Manifold 1st time grower near flip, need help

[JohnDee]

Yup, newbie gotta try to fix it syndrome

Well hopefully the organic guys can get you back on track. As long as you're learning...it's all good. Do not get that newbie "eye on the prize" attitude. How much will it yield and all those related questions. You want a more caring approach. Chicks usually make better growers because that nurturing thing comes naturally to them. We, the mighty hunters...just want the end product. The roast spitted over the fire. So don't be surprised if you become more familiar with your feminine side...as your grow skills develop.


Organic growing is a whole different philosophy You feed the microbes and the soil...not the plant. And your soil is more of a quick and dirty approach. I know you understand that now.
Cheers,
JD

 

[ComfortCreator]

Well hopefully the organic guys can get you back on track. As long as you're learning...it's all good. Do not get that newbie "eye on the prize" attitude. How much will it yield and all those related questions. You want a more caring approach. Chicks usually make better growers because that nurturing thing comes naturally to them. We, the mighty hunters...just want the end product. The roast spitted over the fire. So don't be surprised if you become more familiar with your feminine side...as your grow skills develop.


Organic growing is a whole different philosophy You feed the microbes and the soil...not the plant. And your soil is more of a quick and dirty approach. I know you understand that now.
Cheers,
JD

My take is if I just wanted yield I would have gone autoflower or just let them grow the first time...my real goal is to eventually master the basics. In choosing the organic soil it made the most sense because for a newbie it should be very easy (relative to other things). Unfortunately it has never been plants in perfect health. I own that and my desire to get them healthy drives me now. I manifolded knowing it would take longer, teach me more and give me bigger plants going into flower. By far the most fun I have had is training, nurturing and pruning them, making mistakes and recalibrating my approach.

I admire these plants and am amazed at how durable they have been. Every part has been an adventure. I am a medical patient and see how little care is put into the products I buy...and worse I very much dislike the for profit attitude of the growers and stores involved in the industry. Being as frank and open as Im willing to get on a public forum...the industry is ripping off patients and offering mediocre product...and lying about most of it....this is all my opinion. I know more about the products than the store reps, thats for sure.

Even in the illicit market it is all about speed and profit, nobody cares about quality. Its just human nature, I guess.

Call me crazy but I think I am close to very healthy plants. (Delusion is Grand ). A few tweaks or changes and it may be a success. Don't give up on me JD...we can figure it out. Im a thinker, and wont make a change until it makes sense, or the situation becomes desperate.

Again the advice, honest evaluation and help is so appreciated!

 

[.Smoke]

.smoke i am hoping you can come back and talk a bit more about your changes with epsom salts. If you can take a look at my pics and see if you think epsom salts might help. My problem is fade to what looks somewhat like a Mag def...it couldnt be a Nitrogen def could it? Do you think sulfur would help hurt or have no effect on my leaves? I wish my plants were too green!

I'll help with whatever I can. But keep in mind I am no authority on any subject. I've only been growing for 6 months. I will say I'm proud though. I went from literally a box and a cfl on a grow that didn't even make it to harvest to here now.

I've just tried to do my research and weed through all the misinformation out there. I cant comment on the sulfur. Haven't used it.
I use these to help diagnose. Ignore the arrow.

 

[.Smoke]

One more thing.
I've seen MUCH BETTER results when I quit listening to every comment and started feeding exactly as my nutes say too.
Believe it or not it seems like the chemists that make the stuff know what they're talking about...
Follow nute schedule +1 tsp Epsom salt per gal and PH is all I do. 50/50 soil/perlite mix.

 

[Clumpyoyster]

i have grow in LED and luckily i didnt see many problems and it was my very first grow and am happy about it. I would recommend a good flush with 20% runoff. pH the water to 6.5 and flush the shit out of them . What is your feeding schedule? Do you feed nutes everytime? I like to alternate between nutes and ph'd water with runoff everytime. I do start small with pots and pot up twice. From solo cups to 1 gallon then to either 3 gallon or 5 gallon right before flower. Good luck!

 

[ComfortCreator]

I think this is great advice honestly. I'm all for defoliation in veg, not a fan of totally stripping plants in flower. Striping some fan leaves will open up more bud sites, and allow more air flow. If the new growth is coming in healthy you might have already fixed it, and don't need to change anything else. It takes time for these plants to react, so its good to take your time with them.



I also agree with this. Lockouts and deficiancies can be hard to tell apart some times. Your water doesn't sound terrible but as high as it is I bet it already has a lot of calcium in it. So adding more calmag on top of that on top of whats already in the soil might be overloading the plants system.

View attachment 4426117

To much K can prevent mag uptake even if there is plenty of mag. Temps can be off preventing uptake of a nutrient, which then causes an issue with a different one................

I like Johns suggestion to defol and give it a chance recover before flipping. Once you start seeing some strong growth again flip em and keep them happy.

This chart and these comments have me focused. Like many things I didn't study it hard enough the first time. I've read about every deficiency and excess but not how they antagonize each other. Yup this looks like a key.

Assume I am right I see Mag def signs.
If I add calmag+, I add nitrogen, calcium, mag and iron.

The added nitrogen further increased the need for Mag. The added calcium increased the need for mag. The higher level of mag, even if locked out would increase the need for P. After a few cal mags i saw slight purpling a few plants leaves.

I can likely assume P is ok, it seemed to be before.

According to the chart only Ca or K can cause the appearance of my mag deficiency - not P. That assumes I had only be using water no additives.

My tapwater has a 3 to 1 ratio of cal to mag. Theres plenty of both, seemingly, in my lime in the mix. The ratio mirrors calmag solution so how far off can either be as far as availability.

If i could increase only Mag, it could only antagonize K, which if your suspicion of abundance is correct, would be helpful. The increased need for P would potentially be created by this also.

There are potential signs of sulfur def as JD said. The result of sulfur toxicity is slow growth...not a problem so far except one plant and it is not typical of the rest.

I believe the solution then is Epsom salt. It will increase Mag and sulfur. It will only potentially cause a problem with P.

Instinct and logic says this is correct. I had perhaps the right problem identified but have used the wrong solution.

 

[ComfortCreator]

i have grow in LED and luckily i didnt see many problems and it was my very first grow and am happy about it. I would recommend a good flush with 20% runoff. pH the water to 6.5 and flush the shit out of them . What is your feeding schedule? Do you feed nutes everytime? I like to alternate between nutes and ph'd water with runoff everytime. I do start small with pots and pot up twice. From solo cups to 1 gallon then to either 3 gallon or 5 gallon right before flower. Good luck!

Im straight organic, no nutes added. So flushing is a last ditch as I would drain the nutrients it will use later.

No way I expected you guys to read the whole thread. I think though the ideas are all correct. It simply needs mag and maybe sulfur to balance out an increased demand due to K.

I agree on 6.5ph water.
I agree on 1tsp epsom salts.
Im feeling positive about this.
I hope it works!

And all comments are greatly appreciated!

 

[ComfortCreator]

One more thing.
I've seen MUCH BETTER results when I quit listening to every comment and started feeding exactly as my nutes say too.
Believe it or not it seems like the chemists that make the stuff know what they're talking about...
Follow nute schedule +1 tsp Epsom salt per gal and PH is all I do. 50/50 soil/perlite mix.

I do believe you got BINGO!

Thanks .smoke

 

[Thundercat]

This chart and these comments have me focused. Like many things I didn't study it hard enough the first time. I've read about every deficiency and excess but not how they antagonize each other. Yup this looks like a key.

Assume I am right I see Mag def signs.
If I add calmag+, I add nitrogen, calcium, mag and iron.

The added nitrogen further increased the need for Mag. The added calcium increased the need for mag. The higher level of mag, even if locked out would increase the need for P. After a few cal mags i saw slight purpling a few plants leaves.

I can likely assume P is ok, it seemed to be before.

According to the chart only Ca or K can cause the appearance of my mag deficiency - not P. That assumes I had only be using water no additives.

My tapwater has a 3 to 1 ratio of cal to mag. Theres plenty of both, seemingly, in my lime in the mix. The ratio mirrors calmag solution so how far off can either be as far as availability.

If i could increase only Mag, it could only antagonize K, which if your suspicion of abundance is correct, would be helpful. The increased need for P would potentially be created by this also.

There are potential signs of sulfur def as JD said. The result of sulfur toxicity is slow growth...not a problem so far except one plant and it is not typical of the rest.

I believe the solution then is Epsom salt. It will increase Mag and sulfur. It will only potentially cause a problem with P.

Instinct and logic says this is correct. I had perhaps the right problem identified but have used the wrong solution.

I think that the epsom is a very reasonable change to replace the calmag. You clearly have TONS of calcium between everything.

 

[Bernie420]

I do believe you got BINGO!

Thanks .smoke

If you just go off of the label then you should start at 1/4 strenght then go up to a half. Use a ppm meter and get a ppm reading of what half strength is in a gallon. Ususally full strength is too hot.

 

[ComfortCreator]

If you just go off of the label then you should start at 1/4 strenght then go up to a half. Use a ppm meter and get a ppm reading of what half strength is in a gallon. Ususally full strength is too hot.

I dont use any nutrients, is an organic soil mix that should not need any adds if it goes right.

 

[Bernie420]

Looked at your pics. The deficiency were very subtle. It was hard read. I agree with jd that it looks like sulfer deficiency, as the biggest issue we are seeing I see a little mag and potasium deficiency as well.
To apply mag foliar feed 1 tsp per gallon put some in a quart add a touch of a surfactant / clean dish soap, think natural, not dawn and add the rest at the pot.

This is what I think you should do. Flush out the pots till you have some good run off let say a gal or two comes out the bottom. We want to saturate the entire root system. NO dry spots. I think then you should add a veg nute and the recharges and water in immediately after the flush, so you will have more run off to vac out of your trays. Dont flush and then wait for it to dry starving the plant. The veg nute should be about 600 ppms total ppm's water ppm nute and recharge all together. Mix it all in a gallon per label instructions at half strength , use the recharge at regular strength, then ppm meter it, if its hot add more water till it gets to 600-575 ish. or how ever much water you need to make up I think two gals should be able to feed those plants fine , so water in 2 quarts each evenly in the pot after the flush. Do the nutes for the next watering also. Then go back to the super soil thing you have going on.

foliar feed / water in the left over stuff at the roots on top of the feed you just did.

foliar feed for the next five days a light mist, lights off. So on the next day make up a batch of 1 tsp per gal of epsom salt ppm meter this keep it at 300 ppms or below 250ish , (didnt mention this above but dont foliar feed hot) pour some in a quart and add the surfactant. Pour the rest little bit around the pots equally and evenly. This quart you filled up should be enough for the next few foliar application. And stupid me you had some left over from the day before so use that stuff now and dont make a second batch til later. Brain fart. then top feed the extra mag on top of the roots then in a few days when you make a new gal of epsom salt. .

The extra mag isnt going to hurt anything, neither is getting some extra microbes in there.

leave it alone for a while.

Need to get the microbes in there and get them too work. Should of added microbes a long time ago.

research what microbes do. basically you made a super soil and grew a plant in it but something is off might be that the plant is growing faster than the microbes can keep up with it. Microbes are needed to break down all that organic material to make it available to the plant. The plant feeds the microbes. Its a party down there.

the recharge is cool I listen to the podcast when I trim. It has a bunch of stuff in it, you have a super soil. So why add more nutes (not to go against what I said earlier add nutes there) although I like the stuff that is in there. So one thing to consider is to just get a microbe product by itself and use that and save the recharge for another grow idk up to you i guess. I like the RAW brand bloom use it in veg and bloom the veg microbes are very similar and no need to buy two different bags of it.

You should be running 18/6, you sleep at night and your plant needs to too, except you have been keeping it up all this time and it is cranky. The plants does alot in the dark period, like growing and resting, important things.

Raise the light up while it does its thing. The best thing to do when there is a problem is to raise the light up and slow the grow. Let them recover, get their shit together. Maybe that light idk what it is other than an led, even the low watt ones are too intense for the plant if its too close.

Ppm the run off how hot is it?? post what it is. Flush till you get about 700-800 ppm as the reading of the run off in the tray. Then stop flushing. Then do above. (after thought)
Measuring run off ph is stupid that number tells you nothing. Microbes regulate the ph at the root surface.

Once the new growth looks ok then you can put it in flower. So re-evaluate in a week, if it looks good then it can go into flower. The damaged leaves probably wont turn back to normal looking.

 

[Bernie420]

I dont use any nutrients, is an organic soil mix that should not need any adds if it goes right.

I know SUPER SOIL ewwwwwww.
I was responding to your response about what smoke said about feeding off of the bottle suggestions. Sometimes it gets too hot.

And if you use the cal/mag just do a baseline of 2ml per gal when used thats enough for that product most times. Thats make the water hot quick as well in my experience. less is more.

 

[Bernie420]

This is what I think you should do. Flush out the pots till you have some good run off let say a gal or two comes out the bottom. We want to saturate the entire root system. NO dry spots. I think then you should add a veg nute and the recharges and water in immediately after the flush, so you will have more run off to vac out of your trays. Dont flush and then wait for it to dry starving the plant. The veg nute should be about 600 ppms total ppm's water ppm nute and recharge all together. Mix it all in a gallon per label instructions at half strength , use the recharge at regular strength, then ppm meter it, if its hot add more water till it gets to 600-575 ish. or how ever much water you need to make up I think two gals should be able to feed those plants fine , so water in 2 quarts each evenly in the pot after the flush. Do the nutes for the next watering also

My bad im thinking R/O water like I use it might be hard to dilute down to 600ish if it is too hot. With your water, kind of stupid of me i guess. I suggest that you take your 175 (whatever) ppm water add the veg nuts to it till it get to 600ppms , add the recharge mix well water it in.

 

[ComfortCreator]

Bernie420 thank you for the thoughtful and detailed post, I thought about it last night and this morning.

When I made the soil it cooked for about 45 to 60 days. I did not add teas to it but thought the microbes would grow naturally.

I am very hesitant to flush this grow medium as it is a soil designed to have everything it needs. I wont argue that it has current issues, but flushing it out and adding back other nutes, in my opinion, will make managing the grow even harder...I have no idea what will be left or exactly what I would be wanting to flush out..esp if it is sulfur that is missing or locked.

Check out the latest pictures here...taken only 12hrs after the last set. Notice the yellowing of the new growth is gone, color has come back to them esp the bigger ones. The lighter color plants (diff strains, but im not saying they should look that pale)...seem to be responding. It was at 2 days after watering. Thats why I bring it up...after every watering it seems to start fading and recover and improve as the days go by until I water again. Am I maybe watering wrong, causing a day or so of lockout that it recovers from? Or in a 12hr light on cycle, do plants really change this much. Check out the picture of tops really growing up and green as can be!

I have my original amendment mix, and could topdress with some if you or anybody thinks some additional nutrition is needed.

The fans and air circulation are helping. I also think the recharge is helping. It doesnt have much nutrition that I know of, I think it is bacteria. I have used recharge a few waterings. Thats why I also got some Mammoth P, I figure I can get add those and alternate what microbes I add with every watering.

I am really focused on watering. Ive started using a soil probe and plan to wait longer to water...and more importantly only water a pot when it specifically needs it. I did this, at least better, with the last few waterings and feel it is helping.

Ideas and thoughts are welcomed, no matter if they contradict my thinking or not.

 

[JohnDee]

I have my original amendment mix, and could topdress with some if you or anybody thinks some additional nutrition is needed.

The fans and air circulation are helping. I also think the recharge is helping. It doesnt have much nutrition that I know of, I think it is bacteria. I have used recharge a few waterings. Thats why I also got some Mammoth P, I figure I can get add those and alternate what microbes I add with every watering.

Hi CC,
I see you're still hanging in there...had a few thoughts. I don't think any more food is needed...over and above your soil. The organic microbes are most beneficial in P absorption...so if giving microbes...and especially in 12/12...a little extra P won't hurt. Just be gentle.

Your plants do look better. I was thinking that mobile elements such as Mg and K will allow the leaf to improve in appearance as shortage is corrected. Whereas sulfur is immobile and even if correction is made...the leaf will forever be striped. Kinda cute actually. Really stoned and this was hard to type. lol
JD

 

[ComfortCreator]

Hi CC,
I see you're still hanging in there...had a few thoughts. I don't think any more food is needed...over and above your soil. The organic microbes are most beneficial in P absorption...so if giving microbes...and especially in 12/12...a little extra P won't hurt. Just be gentle.

Your plants do look better. I was thinking that mobile elements such as Mg and K will allow the leaf to improve in appearance as shortage is corrected. Whereas sulfur is immobile and even if correction is made...the leaf will forever be striped. Kinda cute actually. Really stoned and this was hard to type. lol
JD

Hey JohnDee,

Lol I am back on the team again and loving it!
I get what you are saying...a lot of it seems very mobile.
Do you still think sulfur is helping...or just the mag?
I had put a Tbsp of Big bloom (supposedly organic) in the last watering with 1/2 tsp epsom salt.
It has very little pk and a bit of iron.

JD enjoy the buzz!

 

[ComfortCreator]

JD one other question --
What temp and humidity do YOU like for flower?

 

[JohnDee]

JD one other question --
What temp and humidity do YOU like for flower?

CC,
Plant elements are categorized into mobile and non-mobile. Though the categories are sort of loose. Has to do with how easily elements pass through cell walls. Non-mobile elements can still be moved around...but the plant expends energy doing that.

And...as coincidence will have it...the energy transfers that occur all involve P. Very important element.

I don't humidify or dehumidify in my bloom room. Super high humidity in my location. In winter...using heat...and once the plants are large enough for transpiration to have an impact...I suppose it's 75 degrees and low 40s rh. I have to let outside air in for cooling during summer so RH gets higher. Up to 60 but I run more fans...
JD

PS (edit): Your question about sulfur. It probably isn't required at this point, but won't hurt anything. You want to switch back to calmag?

 

[Frank Nitty]

CC,
Plant elements are categorized into mobile and non-mobile. Though the categories are sort of loose. Has to do with how easily elements pass through cell walls. Non-mobile elements can still be moved around...but the plant expends energy doing that.

And...as coincidence will have it...the energy transfers that occur all involve P. Very important element.

I don't humidify or dehumidify in my bloom room. Super high humidity in my location. In winter...using heat...and once the plants are large enough for transpiration to have an impact...I suppose it's 75 degrees and low 40s rh. I have to let outside air in for cooling during summer so RH gets higher. Up to 60 but I run more fans...
JD

PS (edit): Your question about sulfur. It probably isn't required at this point, but won't hurt anything. You want to switch back to calmag?

I don't want to jump all into the conversation but I think I have the same problem...