs per day or 24/7) is ideal to speed up the veg stage. Also using a MH type of bulb will help too.

Also, in a Thread I questioned a sites germination process. They said never use pre-germination (soak in water or damp paper towels, etc.) on new seeds but only on seeds that are 3+ years or older, which is against what most guides and growers say is okay.

That is why forums like this are great to get different views and experiences. Learning a lot of good things fast, but also I get confused sometime too.

 

[babygro]

While I do agree with you, that a hermie can produce a male. It seems to me that most people on this site seem to believe that a hermie can only produce a female or another hermie.[/COLOR]

Of course hermaphrodite plants can produce males, but only in the right circumstances. For a hermaphrodite to produce male offspring, it has to have been a 'genetic' male to start with. Female hermaphrodites CANNOT produce genetic male offspring because the female hermaphrodite simply does not carry the male chromosomes - therefore it cannot produce male offspring.

I fail to see the relevance of any of that to feminised seeds, which are produced from female plants who have been turned into hermaphrodites via chemical treatment. These 'feminised' seeds produced from female hermaphrodite plants cannt produce male offspring. They can only produce either 100% female plants or genetic hermaphrodites.

No surprise really then that the 'general concensus' of opinion regarding hermaphrodites on here is that they do not produce male plants because the vast majority of hermaphrodites grown on this site are female hermaphrodites incapable of producing male offspring.

Let's not confuse and obfuscate things any further than they are already eh Videoman?

Moving on, look at it from a customers point of view, that is interested in buying fem seeds....Do you really believe that Dutch Passion is selling fem seeds at twice the normal price, than advising people to go through all this bullshit to insure getting females? Absolutlely not. This is about regular seeds.

Dutch Passion also sell regular seeds you know?

"In an experiment done in 1999 we grew 15 varieties of "feminized" seeds. We started with 30 seeds per variety. The goals were: 1) to determine the percentages of female, male, and hermaphroditic plants. 2) to compare the uniformity (homogeneity) among plants from "feminized" seeds with those grown from "regular" seeds.

1. The results were excellent. Nine out of fifteen varieties had 100% female offspring. Percentages of female plants from the other 6 varieties were between 80 and 90%. These plants were all hermaphrodites, producing their male flowers at the end of their lifecycle. Seed-setting hardly took place. No males were found."

That refers specifically to feminised seeds. Out of 15 x 30 = 450 seeds, not a single male plant was found, supporting what I've said above.

"From literature and our own findings it appears that the growth of a male or female plant from seed, except for the predisposition in the gender chromosomes, also depends on various environmental factors. The environmental factors that influence gender are:
* a higher nitrogen concentration will give more females.
* a higher potassium concentration will give more males.
* a higher potassium concentration will give more males.
* a higher humidity will give more females.
* a lower temperature will give more females.
* more blue light will give more females.
* Fewer hours of light will give more females."

That all refers to regular seeds and not 'feminised' ones.

 

[babygro]

I find it very interesting about trying to help mother nature along to change the 50% odds of getting a female up to a much higher percentage (i.e. 80%) using the environment.

And a lot of people simply don't bother with it because it's a load of hassle.

The strange thing is 2 very well written reports/studies/research differ in the amount of light that should be given during the whole veg. stage. One says, less is better (~18/6 hrs per day) while the other says, more is better (24 hrs per day or 24/7) is ideal to speed up the veg stage. Also using a MH type of bulb will help too.

Well you're getting a little confused here, although I don't know what 'other' report you're referring to. The one I posted was fairly clear in what it said, which was that studies had found that if you veg plants on a 18-24 hour vegeative lights on schedule and flower under 3 months you get more females than males. Why is that confusing?

A lot of people argue that 24 hour light is better than 18 for the simple reason that more light should = more growth, I don't buy that myself as plants need a rest during the dark period to carry out repairs to itself and to allow the roots to grow.

Also, in a Thread I questioned a sites germination process. They said never use pre-germination (soak in water or damp paper towels, etc.) on new seeds but only on seeds that are 3+ years or older, which is against what most guides and growers say is okay.

That's because you want a simple a, b, c, 1, 2, 3 method to successful results - forget it it doesn't exist. What does exist are methods that work for you, and you need to decide and experiment with what those methods are.

Regarding Mandala seeds' method of germination, for their seeds, that's what they recommend. Placing the seed in the soil is a perfectly accepted practice of germinating seeds and as I mentioned to you before it helps prevent damage because you don't have to handle the delicate taproot when transplanting. All of Mandalas seeds are very fresh and viable and you simply do not need to soak the seed shell coating in water to initiate germination - in the same way you *might* need to when trying to germinate older seeds that may have started to dry out.

 

[videoman40]

Well I disagree here, but I'll agree with you later on in one sec....

The male gene is always present, just to a lesser degree.
Femenized seeds, can and do produce males. I've seen it happen. The male gene as I've said, is always present, just not as dominant as the female gene is.

Moving on, to the last paragraph, I totally agree with you here, (surprised?)
I agree, this statement is about regualr seeds, it is the ONLY explanation that makes sense, please....tell it to skunkushybrid, you dont have to make this point with me, it seems obvious to everyone but him.
Peace

"From literature and our own findings it appears that the growth of a male or female plant from seed, except for the predisposition in the gender chromosomes, also depends on various environmental factors. The environmental factors that influence gender are:
* a higher nitrogen concentration will give more females.
* a higher potassium concentration will give more males.
* a higher potassium concentration will give more males.
* a higher humidity will give more females.
* a lower temperature will give more females.
* more blue light will give more females.
* Fewer hours of light will give more females."

That all refers to regular seeds and not 'feminised' ones.

Of course hermaphrodite plants can produce males, but only in the right circumstances. For a hermaphrodite to produce male offspring, it has to have been a 'genetic' male to start with. Female hermaphrodites CANNOT produce genetic male offspring because the female hermaphrodite simply does not carry the male chromosomes - therefore it cannot produce male offspring.

I fail to see the relevance of any of that to feminised seeds, which are produced from female plants who have been turned into hermaphrodites via chemical treatment. These 'feminised' seeds produced from female hermaphrodite plants cannt produce male offspring. They can only produce either 100% female plants or genetic hermaphrodites.

No surprise really then that the 'general concensus' of opinion regarding hermaphrodites on here is that they do not produce male plants because the vast majority of hermaphrodites grown on this site are female hermaphrodites incapable of producing male offspring.

Let's not confuse and obfuscate things any further than they are already eh Videoman?




Dutch Passion also sell regular seeds you know?

"In an experiment done in 1999 we grew 15 varieties of "feminized" seeds. We started with 30 seeds per variety. The goals were: 1) to determine the percentages of female, male, and hermaphroditic plants. 2) to compare the uniformity (homogeneity) among plants from "feminized" seeds with those grown from "regular" seeds.

1. The results were excellent. Nine out of fifteen varieties had 100% female offspring. Percentages of female plants from the other 6 varieties were between 80 and 90%. These plants were all hermaphrodites, producing their male flowers at the end of their lifecycle. Seed-setting hardly took place. No males were found."

That refers specifically to feminised seeds. Out of 15 x 30 = 450 seeds, not a single male plant was found, supporting what I've said above.

"From literature and our own findings it appears that the growth of a male or female plant from seed, except for the predisposition in the gender chromosomes, also depends on various environmental factors. The environmental factors that influence gender are:
* a higher nitrogen concentration will give more females.
* a higher potassium concentration will give more males.
* a higher potassium concentration will give more males.
* a higher humidity will give more females.
* a lower temperature will give more females.
* more blue light will give more females.
* Fewer hours of light will give more females."

That all refers to regular seeds and not 'feminised' ones.

 

[Wavels]

For my 2 cents...
My preference is for 24 hours a day for veg, and then I shift right to 12/12 for flowering. I always veg for less than 3 months before flowering.
I tried 18/6 for several crops and went back to 24 hours. IMO, they grow faster under constant light.
I did not notice any difference in the male/female ratio between the two light schedules.

 

[babygro]

The male gene is always present, just to a lesser degree.

What this supposed to mean? The male gene is always present just to a lesser degree? You mean sometimes it pops up but most of the time it doesnt? You'll have to forgive me for not buying into this in any way shape or form.

A female plant does NOT carry male genes, either in its genetic form or its hermaphrodite form. As I said earlier -

" One pair of chromosomes carries the primary genes that determine sex. These chromosomes are labelled either X or Y. Male plants have an XY pair of sex chromosomes. Females have XX. Each parent contribute one set of 10 chromosomes, which includes one sex chromosome, to the embryo. The sex chromosome carried by the female ovule can only be X. The one carried by pollen of the male plant may be either X or Y. From the pollen, the embryo has a 50/50 chance of receiving an X, likewise for Y; hance, male and female progeny appear in equal numbers (in humans, the sperm carries either an X or a Y chromosome.)"

I'm afraid the female plant with the XX chromosomes, doesn't suddenly change to XY just because it turns hermaphrodite I'm afraid - they remain XX.

Femenized seeds, can and do produce males. I've seen it happen. The male gene as I've said, is always present, just not as dominant as the female gene is.

Feminised seeds do NOT produce male plants, they produce either female or genetic hermaphrodites. If they do (and you've witnessed it) please demonstrate it to me. Out of all the grows using feminised seeds on this site you won't find one single seed has produced a male plant. That's not 'not as dominant as the female gene'.

I agree, this statement is about regualr seeds, it is the ONLY explanation that makes sense, please....tell it to skunkushybrid, you dont have to make this point with me, it seems obvious to everyone but him.

Skunkushybrid is intelligent enough to figure things like this out for himself.

 

[WordUp]

Well you're getting a little confused here, although I don't know what 'other' report you're referring to. The one I posted was fairly clear in what it said, which was that studies had found that if you veg plants on a 18-24 hour vegeative lights on schedule and flower under 3 months you get more females than males. Why is that confusing?

Originally Posted by babygro
Environmental Effects
If artificial light is used, the length of the photoperiod can influence sexual expression. Normal flowering, with about equal numbers of male and female plants, seems to occur when the photoperiod is from 15 to 17 hours of light for a period of three to five months. The photoperiod is then shortened to 12 hours to induce flowering. With longer photoperiods, from 18 to 24 hours a day, the ratio of males to females changes, depending on whether flowering is induced earlier or later in the plant's life. When the plants are grown with long photoperiods for six months or more, usually there are at least 10 percent more male then female plants. When flowering is induced within three months of age, more females develop. Actually, the "extra" males or females are reversed plants, but the reversals occur before the plants flower in their natural genders.

------------------

I believe that you posted the second study that I was talking about (see above).

This seconds study seems to indicate that a shorter veg. stage helps produce more females. I assume that by using 24/7 and MH lights will quicken the veg. stage more than using 18/6 and other types of lights?

The first study that this thread is based on states that more darkness or less light (18/6) during the veg. stage will product more females. This will length the veg. stage somewhat. There is the difference in the 2 studies.

By the way, do you have a science or technical background? You seem to be a lot more analytical than myself. In otherwords, people on this forum should go by what you say more than myself. I am just a newbie that what to learn and pass onto others when possible. Thank you.

 

[tim545]

A female plant does NOT carry male genes, either in its genetic form or its hermaphrodite form. As I said earlier -

" One pair of chromosomes carries the primary genes that determine sex. These chromosomes are labelled either X or Y. Male plants have an XY pair of sex chromosomes. Females have XX. Each parent contribute one set of 10 chromosomes, which includes one sex chromosome, to the embryo. The sex chromosome carried by the female ovule can only be X. The one carried by pollen of the male plant may be either X or Y. From the pollen, the embryo has a 50/50 chance of receiving an X, likewise for Y; hance, male and female progeny appear in equal numbers (in humans, the sperm carries either an X or a Y chromosome.)"

I'm afraid the female plant with the XX chromosomes, doesn't suddenly change to XY just because it turns hermaphrodite I'm afraid - they remain XX.

This is all well and good... except cannabis plants do not share the same XX/XY chromosome system that mammals do. Your argument is based on a faulty assumption.

Some credible research is here: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9122(193106)18:6<424:TFCOSR>2.0.CO;2-7

It really isn't disputable that some plants' gender can be influenced by environmental factors. It appears that this is the case with marijuana as well. I'm a little skeptical that what Dutch Passion is completely factual, but it definitely is not completely unreasonable.

FWIW, I immediately assumed that this was a load of crap... but the more you look into it the more it makes sense.

 

[skunkushybrid]

I'm a little skeptical that what Dutch Passion is completely factual, but it definitely is not completely unreasonable.

So it's not unreasonable that Dutch Passion have discovered a way to get 90% females from normal seed?

I'm trying to stay out of this now as I have explained enough. If this is not clear to others then I'm happy for them to prove me wrong.

Dutch Passion were on about getting a 90% ratio from hermied plants... not natural hermies... but forced hermies. A hermie seed from a forced hermie is a natural hermie, and should have 100% fems and hermies.

From a forced hermie, I imagine sex wise that the seeds (and eventual plants) would be quite volatile, and much more responsive to environmental factors.

In fact even seed from a natural hermie have certain stability factors, so that a fem can be easier turned into a hermie than a fem from normal seed.

I mean this is bad information. A guy on this site took it to heart and told people in a thread that beginner growers should expect 90% males... with, as you progress and learn more, better results in the fem/male ratio. Total bullshit.

 

[nongreenthumb]

It seems like videoman has just come back to be disruptive, I cant believe either that you can guarantee sex by following any guidlines, the only way to make sure that you get a female ratio of 80% or higher is to buy fem seeds.

I dont get it, if a seeds sex is already decided, and this is what most people seem to agree on, I dont see how it can completely reverse its sex later on, I can understand it becoming hermie but a complete sex reversal seems to be untrue, if this was the case it would be in all grow guides and everyone would be doing it and there wouldnt be a need for fem seeds.

If dutch passion really had found a way of reversing sex without using chemicals and creating hermies, I'm sure that this secret would be closely guarded.

 

[skunkushybrid]

I don't think VM's being disruptive... we need to argue these points so that we can learn. I'm not arguing for the sake of it, i honestly believe I am right. I know VM thinks he is right too, yet we are at an empasse.

Dutch Passion haven't helped much with their wording, and I have in fact noticed this info' on cannabis information sites, word for word obviously stolen/cut n pasted from the DP website. This info is wrong, and it seems to be spreading. It seems the only people capable of shedding light on the subject are DP themselves.

Anyone got any ideas?

 

[tim545]

It seems like videoman has just come back to be disruptive, I cant believe either that you can guarantee sex by following any guidlines, the only way to make sure that you get a female ratio of 80% or higher is to buy fem seeds.

I dont get it, if a seeds sex is already decided, and this is what most people seem to agree on, I dont see how it can completely reverse its sex later on, I can understand it becoming hermie but a complete sex reversal seems to be untrue, if this was the case it would be in all grow guides and everyone would be doing it and there wouldnt be a need for fem seeds.

If dutch passion really had found a way of reversing sex without using chemicals and creating hermies, I'm sure that this secret would be closely guarded.

The thing is, sex isn't completely already decided. There is no accepted way of modeling sexual expression in cannabis plants.

From wikipedia:
Dioecy is relatively uncommon in the plant kingdom, and a very low percentage of dioecious plant species have been determined to use the XY system. In most cases where the XY system is found it is believed to have evolved recently and independently.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis#_note-4 Since the 1920s, a number of sex determination models have been proposed for Cannabis. Ainsworth describes sex determination in the genus as using "an X/autosome dosage-type."
[...]
Many researchers have suggested that sex in Cannabis is determined or strongly influenced by environmental factors.
-----------



I agree with your last post, skunk, but the idea of increasing your female to male ratio through environmental factors has some validity. It is probably a good idea to follow the guidelines set by DP (hehe, DP), but I wouldn't expect to reach any of the outrageous claims.

My friend, a biology major, told me that there are examples of complete gender reversal from environmental factors in some animals. It doesn't make a lot of intuitive sense, but it's not unprecedented.

 

[videoman40]

I'd love to argue this point with you babygro, but as I read the thread again, I see that you still believe roots only grow at night too, another myth.
Seeing as where you are coming from, I'm not going to dive into this with you, as you've also put me in a position of doing what, producing a plant that was obviously killed months ago?

Do some reading, or post the question in one of the other forums you frequent.

Female seeds to give a much high ration of females, but hermies are possible and so are males. It is not a guaranteed, magical answer to always get only females.
Peace

Feminised seeds do NOT produce male plants, they produce either female or genetic hermaphrodites. If they do (and you've witnessed it) please demonstrate it to me. Out of all the grows using feminised seeds on this site you won't find one single seed has produced a male plant. That's not 'not as dominant as the female gene'.

 

[skunkushybrid]

all untrue hermies will produce males. If you hermie one of your plants, the seed from it will be very, very unstable no matter what sex it is. Even seed from a natural hermie are unstable.

Roots only grow in the dark, not at night. It should always be dark/night to your roots. They shy away from the light. I have witnessed this myself by growing a plant/runt in a clear plastic tub.