Schwaggy P's Random Stuff

Schwaggy P

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
cooltext321271713232758.png

When you hear “structure”, usually it is a catchall term casually used to refer to a plant’s “look” or the integrity of branches. I like to think of structure as the amalgam of individual observable constituent components of the plant.

Structure usually refers to pre-flower characteristics, but structure is something to continue considering through the entire cycle: stretch, branch strength under pressure, specific bud characteristics (this write-up will focus on pre-flower structural considerations).

The amount of consideration given to plant structure is wholly dependent on the goals of the grower. If you are a grower looking for a potent plant that works well in your SCROG setup, you probably aren’t going to spend too much time noting the serration pattern of the leaves. If you are a breeder trying to benchmark the heritability of a set of traits and need to establish whether unrelated phenotypic expressions are linked as they pass along to subsequent generations, you’ll be taking note of the serrations along with vein striations, leaf texture, etc. If you have a cut/cross and want to verify it against parent plants, you’ll want as much observable info possible to make a match.

The most important and most difficult part of any hunt/assessment of plants is to know what you are looking for, or more specifically, what you want to find in any set of characteristics. Ask yourself,
  • What motivated me to grow these seeds?
  • What characteristic(s) was I envisioning when considering popping these seeds?
  • What set of traits would I consider keeper quality?
  • Am I trying to find which parent this leans to?
  • What type of plant would work best in my setup?
  • What traits do I want to see in the progeny of this plant?
If you can answer these questions and prioritize the individual traits, you have a better understanding for what you are looking. Whether you are just assessing new plants from seed, selecting breeding stock, or figuring which parent a cross leans to, having these answers can better guide the effort.

You could only really care about the final smoke effect, and in that case, structure is mostly irrelevant.

One grower’s cull is another grower’s keeper

Structural Components​

INTERNODES
internode.jpg
Internodes are the space between the nodes (junctions of secondary terminal branching, leaf petioles, and main stem)(pic 1). If we assume the different phenos of the same strain will all finish with the same relative height, the plants with longer internodes will have less overall budsites when compared to shorter internoded plants (pic 2,3). Generally, longer internodes foreshadow a more pronounced stretch when flipped to flower (pic 4). The types of plants that express very short internodes tend to be of a sturdier stalk and can be more difficult to manipulate for training (pic 5).
internodes2.jpg

STEM STRENGTH
stem strength.jpg
The integrity of your plant framework is instrumental in the ability to support itself later in flower. Plants with thinner stems tend to need more support throughout maturity (pic 6), while thicker more robust stems can comfortably sustain massive bud growth independently (pic 7).

If you were looking for a plant to max out in a SCROG, you would skew toward the thinner, floppy stemmed plants to more easily weave through your screen. If you prefer to keep your plant support low maintenance, stronger stems will be more desirable.


BRANCHING
branching.jpg
Your plant’s tendency to push out secondary tops that adds to the footprint, yield, and need for support is the branching quality. Some plants will grow as one main stalk with little to no side branching (pic 8). This would be advantageous in a SOG setup as lateral growth is limited. Conversely, a plant more adept at spitting out side growth will respond well to topping techniques for medium sized bushes (pic 9).

In veg, how a plant responds to topping can tell you how reluctant it is to branching. Sometimes, you don’t get an appreciation for a pheno’s ability to branch until the stretch.


PETIOLES
petioles.jpg
Petioles are the stems that connect the leaf to the node of the plant. These come in all sizes and can impact your plant footprint and light penetration. Shorter petioles give the plant a narrow silhouette, great for packing in plants to a space; but can reduce the amount of light that can penetrate the upper canopy (pic 10). Longer petioles demand more square footage but allow far more light into the interior of the plant (pic 11).

A goldilocks balance between the two extremes can offer you the best of both worlds while sidestepping the brunt of the downsides.


LEAF BLADES
leaf.jpg
  • Width
    • Taking note of the leaf blade width can help give you an idea about the phenotype’s leanings to the parents and genetics more generally (pic 12,13).
  • Serration
    • Leaf serration can give you an idea about which parent is expressing in the leaves. Some plants develop a double serration and sporadic double serration (pic 14). Some leaves can have deep serrations that give a buzz saw look to the leaves, while others are shallow and less obvious.
  • Variegation
    • If your plant expresses variegation, you have a peculiar trait that can give insight about which parent expresses and can be used as a marker in breeding (pic 15).
  • Texture
    • The individual blades can have different surface character, being smooth or like gator-skin. Thicker leather-like leaves that have rougher surfaces can offer more surface area and a tougher protection against pests (pic 16).
  • Number
    • The number of blades per leaf can change as the plant develops. Some can start with 3-blades and develop 5-blade leaves (pic 17). Noting the number of blades can also help in plant ID comparison.
  • Size Distribution
    • The relative sizes of the leaf blades can also help ID plant leanings and establish trait heritability. Some blades have a more evenly distributed leaf blade surface area (pic 18), while others can take on a 1:3:1 arrangement (pic 19).
leaf2.jpg

There are some other traits that are flower specific and more in depth for geeking out/breeding (leaf veins, angles of blades, petiole tasting). This should be a decent intro to structure and help spot the differences in phenotypes.
 
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Schwaggy P

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
Trim Scissors Modification​
If you have a ton of trimming to do or a hand/wrist injury, the spring loaded trim scissors can really put a strain on you. I usually make a slight modification to the spring so that there is far less stress on my hands for prolonged trim sessions. It is a pretty simple mod that can really ease trimming.
scissors hotrod.jpg
I think there would be little dispute that the widest used scissors for trimming are based on this model (pic 1).

Tug on one end of the spring to free it from the frame of the scissors (pic 2).

Using wire cutters, trim back the spring (the desired length is a personal choice that trial and error can help figure out. I count about 6 total revolutions worth of spring) (pic 3).

Now you'll have a smaller section and larger section (pic 4).

Using pliers, twist the cut end of the spring to mimic the tighter circle on the other terminal end. This smaller circle will clip onto the scissor frame. (pic 5, 6).

Fasten your modified spring back onto your scissor frame. You may need to do slight adjustments to your twisted end, but the spring should click and seat onto the spring catch of the scissors. You can see the amount of grip workout has been reduced by about 50%. (pic 7).

While trimming, I rarely need to extend the scissors to a fully opened position. This means that with the full sized spring, I'm having to keep it depressed constantly. With the mod, my hands are not constantly flexed trying to keep the blades at a readied position. This has saved me lots of discomfort and shortened trim sessions.
 
CoB_nUt

CoB_nUt

Well-Known Member
Schwaggy P said:
Trim Scissors Modification​
If you have a ton of trimming to do or a hand/wrist injury, the spring loaded trim scissors can really put a strain on you. I usually make a slight modification to the spring so that there is far less stress on my hands for prolonged trim sessions. It is a pretty simple mod that can really ease trimming.
View attachment 4318053
I think there would be little dispute that the widest used scissors for trimming are based on this model (pic 1).

Tug on one end of the spring to free it from the frame of the scissors (pic 2).

Using wire cutters, trim back the spring (the desired length is a personal choice that trial and error can help figure out. I count about 6 total revolutions worth of spring) (pic 3).

Now you'll have a smaller section and larger section (pic 4).

Using pliers, twist the cut end of the spring to mimic the tighter circle on the other terminal end. This smaller circle will clip onto the scissor frame. (pic 5, 6).

Fasten your modified spring back onto your scissor frame. You may need to do slight adjustments to your twisted end, but the spring should click and seat onto the spring catch of the scissors. You can see the amount of grip workout has been reduced by about 50%. (pic 7).

While trimming, I rarely need to extend the scissors to a fully opened position. This means that with the full sized spring, I'm having to keep it depressed constantly. With the mod, my hands are not constantly flexed trying to keep the blades at a readied position. This has saved me lots of discomfort and shortened trim sessions.
Click to expand...
Well done Schwaggy. You've just alleviated a lot of trim jail torture for the community.:clap:
 
outliergenetix

outliergenetix

Well-Known Member
Schwaggy P said:
View attachment 4317308

When you hear “structure”, usually it is a catchall term casually used to refer to a plant’s “look” or the integrity of branches. I like to think of structure as the amalgam of individual observable constituent components of the plant.

Structure usually refers to pre-flower characteristics, but structure is something to continue considering through the entire cycle: stretch, branch strength under pressure, specific bud characteristics (this write-up will focus on pre-flower structural considerations).

The amount of consideration given to plant structure is wholly dependent on the goals of the grower. If you are a grower looking for a potent plant that works well in your SCROG setup, you probably aren’t going to spend too much time noting the serration pattern of the leaves. If you are a breeder trying to benchmark the heritability of a set of traits and need to establish whether unrelated phenotypic expressions are linked as they pass along to subsequent generations, you’ll be taking note of the serrations along with vein striations, leaf texture, etc. If you have a cut/cross and want to verify it against parent plants, you’ll want as much observable info possible to make a match.

The most important and most difficult part of any hunt/assessment of plants is to know what you are looking for, or more specifically, what you want to find in any set of characteristics. Ask yourself,
  • What motivated me to grow these seeds?
  • What characteristic(s) was I envisioning when considering popping these seeds?
  • What set of traits would I consider keeper quality?
  • Am I trying to find which parent this leans to?
  • What type of plant would work best in my setup?
  • What traits do I want to see in the progeny of this plant?
If you can answer these questions and prioritize the individual traits, you have a better understanding for what you are looking. Whether you are just assessing new plants from seed, selecting breeding stock, or figuring which parent a cross leans to, having these answers can better guide the effort.

You could only really care about the final smoke effect, and in that case, structure is mostly irrelevant.

One grower’s cull is another grower’s keeper

Structural Components​

INTERNODES
View attachment 4317309
Internodes are the space between the nodes (junctions of secondary terminal branching, leaf petioles, and main stem)(pic 1). If we assume the different phenos of the same strain will all finish with the same relative height, the plants with longer internodes will have less overall budsites when compared to shorter internoded plants (pic 2,3). Generally, longer internodes foreshadow a more pronounced stretch when flipped to flower (pic 4). The types of plants that express very short internodes tend to be of a sturdier stalk and can be more difficult to manipulate for training (pic 5).
View attachment 4317310

STEM STRENGTH
View attachment 4317312
The integrity of your plant framework is instrumental in the ability to support itself later in flower. Plants with thinner stems tend to need more support throughout maturity (pic 6), while thicker more robust stems can comfortably sustain massive bud growth independently (pic 7).

If you were looking for a plant to max out in a SCROG, you would skew toward the thinner, floppy stemmed plants to more easily weave through your screen. If you prefer to keep your plant support low maintenance, stronger stems will be more desirable.


BRANCHING
View attachment 4317313
Your plant’s tendency to push out secondary tops that adds to the footprint, yield, and need for support is the branching quality. Some plants will grow as one main stalk with little to no side branching (pic 8). This would be advantageous in a SOG setup as lateral growth is limited. Conversely, a plant more adept at spitting out side growth will respond well to topping techniques for medium sized bushes (pic 9).

In veg, how a plant responds to topping can tell you how reluctant it is to branching. Sometimes, you don’t get an appreciation for a pheno’s ability to branch until the stretch.


PETIOLES
View attachment 4317315
Petioles are the stems that connect the leaf to the node of the plant. These come in all sizes and can impact your plant footprint and light penetration. Shorter petioles give the plant a narrow silhouette, great for packing in plants to a space; but can reduce the amount of light that can penetrate the upper canopy (pic 10). Longer petioles demand more square footage but allow far more light into the interior of the plant (pic 11).

A goldilocks balance between the two extremes can offer you the best of both worlds while sidestepping the brunt of the downsides.


LEAF BLADES
View attachment 4317316
  • Width
    • Taking note of the leaf blade width can help give you an idea about the phenotype’s leanings to the parents and genetics more generally (pic 12,13).
  • Serration
    • Leaf serration can give you an idea about which parent is expressing in the leaves. Some plants develop a double serration and sporadic double serration (pic 14). Some leaves can have deep serrations that give a buzz saw look to the leaves, while others are shallow and less obvious.
  • Variegation
    • If your plant expresses variegation, you have a peculiar trait that can give insight about which parent expresses and can be used as a marker in breeding (pic 15).
  • Texture
    • The individual blades can have different surface character, being smooth or like gator-skin. Thicker leather-like leaves that have rougher surfaces can offer more surface area and a tougher protection against pests (pic 16).
  • Number
    • The number of blades per leaf can change as the plant develops. Some can start with 3-blades and develop 5-blade leaves (pic 17). Noting the number of blades can also help in plant ID comparison.
  • Size Distribution
    • The relative sizes of the leaf blades can also help ID plant leanings and establish trait heritability. Some blades have a more evenly distributed leaf blade surface area (pic 18), while others can take on a 1:3:1 arrangement (pic 19).
View attachment 4317319

There are some other traits that are flower specific and more in depth for geeking out/breeding (leaf veins, angles of blades, petiole tasting). This should be a decent intro to structure and help spot the differences in phenotypes.
Click to expand...
man this is awesome info as usual. imma have to go back thru your thread and see what other gems i missed. i forget the name but what do they call it when the nodes are not symetircal. meaning the right branch is offset from the left like a ladder as opped to right next to each other? and in general have you noticed a nutrient or medium working better for pale green variatals? i feel like i have a harder time maintaining health on lighter green more scantily leafed variatals than more bubba looking ones. it is as if i get lockout more with those. i would think it is overfeeding or maybe even underfeeding as it is posisbly cannabilizing the leaves for nutes id, but is there any general rule that pale green plants feed less or more or need more/less of a certain micronutrient
 
Last edited:
Schwaggy P

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
outliergenetix said:
man this is awesome info as usual. imma have to go back thru your thread and see what other gems i missed. i forget the name but what do they call it when the nodes are not symetircal. meaning the right branch is offset from the left like a ladder as opped to right next to each other? and in general have you noticed a nutrient or medium working better for pale green variatals? i feel like i have a harder time maintaining health on lighter green more scantily leafed variatals than more bubba looking ones. it is as if i get lockout more with those. i would think it is overfeeding or maybe even underfeeding as it is posisbly cannabilizing the leaves for nutes id, but is there any general rule that pale green plants feed less or more or need more/less of a certain micronutrient
Click to expand...
Thank you. Alternating phyllotaxy or alternating nodes. I haven't noticed a "rule of thumb" with paler plants. I have noticed the shorter more stout Bubba type plants drink less on average and are more drought tolerant than other types of plants. So it could be that they can do more with less, while the others are in need of a bit more frequent waterings. This could contribute to exhausting the nutrients more quickly when compared to a neighboring afghani line that goes through less watering.
 
outliergenetix

outliergenetix

Well-Known Member
Schwaggy P said:
Thank you. Alternating phyllotaxy or alternating nodes. I haven't noticed a "rule of thumb" with paler plants. I have noticed the shorter more stout Bubba type plants drink less on average and are more drought tolerant than other types of plants. So it could be that they can do more with less, while the others are in need of a bit more frequent waterings. This could contribute to exhausting the nutrients more quickly when compared to a neighboring afghani line that goes through less watering.
Click to expand...
your observation jives with these ssddx jabbas and the jabba f2 i got from you. i need to water the choc tip og's but the ones with bubba in em are still damp. i kinda thoughtit was the shade the bushy wide leaves make over the soil where as theothers are exposed to light all the way to the dirt. in general i find it hard to mess up the darker broad leafe plants. i am sure once i stop doing mixed runs i can dial something in, my issue is prolly i water em all at same time regardless of need atm for time reasons and the cramped space i work in atm
 
Schwaggy P

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
outliergenetix said:
your observation jives with these ssddx jabbas and the jabba f2 i got from you. i need to water the choc tip og's but the ones with bubba in em are still damp. i kinda thoughtit was the shade the bushy wide leaves make over the soil where as theothers are exposed to light all the way to the dirt. in general i find it hard to mess up the darker broad leafe plants. i am sure once i stop doing mixed runs i can dial something in, my issue is prolly i water em all at same time regardless of need atm for time reasons and the cramped space i work in atm
Click to expand...
If I had to guess: the region of the world these stout indica kush plants come from is high elevation mountain ranges with scant rainfall, so with a limited amount of water constantly running away downhill means the plants that can flourish with low water availability with be selected over time. The narrower leafed plants usually come from equatorial regions of high rainfall/humidity, so they aren't used to long drought periods.
 
outliergenetix

outliergenetix

Well-Known Member
Schwaggy P said:
If I had to guess: the region of the world these stout indica kush plants come from is high elevation mountain ranges and desert climates with scant rainfall, so with a limited amount of water constantly running away downhill means the plants that can flourish with low water availability with be selected over time. The narrower leafed plants usually come from equatorial regions of high rainfall/humidity, so they aren't used to long drought periods.
Click to expand...
i heard before that this is why they are dark leaved as well as uv and sunlight is so strong at those altitudes the thinner paler green isnt necessary. my understanding is light green is evolutions way of getting light penetration same with the thin leaves that normally accompany light green variatals
 
outliergenetix

outliergenetix

Well-Known Member
hey brutha i got a question. as you know i am growing out 10 of those jabbas F2's you gave me. they look great but one is deterioratinglike a lockout and it happened for no reason like 2 months into veg. i did nothing different with it. what is your protocol in these situations. do you chalk it up to a weak one in the litter do you still keep clones of these kind to see if a diff regiment of feeding or soil would allow it to express right? or is that a waste of time and i should always just keep the ones that are healthy in my current regiment? i have this happen occasionally and i always feel like imma miss out if i just kill it lol. what do you do with ones that seem to get sick without explaination. here is a close up of the one in question you can see the rest on a post i made in usefuls if you want to see the other 9 healthy ones. also if you have insight into what this problem looks like i'd love to hear it
POOR LIL GUY :(20190417_175946.jpg
 
Schwaggy P

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
outliergenetix said:
hey brutha i got a question. as you know i am growing out 10 of those jabbas F2's you gave me. they look great but one is deterioratinglike a lockout and it happened for no reason like 2 months into veg. i did nothing different with it. what is your protocol in these situations. do you chalk it up to a weak one in the litter do you still keep clones of these kind to see if a diff regiment of feeding or soil would allow it to express right? or is that a waste of time and i should always just keep the ones that are healthy in my current regiment? i have this happen occasionally and i always feel like imma miss out if i just kill it lol. what do you do with ones that seem to get sick without explaination. here is a close up of the one in question you can see the rest on a post i made in usefuls if you want to see the other 9 healthy ones. also if you have insight into what this problem looks like i'd love to hear it
POOR LIL GUY :(View attachment 4319284
Click to expand...
I would try to rehab it based on the symptoms. If she doesn't want to cooperate, then let her go. It looks like it may be potassium deficiency.
kdef.jpg
 
outliergenetix

outliergenetix

Well-Known Member
Schwaggy P said:
I would try to rehab it based on the symptoms. If she doesn't want to cooperate, then let her go. It looks like it may be potassium deficiency.
View attachment 4319296
Click to expand...
hmmm it does look like it but i use langbenite in my teas and soil mix. it has 22% soluble potash and i also have various guanos with solubble potash of diff ratios including a high potash one. if anything i may have over did the potash. could too much cause a lockout ya think or maybe cause identicle symptoms? thanks for the reply as usual also
 
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