It's Mueller Time

Herb & Suds

Well-Known Member
Considering the Mueller report came up clean and absolved Trump/campaign on Russia collusion, then you have no basis for requesting his tax records.

Its basically just been a 3 year opposition research campaign with presumption of guilt, which is not how the law works in America.
By law, taxpayer information is supposed to remain confidential. But as University of Virginia law professor George Yin, author of a 2017 article on the law, told NPR, Congress didn't like being dependent on the executive branch to provide tax records.
When the "committee access" provision, as it's known, became law in 1924, Congress had been dealing with taxpayers' information in the Teapot Dome scandal afflicting the Harding administration and in a controversy involving former Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon. Like Trump, he had served in government while refusing to avoid conflicts of interest by letting go of his holdings.
The committee access provision has rarely been invoked, but here's how it would work:

  1. For the party in control of the House or Senate, making the request is easy. It would come from the chair of the House Ways and Means Committee (the House panel that writes tax law), Senate Finance Committee or Joint Committee on Taxation. Democrats have been badgering the Republican chairs of those panels to act since February 2017 without success.
  2. Once a request is made, no floor action is necessary. The request would go to Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, who oversees the IRS — not to the taxpayer in the Oval Office, who would officially be out of the loop. Yin said the 1924 law "gave the tax committees the unqualified right to request the tax returns of any taxpayer."
  3. What would happen next is uncharted territory. Based on recent events, Trump might deploy Justice Department lawyers, and perhaps private lawyers, to fight the request in court. The process might resemble the not-infrequent legal battles over congressional subpoenas for executive branch documents. But the committee access provision has never been before a federal judge.
  4. Were Congress to get access to Trump's returns, it would be easy for lawmakers to disclose the information, despite various privacy protections that exist for taxpayers. The chair or committee with Trump's tax returns could submit them to the full House or Senate if there's a legitimate legislative purpose. At that point, the returns would very likely quickly become available for the public to see on the internet
  5. source:https://www.npr.org/2018/10/11/656610711/congress-really-can-demand-and-get-trumps-tax-returns-here-s-how
 

Herb & Suds

Well-Known Member
https://deadline.com/2019/06/jeanine-pirro-accuses-robert-mueller-of-creating-chaos-and-havoc-1202625596/

what this bitch doesn't understand is that Mueller just wrote a report about the trump campaigns activities...if those activities created chaos and havoc, lay the blame at the feet of those responsible....don't blame the messenger for the contents of the message
Just imagine for a minute, Putin installed people like her and Barr a few million dropped in the right pockets ...Viola New World Order
 

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
the sad thing is, putin doesn't have to bribe them, they're idiots for free....
what's stunning is, it can be all out in the open and yet our 'leaders' are paralyzed worrying about their numbers and re-election- because that is what it boils down to..

Mueller had to tell everyone that the answers all lie within his report (the sheeple are that stupid with limited attention span). It had been suggested that he testify not because there is anything else to report other than what's in the report but because people will only listen if it comes from him directly ie to change the news cycle back.

i knew we were in trouble when I was told a year ago EM is a dinosaur way of contact and that 'nobody looks at it anymore and if you want to get someone's attention, it must be through text'.

there is nothing but 'in the moment' now.

and to all the @schuylaar fans out there (you know who you are) it's a new month; you're back:wink:
 
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Bugeye

Well-Known Member
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/446457-mueller-must-testify-publicly-to-answer-three-critical-questions

In that twinkling zone between man and myth, Robert Muellertranscends the mundane. Even in refusing to reach a conclusion on criminal conduct, he is excused. As Mueller himself declared, we are to ask him no questions or expect any answers beyond his report. But his motivations as special counsel can only be found within an approved range that starts at “selfless” and ends at “heroic.” Representative Mike Quigley defended Mueller’s refusal to reach a conclusion as simply “protecting” President Trump in a moment of “extreme fairness.”

Yet, as I noted previously, Mueller’s position on the investigation has become increasingly conflicted and, at points, unintelligible. As someone who defended Mueller’s motivations against the unrelenting attacks of Trump, I found his press conference to be baffling, and it raised serious concerns over whether some key decisions are easier to reconcile on a political rather than a legal basis. Three decisions stand out that are hard to square with Mueller’s image as an apolitical icon. If he ever deigns to answer questions, his legacy may depend on his explanations.

Refusal to identify grand jury material

One of the most surprising disclosures made by Attorney General William Barr was that he and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein expressly told Mueller to submit his report with grand jury material clearly marked to facilitate the release of a public version. The Justice Department cannot release grand jury material without a court order. Mueller knew that. He also knew his people had to mark the material because they were in the grand jury proceedings.

Thus, Barr and Rosenstein reportedly were dumbfounded to receive a report that did not contain these markings. It meant the public report would be delayed by weeks as the Justice Department waited for Mueller to perform this basic task. Mueller knew it would cause such a delay as many commentators were predicting Barr would postpone the release of the report or even bury it. It left Barr and the Justice Department in the worst possible position and created the false impression of a coverup.

Why would a special counsel directly disobey his superiors on such a demand? There is no legal or logical explanation. What is even more galling is that Mueller said in his press conference that he believed Barr acted in “good faith” in wanting to release the full report. Barr ultimately did so, releasing 98 percent of the report to select members of Congress and 92 percent to the public. However, then came the letter from Mueller.

Surprise letter sent to the attorney general

Five days after submitting his report, Mueller sent a letter objecting that Barr’s summary letter to Congress “did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance” of the work and conclusions reached by his team. He complained that “there is now public confusion about critical aspects of the results of our investigation.”

The letter surprised Barr for good reasons. First, Barr had offered to allow Mueller to read the summary before submitting it. Mueller declined but then sent this letter calling for the release of sections of his report, even though they had not been cleared by Justice Department staff. Second, Barr has known Mueller for decades. Yet, Mueller did not simply pick up the phone to discuss his concerns and possible resolutions or to ask for a meeting. Instead, he undermined Barr with a letter clearly meant to insinuate something improper without actually making such an accusation.

Mueller’s letter also requested something he knew Barr could not do, which is to release uncleared portions of the report, including material later redacted by Justice Department staff. Mueller’s letter is notable in what it did not include, which is an acknowledgment that he was responsible for the need for the summary, as well as much of the delay in the release of the report.

In an earlier meeting, Barr explained that he wanted to quickly release the report and allow the work of the special counsel to speak for itself. To do so, however, Mueller and his people needed to identify material that should be redacted under federal law, which they did not do. While Barr has described Mueller’s letter as “snitty,” it was in fact a sucker punch.

Refusal to reach an obstruction conclusion

The most curious and significant decision by Mueller was refusing to reach a conclusion on presidential obstruction. While entirely ignored by the media, Mueller contradicted himself in first saying that he would have cleared Trump if he could have, but then later saying that he decided not to reach a conclusion on any crime.

I have already addressed why Mueller’s interpretation of memos from the Justice Department Office of Legal Counsel is unprecedented and illogical. He concluded that, in barring the indictment and prosecution of a sitting president, those memos meant prosecutors can investigate but not reach conclusions on possible criminal acts.

It is not just his legal interpretation that is incomprehensible. Mueller was appointed almost two years before he released his report. He was fully aware that Congress, the Justice Department, the media, and the public expected him to reach conclusions on criminal conduct, a basic function of the special counsel. He also was told he should do so by the attorney general and deputy attorney general. Yet, he relied on two highly controversial opinions written by a small office in the Justice Department.

Over those two years, Mueller could have asked his superiors for a decision on this alleged policy barring any conclusions on criminal conduct. More importantly, he could have requested an opinion from the Office of Legal Counsel. That is what the Office of Legal Counsel does, particularly when its own opinions are the cause of confusion. One would think you would be even more motivated to do so, if you intended to ignore the view of the attorney general and his deputy that there is no such policy.

Mueller, however, is an experienced litigator who knows not to ask a question when you do not know the answer or when you know the answer and do not want to hear it. His position is even more curious, given his lack of action after Barr and Rosenstein did precisely what he said could not be done under Justice Department policies. If Mueller believed such conclusions are impermissible, why did he not submit the matter to the Justice Department inspector general?

His press conference captured his report perfectly. It was an effort to allude to possible crimes without, in fairness to the accused, clearly and specifically stating those crimes. Mueller knew that was incrimination by omission. By emphasizing he could not clear Trump of criminality, Mueller knew the press would interpret that as a virtual indictment.

What is concerning is not that each of his three decisions clearly would undermine Trump or Barr but that his decisions ran against the grain for a special counsel. The law favored the other path in each instance. Thus, to use Mueller’s own construction, if we could rule out a political motive, we would have done so. This is why Mueller must testify and must do so publicly.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. You can follow him on Twitter @JonathanTurley.
 

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
spam = stuff that makes me look stupid

edit: Looks like Mueller was possibly doing some deceptive hack jobs in his report meant to mislead?

What does this transcript tell you, other than the fact Trump's legal team was fishing for information?

Heads up for what? Lunch?

Can't name the specific "issue", why? Would it be breaking the law possibly???

Since when is suggesting someone break the law not a crime?

"So uh you know then, we need some kind of a heads up. Just for the sake of protecting all our interests, if we can, WITHOUT YOU HAVING TO GIVE ANY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION. So if it's the former Remember what we've always said about the President and his feelings towards Flynn, and that still remains. BUT, well in any event, let me know. Thanks for your time, bye." LOL

In other words, "we know you're cooperating with the probe. For the sake of protecting all our interests, meaning yours, do so, without having to break your confidentiality agreement. So if you are cooperating with the probe, remember Trump has always thought kindly of you, and the offer to pardon still remains. But if you decide not to assist us, and not shut the fuck up, you're getting nothing".

Anything else? :spew:
 
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UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
What does this transcript tell you, other than the fact Trump's legal team was fishing for information?

Heads up for what? Lunch?

Can't name the specific "issue", why? Would it be breaking the law possibly???

Since when isn't suggesting someone break the law not a crime?

"So uh you know then, we need some kind of a heads up. Just for the sake of protecting all our interests, if we can, WITHOUT YOU HAVING TO GIVE ANY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION. So if it's the former Remember what we've always said about the President and his feelings towards Flynn, and that still remains. BUT, well in any event, let me know. Thanks for your time, bye." LOL

In other words, "we know you're cooperating with the probe. For the sake of protecting all our interests, meaning yours, do so, without having to break your confidentiality agreement. So if you are cooperating with the probe, remember Trump has always thought kindly of you, and the offer to pardon still remains. But if you decide not to assist us, and shut the fuck up, you're getting nothing".

Anything else? :spew:
Seems like a felony to me
 

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
What does this transcript tell you, other than the fact Trump's legal team was fishing for information?

Heads up for what? Lunch?

Can't name the specific "issue", why? Would it be breaking the law possibly???

Since when is suggesting someone break the law not a crime?

"So uh you know then, we need some kind of a heads up. Just for the sake of protecting all our interests, if we can, WITHOUT YOU HAVING TO GIVE ANY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION. So if it's the former Remember what we've always said about the President and his feelings towards Flynn, and that still remains. BUT, well in any event, let me know. Thanks for your time, bye." LOL

In other words, "we know you're cooperating with the probe. For the sake of protecting all our interests, meaning yours, do so, without having to break your confidentiality agreement. So if you are cooperating with the probe, remember Trump has always thought kindly of you, and the offer to pardon still remains. But if you decide not to assist us, and not shut the fuck up, you're getting nothing".

Anything else? :spew:
The actual transcript clearly shows the disqualifier, that he specifically mentions he is not requesting any confidential information that would violate any information laws. In he 400+ page Mueller report, apparently these 2 lines needed to be edited out for some reason? Its clear Mueller was trying to misquote him or change his quote into something illegal/nefarious.

This is all just coming out now, I'm sure people will be pouring over the report now and double checking sources to find any other cases of misrepresentation by Mueller.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
The actual transcript clearly shows the disqualifier, that he specifically mentions he is not requesting any confidential information that would violate any information laws. In he 400+ page Mueller report, apparently these 2 lines needed to be edited out for some reason? Its clear Mueller was trying to misquote him or change his quote into something illegal/nefarious.

This is all just coming out now, I'm sure people will be pouring over the report now and double checking sources to find any other cases of misrepresentation by Mueller.
When you’re attacking FBI agents because you’re under criminal investigation, you’re losing - Sarah huckabee Sanders, friend of dog murderers
 

Herb & Suds

Well-Known Member
The actual transcript clearly shows the disqualifier, that he specifically mentions he is not requesting any confidential information that would violate any information laws. In he 400+ page Mueller report, apparently these 2 lines needed to be edited out for some reason? Its clear Mueller was trying to misquote him or change his quote into something illegal/nefarious.

This is all just coming out now, I'm sure people will be pouring over the report now and double checking sources to find any other cases of misrepresentation by Mueller.
Only if the AG is in Trumpty Dumpty's pocket
Cheat , steal and lie are the norm for the GOP today
 

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
The actual transcript clearly shows the disqualifier, that he specifically mentions he is not requesting any confidential information that would violate any information laws.
Of course he did, he's a damn lawyer, he isn't dumb enough to implicate himself in a crime.

Though i will quote, "So, uhm, and if it's not the former, then, you know, remember what we've always said about Trump and his feelings about Flynn, and that still remains, but, Well in any event, uhm, let me know"

"former" is a direct reference to cooperating with the probe. He says it himself in the 3rd sentence of the transcript. Given the opening sentences, and the context of the message, what is your interpretation of "the former"?

"Remember what we've always said about Trump and his feelings about Flynn" What feelings? Why should he remember?

"Well in any event, uhm, let me know" Which events? Both the former and the latter?

He was just being sympathetic, no innuendo at all...

The actual transcript clearly shows the disqualifier, that he specifically mentions he is not requesting any confidential information that would violate any information laws.
Maybe not, though he would have broken his plea bargain, putting him in jail for longer. Not to worry, Donny would pardon him.

Wonder how that deal is working out for Manafort?

In he 400+ page Mueller report, apparently these 2 lines needed to be edited out for some reason? Its clear Mueller was trying to misquote him or change his quote into something illegal/nefarious.
Uh because it was a summary.

Why wasn't the full report released in the first place?
 

printer

Well-Known Member
It is the economy stupid.

And if that were not enough, most people are more concerned of what is on Facebook today.

And then there are the few other people, well best to quote the article.

But of particular interest was a quote from one Republican local voter, whom NBC News spoke to after the event.


Cathy Garnaat, a Republican who supported Amash and the president said she was upset about Amash’s position but wanted to hear his reasoning. She said that she will definitely support Trump in 2020 but that Tuesday night was the first time she had heard that the Mueller report didn’t completely exonerate the president.


“I was surprised to hear there was anything negative in the Mueller report at all about President Trump. I hadn’t heard that before,” she said. “I’ve mainly listened to conservative news and I hadn’t heard anything negative about that report and President Trump has been exonerated.”


Just to be abundantly clear, my goal is not to pick on a random person in Michigan. The woman is a voter who was interested enough in current events to show up for a town-hall event with her congressman, and I’m glad she was willing to speak with journalists after hearing Amash’s perspective.


And as she said, she gets most of her information off of conservative sites.

So is there going to be much surprise to anyone if the House impeaches and when it goes to the Senate that all sins will be washed clean? Hardly. So what to do? Forego the duty to hold even the President accountable to the law so the few people that have not cared to make up their mind (after all is it obstruction if it is done out in the open?) do not get so sick of it all that they swing Republican in 2020? After all it may also come down to less than 1%, or the College votes. Or play the political game and not start the impeachment proceedings and piss off some of the democratic base where they will think screw you, and not vote in the next election?

Talk about high stakes politics. And it might not make any difference if Trump sends the world economy into a recession or even a depression. Of course if that happens Donny will blame the foreigners and enough people will be grasping for hope and will believe him because to do otherwise would be to come to the realization that they have no one else but themselves to blame.

Oh yeah, the good economy, paid for by your kids future taxes. But no worry, as Trump said, 'I'll be out of office by then."
 

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
because grand jury testimony is not allowed to be released without separate approval. Ask Mueller why he didn't do this, when it was requested of him to get the approval before release.
Mueller has gone on record saying the full report is his testimony. It's in his interest for the full report to be released. His boss, Attorney General Barr forced the release of the report, and instead of releasing it, Barr gave his own summary. Which was conveniently misinterpretated by Barr, to the extent Mueller had to make a statement.

Mueller simply couldn't come to a conclusion, the investigation needed more time. The investigation was inconclusive.

So let me get this straight -

1. George Papadopoulos boasted to Australian diplomat Alexander Downer, that Trump's team had damaging material about Hilary Clinton, held by the Russians.

2. Alexander Downer and his colleague then told Canberra the situation. It was Australian intelligence that sent the message to the FBI.

3. Attorney General Sessions opens the probe into RUSSIAN interference in the election.

4. Session recuses himself from oversight of the investigation, to eliminate any potential bias. He was a Republican, and given the implications of the investigation, for all anyone knew, Sessions could have been part of it all too. Standing down was the absolute right thing to do.

With all this considered, you still believe that it's a Democrat conspiracy, played out by the Democrats and Clinton campaign, as a means to defame Donald Trump and stop him from winning the election? Know how fucking crazy that sounds?

Here's a quote from Alexander Downer regarding Papadopoulos's outrageous claims, that Alexander was working with Clinton - "The sort of idea that there is a kind of ASIS - ASIO - MI6 - MI5 - FBI - CIA - Ukrainian Government conspiracy to bring down the Trump administration, that this is treason, that I should be in Guantanamo Bay...I mean it's a little bit sad that people take that kind of thought seriously". LOL

Ultimately it was a Republican led investigation, and the Republican Attorney General who opened / approved it. ANY accusations of treason must be taken seriously, even if the information is later proven to be false. That's what investigations are for.

Oh, and on the topic of Russian collusion, 34 people charged including 12 Russian intelligence officers and 13 other Russian nationals, 5 of Trump's staffers plead guilty and agreed to cooperate. Please feel free to add any people i missed.

Pretty successful probe into "Russian meddling in the 2016 election" wouldn't you say?
 
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hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/446457-mueller-must-testify-publicly-to-answer-three-critical-questions

In that twinkling zone between man and myth, Robert Muellertranscends the mundane. Even in refusing to reach a conclusion on criminal conduct, he is excused. As Mueller himself declared, we are to ask him no questions or expect any answers beyond his report. But his motivations as special counsel can only be found within an approved range that starts at “selfless” and ends at “heroic.” Representative Mike Quigley defended Mueller’s refusal to reach a conclusion as simply “protecting” President Trump in a moment of “extreme fairness.”

Yet, as I noted previously, Mueller’s position on the investigation has become increasingly conflicted and, at points, unintelligible. As someone who defended Mueller’s motivations against the unrelenting attacks of Trump, I found his press conference to be baffling, and it raised serious concerns over whether some key decisions are easier to reconcile on a political rather than a legal basis. Three decisions stand out that are hard to square with Mueller’s image as an apolitical icon. If he ever deigns to answer questions, his legacy may depend on his explanations.

Refusal to identify grand jury material

One of the most surprising disclosures made by Attorney General William Barr was that he and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein expressly told Mueller to submit his report with grand jury material clearly marked to facilitate the release of a public version. The Justice Department cannot release grand jury material without a court order. Mueller knew that. He also knew his people had to mark the material because they were in the grand jury proceedings.

Thus, Barr and Rosenstein reportedly were dumbfounded to receive a report that did not contain these markings. It meant the public report would be delayed by weeks as the Justice Department waited for Mueller to perform this basic task. Mueller knew it would cause such a delay as many commentators were predicting Barr would postpone the release of the report or even bury it. It left Barr and the Justice Department in the worst possible position and created the false impression of a coverup.

Why would a special counsel directly disobey his superiors on such a demand? There is no legal or logical explanation. What is even more galling is that Mueller said in his press conference that he believed Barr acted in “good faith” in wanting to release the full report. Barr ultimately did so, releasing 98 percent of the report to select members of Congress and 92 percent to the public. However, then came the letter from Mueller.

Surprise letter sent to the attorney general

Five days after submitting his report, Mueller sent a letter objecting that Barr’s summary letter to Congress “did not fully capture the context, nature, and substance” of the work and conclusions reached by his team. He complained that “there is now public confusion about critical aspects of the results of our investigation.”

The letter surprised Barr for good reasons. First, Barr had offered to allow Mueller to read the summary before submitting it. Mueller declined but then sent this letter calling for the release of sections of his report, even though they had not been cleared by Justice Department staff. Second, Barr has known Mueller for decades. Yet, Mueller did not simply pick up the phone to discuss his concerns and possible resolutions or to ask for a meeting. Instead, he undermined Barr with a letter clearly meant to insinuate something improper without actually making such an accusation.

Mueller’s letter also requested something he knew Barr could not do, which is to release uncleared portions of the report, including material later redacted by Justice Department staff. Mueller’s letter is notable in what it did not include, which is an acknowledgment that he was responsible for the need for the summary, as well as much of the delay in the release of the report.

In an earlier meeting, Barr explained that he wanted to quickly release the report and allow the work of the special counsel to speak for itself. To do so, however, Mueller and his people needed to identify material that should be redacted under federal law, which they did not do. While Barr has described Mueller’s letter as “snitty,” it was in fact a sucker punch.

Refusal to reach an obstruction conclusion

The most curious and significant decision by Mueller was refusing to reach a conclusion on presidential obstruction. While entirely ignored by the media, Mueller contradicted himself in first saying that he would have cleared Trump if he could have, but then later saying that he decided not to reach a conclusion on any crime.

I have already addressed why Mueller’s interpretation of memos from the Justice Department Office of Legal Counsel is unprecedented and illogical. He concluded that, in barring the indictment and prosecution of a sitting president, those memos meant prosecutors can investigate but not reach conclusions on possible criminal acts.

It is not just his legal interpretation that is incomprehensible. Mueller was appointed almost two years before he released his report. He was fully aware that Congress, the Justice Department, the media, and the public expected him to reach conclusions on criminal conduct, a basic function of the special counsel. He also was told he should do so by the attorney general and deputy attorney general. Yet, he relied on two highly controversial opinions written by a small office in the Justice Department.

Over those two years, Mueller could have asked his superiors for a decision on this alleged policy barring any conclusions on criminal conduct. More importantly, he could have requested an opinion from the Office of Legal Counsel. That is what the Office of Legal Counsel does, particularly when its own opinions are the cause of confusion. One would think you would be even more motivated to do so, if you intended to ignore the view of the attorney general and his deputy that there is no such policy.

Mueller, however, is an experienced litigator who knows not to ask a question when you do not know the answer or when you know the answer and do not want to hear it. His position is even more curious, given his lack of action after Barr and Rosenstein did precisely what he said could not be done under Justice Department policies. If Mueller believed such conclusions are impermissible, why did he not submit the matter to the Justice Department inspector general?

His press conference captured his report perfectly. It was an effort to allude to possible crimes without, in fairness to the accused, clearly and specifically stating those crimes. Mueller knew that was incrimination by omission. By emphasizing he could not clear Trump of criminality, Mueller knew the press would interpret that as a virtual indictment.

What is concerning is not that each of his three decisions clearly would undermine Trump or Barr but that his decisions ran against the grain for a special counsel. The law favored the other path in each instance. Thus, to use Mueller’s own construction, if we could rule out a political motive, we would have done so. This is why Mueller must testify and must do so publicly.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. You can follow him on Twitter @JonathanTurley.
 
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