Is Trump finished?

If you buy something made from plastic, you're supporting the death of the ocean. There is no competing recycling infrastructure to China's because they set up the biggest one that none could compete with, then they closed it so they could sell even more plastic junk. If another country sets up a new recycling infrastructure, they'll open theirs back up and renew subsidies on it, just to shut out competition. Their history shows that this is exactly the sort of tactics they will employ and it works.
 
Fogdog said:
I'm kind of cynical about the whole "send it off to China and they will take care of it in an earth friendly way", kind of thing that we had with them. I'm glad this one ended. We need to set up cradle to grave ownership of materials in all of our products manufactured or sold.
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Until then, what do we do with all these?....
r
 
abandonconflict said:
I think he should just continue to fuck China over as much as possible and not worry about the politics of it since he is going to lose the next election and go to prison anyway. The next president will hopefully be an adult and can make a deal. So yeah, more THAADs on SK and Taiwan operated by the US military free of cost, and big sales of weapons, including attack and cruise missile subs to those countries. Then he should just kill Huawei. basically cross all the lines in the sand that the CCP has drawn. Fuck them over as much as possible in every way that they have shown they are terrified of. Even confiscate some of their fishing vessels in the Atlantic and make sure Meng Wanzhou gets a huge prison sentence in a filthy prison.

The Chinese don't want a deal. He should go all the way China-hawk since he's finished. This has happened before. Nobody thought Rayguns would topple the USSR with a trade war but it did work There was a trade war with Japan at the same time. The same kind of idiot president with the same kind of domestic problems against the same kind of adversary government. You're wrong about the the contest between the US and China. They're the ones reneging. They're the ones playing hardline because they think the next president will be soft.

You already know I can't stand Trump and I do not support him, but the admiration for Chinese strength is just dumb. They have developed nothing impressive militarily, scientifically or technologically. They have only stolen tech. Their middle class wealth is tied up in real estate but they have vast sprawling empty cities. China is as ripe for a tumble as the USSR was. Their successes are over stated and their flaws are concealed.

Their citizenry is in open revolt in Hong Kong and that uprising is far more than just Hong Kong's millennials. You have to refrain from the media links on your chrome browser's suggested content. China's position is far overstated and the US hasn't even started attacking them in earnest. Again, I do not support Trump. I believe that a more mature and intelligent commander in chief would already have brought them down.

Militarily, they have nothing on us. They have only a defensive bubble around the West Philippine Sea. Their military tech is at least 20 years behind ours. The PLA navy would be annihilated in a matter of hours with minimal casualties in an all out war and without a ground invasion of mainland China, they would have no answer. They can't even invade Taiwan with its tiny defensive force. All they have on us is rare earths and public opinion. They are not in nearly as strong of a position as you think.

They are able to think in terms of decades with their planing while our leadership has 4 years at a time, likely followed by a new president who will scrap all of their plans. Look at Obama's work. Billions were spent and years were put into his pivot to Asia and TPP. Trump threw it all away in his first weeks. I can't stand Bannon but he's right on this one, just like Cheney was right about a lot of things (and extremely evil, his Haliburton made tens of billions on the Iraq war).

China is not as powerful as you think.
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I'm not Chinese and could care less, just thought I'd stop by and say your country is what 230ish years old? Whereas China has been the preeminent asian power for 3,000 and probably been in and out of the global number 1 spot many times over. Pretty sure they did allright in the Korean war. Recently the first nation to land a craft on the far side of the moon. They can pretty much manufacture the same products any other nation can and figured that out over the last 40 ish years.
They are a solid number 2 across the board, growing economy with a billion people and a far more homogeneous population than most other nations on the planet. I just think it's funny when you say "they aren't as powerful as you think." China isnt even remotely economically similar to the USSR, and militarily they don't lose a war with the US. Instead, the entire world loses since the outcome of a Sino-US war is mutually assured self destruction. So it would probably be better to figure out how to peacefully and cooperatively coexist.
 
Khyber420 said:
I'm not Chinese and could care less, just thought I'd stop by and say your country is what 230ish years old? Whereas China has been the preeminent asian power for 3,000 and probably been in and out of the global number 1 spot many times over. Pretty sure they did allright in the Korean war. Recently the first nation to land a craft on the far side of the moon. They can pretty much manufacture the same products any other nation can and figured that out over the last 40 ish years.
They are a solid number 2 across the board, growing economy with a billion people and a far more homogeneous population than most other nations on the planet. I just think it's funny when you say "they aren't as powerful as you think." China isnt even remotely economically similar to the USSR, and militarily they don't lose a war with the US. Instead, the entire world loses since the outcome of a Sino-US war is mutually assured self destruction. So it would probably be better to figure out how to peacefully and cooperatively coexist.
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I didn't suggest that the US and China should go to war. I said that they are no match for us militarily. That means they will not attack us because they are terrified of losing. In their thousands of years of bullying their neighbors they have always done very poorly on the sea. Again, nobody wins a nuclear war, including them. That's why they won't do it. That sounds exactly like the power struggle between the US and USSR. USSR was the second biggest economy in the world when we toppled them too. They built that economy on 5 year plans by a central communist party controlling everything directly, exactly like China. They were competing and often beating the US in the space race, just like China. And actually China's population is around 1.4 billion.

This is exactly like the struggle between the US and USSR and nobody thought Rayguns could pull it off. In fact he didn't, not on his own anyway, he was senile, the US did it. This is history repeating itself. I am absolutely against a ground invasion of China. We saw how our ground forces fair on Asian soil in Vietnam and in Korea. Don't twist up what I'm saying.

Even so, in an open war, the only victory China could achieve would be a ground war in Asia. They can't even invade Taiwan.

When the USSR fell to economic pressure, it had one of the biggest ground armies in the history of mankind and the second biggest economy right behind the US. They were engaged in massive economic projects the likes of which the world had never seen, changing the landscape of vast areas and draining entire seas. They were developing technologies of their own that were in many ways superior to our, something China can't even do now.

The USSR were facing popular uprisings on a regular basis which they brutally crushed, exactly like Tiananmen square, keep an eye on Hong Kong.

Flat out, you're wrong and your argument relies on a distortion of what I suggested.
 
As for China's age, no, they are not that old of a culture. Mao's cultural revolution effectively destroyed China's traditions and culture. They harvest Falun Gong (was more popular than communism not that long ago) practitioners for their organs. Their actual government was founded less than a century ago, much younger than the US and even Taiwan (the real China). They persecute Buddhists as much as other religions, which is to say they are ruthlessly oppressing them, despite the Buddhist history of Han governments and empires.

Nothing they have developed was based on their own innovation.
 
doublejj said:
they just outnumber us like 50 to 1....:roll:
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That’s what I was saying before. All they have to do is fight a defensive war and they could wear us out pretty quickly. Imagine facing the civilians whose country you fucked over already and now have taken it to their house. These aren’t the same Chinese that the Japanese overran and subjugated. They’ve got a middle class now that knows more freedom than the people have in 3 generations.

Iran is not going to be an easy take either. Everyone and their goat knows all about IEDs and booby traps now thanks to everything from ISIS to official US Army training manuals.

I’m afraid, boys, that our big bluffs are being called now. We’ve been seen as a country unwilling to keep our end of a bargain now. We’re hated in much of the world for what we seem to believe is some God granted authority to bring freedom and democracy American style to you and give it to you by God and little sonny Jesus. Indiscriminate air “support” to neighborhoods in Syria and Yemen and Afghanistan that wipe out countless “non-combatants” who had just been eating hummus and flatbread and minding their own damned business. Oops. Intel showed ISIS activity there. Or was it the next ghetto over? Family members and friends killed. In the name of freedom and by Gawd you best be standing for that National Anthem!
 
The United States saved China from the utter massacre being inflicted upon them by the Japanese imperial military. They have been pathetic weaklings for centuries. The Han have been conquered more than possibly any other nation by many invaders, even far smaller armies, near and far, throughout history. Their richest city is Hong Kong and it got that way because British invaders built it for them and managed it until recently.
 
Jimdamick said:
The Chinese are going to end Trump, because the damage they WILL do, and are actually doing now to the US economy (devaluation of the yuan) is going to be staggering.
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It's going to be staggering for them too. Despite the shear number of pro-China rags repeating that this is such a measure to fear, let's explore the effects objectively.

It's true that the devaluation of the Yuan increases the attractiveness of Chinese exports and also will likely increase our trade deficit with China. These are the reasons for the measure and why it is a fitting response to tariffs. This also demonstrate that it is China ignoring US demands for reform and that they are reneging on agreements. The US has demanded a decreased trade deficit with China, by threat of tariffs. China while applying this measure quite directly counter to US demands, has simultaneously halted agricultural imports from the US, thereby intensifying an already offensive posture. Imagine the US government ordering companies to stop buying from a country. They're called sanctions.

Russia also devalued its currency shortly before it collapsed but the posture was not at all similar. Trade between the US and USSR was much smaller in scale. It wasn't a decoupling as the current dynamic is.

It is important to note, the US tariffs are not designed as an attempt to decouple but the Chinese measure is. This proves China's offensive posture and the US defensive posture. The US tariffs are defensive. They seek to increase US exports to China and to apply pressure regarding intellectual property reforms and control of fentanyl killing tens of thousands of Americans.

BUT HASN'T CHINA DEVALUED ITS CURRENCY BEFORE?
Absolutely. In 2016, the last time they did it, they faced the largest capital flight (of any nation) in history. At that time, the country's foreign exchange reserves hemorrhaged over a trillion dollars. Chinese people are still clamoring to get their money out of China.

So why would they do this? And why now? I'm glad you asked. This can give them a much stronger bargaining position, given a US hunger for cheap chinese goods and labor. They are hoping for a US president to win next year who will be eager for a political win by basking in headlines of perceived harmony achieved with China. The same exact reason they did it in 2015-2016. They should be weary that this bleeding cannot be controlled. If the fall takes a momentum of its own, the pain will be far greater for Beijing than for Washington.
 
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The US demands, for which tariffs have been applied have remained constant.
They include:

Reforms for greater respect for intellectual property

Decreased trade deficit

Controlling the flow of fentanyl into the US

Beijing would have us believe that the south China Sea and huawei situations are related. In the south China Sea, it is clear to the world who is the aggressor. With Huawei, yeah I believe what the CIA says.

The US has continuously tempered its demands and offered compromise. It seemed as though the US had compromised enough to make a deal but Beijing reneged in May. They must think that they can get a sweeter deal. I think fuck China and their shitty plastic junk.
 
Furthermore, regarding currency devaluation and capital flight. It's pretty simple, devaluing the currency is exactly how it sounds, the numbers in the wallet represent smaller wealth. This makes the capital flight very easy to understand. What would you do?

The internal response, or rather, the preemptive counter measure by the chinese central government, is to attempt to preserve the wealth of its middle class by converting it to real estate. That is why it directs its construction firms to rapidly build massive sprawling megalopolitan cities for which there are very few or no inhabitants.

They are creating a housing bubble to keep the so called middle-class wealth in China and maintain the value.

It's important to note, China used more sand (actually a vital resource that is scarce) to make concrete in only two years than the US used in an entire century during the greatest period of its economic growth. The gathering of this sand is one of the most destructive environmental crises known.

They are doing this, just to harm the US economically.
 
doublejj said:
China is where they make a lot of plastic products, so it makes sense to recycle back at the source....
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I dont trust them to not just dump it in the ocean in a few years if they don't want it anymore though.

I like the Chinese people that I got to know while in school (was in a stats phd program so got to know a lot of people from different countries). They really are just trying to make a better life for themselves and trying to set it up for as long as possible by reaching out to the rest of the world. And as far as their stealing technology, I kind of think of it as a shovel. It is hard to blame them if they are digging a hole and we let them use a shovel to not make one to use in the future instead of trying to dig with a stick. Same with tech, if something works, they don't really think of it as stealing, they look at it as why would I not use the tool that will do the job the best.

As much as it may suck for a bit, the answer might be to remove our patent system and allow businesses to use anything others have done and come up with a compensation system for the original inventors other than holding the patent.
 
Without consumerism capitalism would fail. I stopped being a "consumer" years ago. We have maybe a 2 gal of trash a week. We buy zero prepared food. We freeze and can most vegetables from the garden. Imagine if everyone cooked at home. We've built a society on consumerism. Too much is never enough...
 
dandyrandy said:
Without consumerism capitalism would fail. I stopped being a "consumer" years ago. We have maybe a 2 gal of trash a week. We buy zero prepared food. We freeze and can most vegetables from the garden. Imagine if everyone cooked at home. We've built a society on consumerism. Too much is never enough...
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Im a big fan of capitalism and consumerism. But would love to be able to buy stuff without packaging materials. So much plastic.
 
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