HPA optimum root chamber size

[MI.BUDZ]

Not sounding like a jerk, just making observations IMO. I’m retired military and can give and take criticism well.

One huge thing I am considering, are grow rates. Although mega fuzzies are a great scale for a dialed in HPA system, do we have any side by side comparisons of HPA vs any other type of hydro grow?

It is given, LPA cloning is by far the best way to get clones to root.

I do agree HPA does have an advantage, but to what extent? I have seen awesome growth rates in Hybrid NFT rail systems running pressure recirculated. AEssence has a expensive system starting at close to 14K that controls the entire grow but they also do not get the mega fuzzies. They run recirculating in F&D type tubs to monitored and doesed Rez.

Just trying to optimize this opportunity due to it being my first aero endeavor.

 

[dstroy]

2 grows back I experimented with a hybrid lpa/hpa

LPA pump + hpa mist heads

I used a deep cycle timer

View attachment 4281693 View attachment 4281694

Ok petflora

 

[dstroy]

Ive seen the dstroy thread, but the other one was new. Some quick thoughts.

First - Im feeling much better about my roots now. My roots are a long ways from perfect HPA roots, but at their worst, my roots are at least as good as any of those, and the total size of my root ball puts them to shame. I have a 48 gallon root chamber thats is at least 2/3 full of roots - at least. Thanks for posting those. I feel much better now

In that grow thread, if you look closely, you will see that his fuzzy roots are only up hi on the sides of the net pots. Thats the only place out of the direct stream from the misters. The rest of his roots are plain hydro roots because they are getting and staying too wet. Plus he is running waaaaaay too long an ON time = 10 seconds. Remember Atomizer says you only want to run the misters long enough to fill the chamber with micro droplets - no longer. Also, I would not want to run DTW with a setup like that. The over all flow rate would bankrupt you on nute costs, and you would be re-filling the rez every other day. Also note that he changed from a tote to taller buckets. Totes are too short to work well, but buckets are too narrow.

Dstroys roots are not any better as far as fuzzy hairs and for the same reasons - too small a chamber, direct spraying on the roots and too long an ON time.

Your root chamber needs to be much bigger than you are currently planning - if you want lots of fuzzy roots. If roots like you see in those threads are ok, then you will be fine with your current plan.

Jeeze. I just realized Im starting to sound like a jerk. Sorry, but my roots are way better than any of those

Your plants look like shit tho, so there’s that. Might want to fix that big rotten spot problem before you try and talk yourself up. 10 seconds on time? What the fuck.

Sorry, but my plants and yields are way better than yours.

lol

 

[Larry3215]

I do agree HPA does have an advantage, but to what extent? I have seen awesome growth rates in Hybrid NFT rail systems running pressure recirculated. AEssence has a expensive system starting at close to 14K that controls the entire grow but they also do not get the mega fuzzies. They run recirculating in F&D type tubs to monitored and doesed Rez.

Just trying to optimize this opportunity due to it being my first aero endeavor.

I started this because I wanted to get fuzzy roots and to mess around with something new that looked a lot less boring than growing in soil. I like playing with gizmos and gadgets. I dont need extra yield, but that would be a nice added plus, as would quicker harvests, but those are not my main goals.

As far as HPA being better or faster or bigger or tastier than regular hydro, I cant make any of those claims - so far. This is my first HPA grow, and its not complete yet, so I have no numbers to compare yet.

Im still a long ways from being dialed in, and like dstroy said - Im having issues. The main one is I have algae in my water, and just floating around in my environment. I live in the Pacific North West - a rain forest. Mold etc is everywhere. The particular type thats giving me fits has infected my system. What it does is drive the PH up like crazy no matter what I do, plus it kills fuzzy hairs. That has resulted in less than perfect looking plants, but still not all that bad.

I have not seen anyone post any actual side by side grows, so all the claims are just anecdotal as far as Im concerned. If you like messing with stuff, HPA is great fun, but if you want great yields with less effort, almost any other hydro will do you better as far as cost and trouble.

 

[Larry3215]

Your plants look like shit tho, so there’s that. Might want to fix that big rotten spot problem before you try and talk yourself up. 10 seconds on time? What the fuck.

Sorry, but my plants and yields are way better than yours.

lol

Sorry for sounding like I was bashing your grow. You are probably right about your plants looking better than mine, but like I said up-front - this is my first full HPA grow, and only my second hydro grow, and things are not dialed in - especially as far as PH and algae control. I fully admit Im a long ways from having this HPA crap down pat. On the other hand, I dont think Im doing all that bad either.

There is no rotten spot. The camera cant handle the contrast between the super white fuzzy roots and the non-fuzzy roots, so it makes the non-fuzzy parts look brown. Well, thats not 100% true. I have had some dark brown spots in small areas where I had air leaks through the lid and around the net pot. The fuzzy roots do seem to air prune faster than non-fuzzy roots, but those were all small and localized. The bottom side of the upper umbrella shaped root ball also developed some brown areas due to not getting much mist after the top of the chamber filled up wall to wall. They never smelled bad or got soft though.

The brown spots in the pictures dont actually look like that by eye under normal light, but the flash makes it look that way. Plus, the "brown" areas have no smell, and no slimy feel and they are not soft and easily picked off. The chamber and all the roots smell like fresh cut grass or hay.

Its been a while since I first read your thread and I didnt spend a lot of time last night looking at it in detail this time around - just quickly scanned for root pics. I didnt see a lot of fuzzy pics - but maybe I missed those while rushing through. If thats the case, I apologize.

How can you say your yields are more than mine? You have no idea how much Im going to yield this time because I have not cut it down yet. I dont even have more than a guess at this point. Ive got another week or more to go, so we will see.

My last hydro grow - also my first hydro grow - had the same algae issues, but I still managed 559 gms or just under 20 ounces dry from three Blue Dream clones in a mixed hydro setup - F&D, NFT, and Membrane Meniscus. That was in the same tent Im using now - 28" x 38" x 48" under 300 watts of LED's. Im guessing I will be somewhere in that ballpark this time as well, but dont know yet. I doubt it will be significantly more, but it wont be much less either.

My last grow worked out to 1.8 gm/watt or 186 gm per plant or about 75 gm per sq ft - how ever you want to measure it. That was over 79 days total from the time the clones were put into the system. Those are not the best numbers by any means, but not all that bad either. I cant say anything about taste because I dont smoke - I make RSO and then capsules.

In any case, I apologize again if I bashed your thread. I was just trying to compare fuzy roots to fuzzy roots. I admit to being kind of obsessed with fuzzy hairs - even if no one can "prove" they are any better than regular hydro roots.

 

[Atomizer]

The only way I know to get the roots to grow straight down is to over water them, but that means no fuzzy hairs. Plain hydro roots are not bad, but I started this specifically to get fuzzy roots. Ive seen pics of roots that grew mostly down, and had fuzzies, but I have not been able to dial things in that well. I either get fuzzy roots that want to grow any old direction - mostly towards the nozzles - or I get regular hydro roots that want to just grow down.

Either your mist is too fine or there`s not enough of the larger droplets making it to where they need to be. If there is no middle ground between fuzzy umbrella roots and hydro roots that grow down, its a control issue. Figure what settings deliver which variety of roots and try a setting somewhere in the middle of the two. Depending on the results you can then shift the settings more towards the umbrella or the hydro root end until you find the sweet spot where the roots are fuzzy and grow down.

 

[Larry3215]

Either your mist is too fine or there`s not enough of the larger droplets making it to where they need to be. If there is no middle ground between fuzzy umbrella roots and hydro roots that grow down, its a control issue. Figure what settings deliver which variety of roots and try a setting somewhere in the middle of the two. Depending on the results you can then shift the settings more towards the umbrella or the hydro root end until you find the sweet spot where the roots are fuzzy and grow down.

Thats the trick - and I have not mastered it yet. Actually, from early on, I always seemed to have some roots where big drops formed, and they stayed smooth, and went straight for the floor, while the majority got fuzzy and went more sideways and up. Im fairly sure that at least part of the problem is coverage. Ive been obsessed with keeping the flow rates low, so I started out with only three 0.7 GPH nozzles for that 48 gallon chamber. Ive played with timings from 0.4 to 0.9 seconds ON and anywhere from 30 seconds to 90 seconds off. Im currently at 0.9on /41 off with a total of 5 nozzles - one on the bottom feeding the floor roots and three up top above the umbrella and one lost somewhere in the root ball where I cant reach it. Flow rate is around 1.8 gallons per day if my math is correct.

Im not sure the umbrella is all that bad - if you can keep it within reason. Mine is for sure too big though. It has almost completely filled the top 1/2 of the chamber, and has cut it off from the bottom, and has forced me to move the nozzles. Its at least a foot thick and is hard up against the chamber walls about 80% around the perimeter. The three nozzles I moved up top are squeezed into a very tight space with almost no room for the mist to travel anywhere without hitting the roots directly. Of course, that makes it harder to get fuzzies. Im guessing 80% of my root mass is in the umbrella and the rest is on the floor of the chamber.

Next time Im going to do a much shorter veg time and see if I can get to harvest before the chamber fills up.

My biggest problem has been some zombie apocalypse algae crud that just wont stay dead. It has been making PH control in the accumulator almost impossible.

 

[Atomizer]

Running drain to waste and RO should solve the algae issue. I dont allow nutes to see the inside of my aero setups more than once. Prevention is better than cure.

 

[MI.BUDZ]

Running drain to waste and RO should solve the algae issue. I dont allow nutes to see the inside of my aero setups more than once. Prevention is better than cure.

I am planning dtw but curious, how you flush the accumulator or are you adding nutes after the accumulator?

 

[Atomizer]

Not sure what you mean, i use 26gal accumulators and charge them manually with a 160psi pump. I can add any amount from less than 100ml to 40L of nutes. I can predict how long the tank will run for, based on the tank pressure, cycle timing and system flowrate. If i need an extra hour or a full days runtime from a tank i can add just that amount so there`s practically nothing left in the accumulator at the right time. A cup or two of unused veg nutes mixed with 40L of unused bloom nutes isnt a big problem If you charge the accumulator automatically using a pressure switch, it could potentially refill the tank 10 minutes before you plan to switch out the nutes The other thing i dont have is a reservoir of nutes sitting "on offer",waiting for a pressure switch to go click. They`re freshly mixed and a few minutes later they`re inside the accumulator.

 

[Larry3215]

Running drain to waste and RO should solve the algae issue. I dont allow nutes to see the inside of my aero setups more than once. Prevention is better than cure.

I started doing RO part way through veg, but not until after the algae had gotten established in the system. Ive tried to kill the crap several times during the grow, starting with weak, and then with very strong copper and super strong chlorine solutions. The algae gets knocked down for a while, but comes back within a few days - even using RO. I also added UV lights to the rez, which did help keep the rez clean, but doesnt do anything for the tank or the rest of the system. I have been unable to completely kill the algae so far, but all those copper and chlorine treatments, plus having the PH stay way hi for way too long, sure does kill off fuzzies. The plant doesnt like it much either.

 

[Atomizer]

I would live with the algae until the end of the run as it sounds like your causing more grief to the plants than the algae

 

[Larry3215]

I would live with the algae until the end of the run as it sounds like your causing more grief to the plants than the algae

I wish I could, but this has turned out to be one of those damned if you do or dont situations. Treating the algae is problematic because the algae is much harder to kill than my roots or plants - especially fuzzy hairs. Everything else wants to die before the algae even blinks.

On the flip side, where ever the algae takes hold in the roots, there are no fuzzies. The algae kills them or eats them, I dont know, but the roots turn brown and get smooth. Under a USB scope, you can see dark brown blobs growing on the roots.

Probably worse though, is that the algae in the tank, lines etc drives the PH UP way too hi at a ridiculously fast rate. It acts like a super strong alkaline buffer. I can drain the tank, then re-fill with fresh mixed nutes at 5.5, and within less than an hour the PH will be at 6.1. After several hours the tank will be at 6.3. Testing samples drawn right before the solenoids consistantly reads another 0.1 to as much as 0.3 points higher yet. I didnt think to test the solution at the solenoids until recently, so Im sure my plants have spent a ton of time in this grow at PH levels well into the mid 6's and I didnt know it. They are showing strong sings now of nute def issues and stress.

 

[Atomizer]

Are you sure its algae? if the lines are black and the root chamber doesnt have light leaks, it shouldnt be able to get enough of a foothold to cause that kind of issue.

 

[Larry3215]

Are you sure its algae? if the lines are black and the root chamber doesnt have light leaks, it shouldnt be able to get enough of a foothold to cause that kind of issue.

No, I dont know for sure. I have not done any lab testing, so this is all guess work - like most stoner 'science'. The algae diagnosis is just a guess for lack of any real data. Im pretty confident its not your typical "root rot" because there has never been any bad smell, the roots never get soft and mushy or feel slimy. There is just a slight color change and they get smooth. The flash pictures make the 'brown' look much darker than it really is. The 'brown' is really more of a slight off white. USB scope pics show clearly where some root tips that get air pruned as dark brown, but the smooth areas are just off white with small dark brown blobs here and there. Those blobs go away after a heavt treatment. The rez, tank, lines and root chamber have always been below 70F at a max, and are mostly at 66-69F.

Also, adding beneficial bacteria has zero effect, but adding chlorine or copper did stop the spread of the brown blobs. Unfortunately, those two also kill off the fuzzy hairs. However, the fuzzies come back after stopping the treatment - until the algae or what ever re-establishes itself. I am 100% certain it is in my water and just floating around in the air. Sealed containers of RO stay relatively unaffected, if I seal them soon enough, but open ones re-infect fast. RO helps, but is not 100% effective. UV lights in the tank also help, but again not 100%. So far, the combination of chlorine in the 6-10PPM range, UV lights and RO is doing the best, but its taking too much chlorine too often to maintain fuzzy hairs.

As of a couple of days ago, after a series of back to back chlorine treatments, the PH rise in the hi pressure parts of the system is down to 0.1 difference, but so are fuzzy hairs.

 

[PhatNuggz]

I grow with hydro. I was having issues with NPK RAW Microbes. They said I should use enzymes instead