HID Question

[Capn-Crunch]

Growing inside I've always used the "cheap blurples" that everyone loves to trash, so this round I bought 2 400w MH/HPS fixtures.
So far I'm not impressed. I kept the distance close and got fairly stretchy plants in veg compared to my cheap led's, and am not seeing better bud production in flower.
My question, could the brand of the bulbs I'm using be the cause of poor performance, or are most MH/HPS bulbs the same, such as color temp, etc?

 

[Palmerrdgrower]

Growing inside I've always used the "cheap blurples" that everyone loves to trash, so this round I bought 2 400w MH/HPS fixtures.
So far I'm not impressed. I kept the distance close and got fairly stretchy plants in veg compared to my cheap led's, and am not seeing better bud production in flower.
My question, could the brand of the bulbs I'm using be the cause of poor performance, or are most MH/HPS bulbs the same, such as color temp, etc?

Hortulux makes a fine bulb. I use them for veg and bloom. I also have a 400watt cmh that works for both too.

 

[Capn-Crunch]

Thanks for the reply

 

[Thundercat]

How close do you actually have the light? Is it air cooled?

I had a 400mh at one point that I vegged several plants under, and then used it to flower one of the plants that didn't fit under my hps. I had an air cooled hood, and the plant was usually about 4 inches from the glass. It grew big chunky dense buds on that one plant.

 

[DesertPlants]

Never ran MH/HPS, but the CMH I ran with a Hortilux did well. What brand are you using?

 

[JohnDee]

Hi CC,
You do need to look at color temp. Plants respond to red spectrum much differently then they do to blue. Red increases stretching. I'm growing in a new room and have a variety of lights. I just switched from T5-HO to 250w MH for seedlings and it works great. My 400w was too much too soon. So you need to look closely at your bulbs and match them carefully to the task intended.

Oh, and my Sun 250/400 fixture just uses dimming mode (on 400w ballast) to run a 250w. I was surprised to find that was the case...but discovered it when I took the lamp apart (another story). lol
Cheers,
JD

 

[Capn-Crunch]

How close do you actually have the light? Is it air cooled?

I had a 400mh at one point that I vegged several plants under, and then used it to flower one of the plants that didn't fit under my hps. I had an air cooled hood, and the plant was usually about 4 inches from the glass. It grew big chunky dense buds on that one plant.

Never ran MH/HPS, but the CMH I ran with a Hortilux did well. What brand are you using?

Hi CC,
You do need to look at color temp. Plants respond to red spectrum much differently then they do to blue. Red increases stretching. I'm growing in a new room and have a variety of lights. I just switched from T5-HO to 250w MH for seedlings and it works great. My 400w was too much too soon. So you need to look closely at your bulbs and match them carefully to the task intended.

Oh, and my Sun 250/400 fixture just uses dimming mode (on 400w ballast) to run a 250w. I was surprised to find that was the case...but discovered it when I took the lamp apart (another story). lol
Cheers,
JD

Light is not air cooled, it was at 12 to 14 inches as recomended. Heat wasn't an issue, it was the lack of performance
The brand of bulb I'm using is IPower
The MH bulb is 6000k and the HPS is 2100k
I do have a dimable digital ballast 150-250-400

Maybe I'm just expecting better results than I'm getting after hearing so many people praising the MH/HPS
advantage in growing?

 

[JohnDee]

The MH bulb is 6000k and the HPS is 2100k
I do have a dimable digital ballast 150-250-400

Good Mornin' Capn,
Sure you don't have those color temps reversed. MH tends toward lower color temp while HPS usually have more red.

HID bulbs have been the standard for growing for many decades...and only now being overtaken by led. So you're sort of going backward. Blurples aren't all bad. Mostly just weak on white light. I have a blurple supplemented with two 315w cmh for white spectrum. Seems to work OK.

And on your ballast...youshould be able to run smaller bulbs if needed. Dimming an HID down can alter color temp and such. Questions?
JD

 

[Thundercat]

Light is not air cooled, it was at 12 to 14 inches as recomended. Heat wasn't an issue, it was the lack of performance
The brand of bulb I'm using is IPower
The MH bulb is 6000k and the HPS is 2100k
I do have a dimable digital ballast 150-250-400

Maybe I'm just expecting better results than I'm getting after hearing so many people praising the MH/HPS
advantage in growing?

I never actually addressed your question about bulbs. Like others have said though hortilux makes the best spectrum HID bulbs. However when I've tested other bulb companies I have never seen the major difference others claim.

Personally I think 12-14 inches is to high for a 400 watt. How much space where you trying I cover with it? A 400w is only gonna really cover a 2x2 area with good light.

I run my air cooled 1kw about 12-14 inches from my canopy. In all the years I've been growing I've only had one plant get bleached from getting to close and it was because I was gone a few days.

I don't actually care about the spectrum as much as some people talk about it. I'm not satin it doesn't matter. My 400 was a mh with a cheap HTG bulb and it grew bad ass rock hard buds. It did that because I kept it nice and close to the plant it was growing.

The hood being air cooled meant I could have the plant almost touching the glass for the light. My bulb was probably never more then 8 inches from the top of the plant it was over.

I haven't used LED yet, but from all my reading and watching others grow with it I think the biggest reason it gets a bad rap is because people try to use science to act like they don't need to pull as much wattage. If/when I switch my 1k hps room to LED it will be with as close to 1k actual wall draw watts as possible. If I switch it won't be for more "efficiency" like so many LED guys talk about. It's gonna be for more even light coverage. If I can use the same wattage but cover my whole area more evenly with high intensity light I'm certain yields will increase.

 

[JohnDee]

Personally I think 12-14 inches is to high for a 400 watt. How much space where you trying I cover with it? A 400w is only gonna really cover a 2x2 area with good light.

Gotta disagree Thundercat

I did sog on 3x3 tray with 400w for years with great results. What you are suggesting calculates out to 100 watts/square foot. Way too much.

And a 400w over young plants needs some distance. 12"-14" is as close as I'd ever get with a 400w.

And color temp matters...especially when he's having stretch issues.
JD

PS CC...Ignore my comment about your bulbs color temp. I was stoned last night so call it a senior moment exacerbated by thc dyslexia

 

[Thundercat]

Gotta disagree Thundercat

I did sog on 3x3 tray with 400w for years with great results. What you are suggesting calculates out to 100 watts/square foot. Way too much.

And a 400w over young plants needs some distance. 12"-14" is as close as I'd ever get with a 400w.

And color temp matters...especially when he's having stretch issues.
JD

I was specifically referring to flowering with it FYI. Obviously young plants should be a little father away. I don't remember how high I had the 400 when I was vegging with it. Once I started flowering though I only needed to have one plant under it so I got the light nice and close and ONLY had awesome results. There is zero reason you can't get a 400w closer then 12 inches unless you are having heat issues at the leaf surface. 8 inches is totally doable if you cool the light and will maximize the useage of the light output. The close you get the deeper it can penetrate too.

You can definitely get good results in a 3x3 with only 400w, glad it worked well for you. I'm tying to clue in on things that might help him get the MAX results he wants. I could flower a 5x5 or 6x6 with my 1k instead of a 4x4 but I would get way lower intensity on my plants and less penetration into my canopy if I raised I high enough to do that.

As far as spectrum and stretch, he said he has a MH which would be the optimal spectrum for veg. Which leads me back to him potentially having the light to high if he has stretch issues.

I don't use HID for my small seedlings and clones. I built a custom 200w cfl fixture years ago for that. It works great while they are little and as soon as they have a few leaves and some roots they go into my veg tray under a T5. Then 1-2 weeks later they go straight under my 1k hps.

 

[DocktaGreenThumb]

Light is not air cooled, it was at 12 to 14 inches as recomended. Heat wasn't an issue, it was the lack of performance
The brand of bulb I'm using is IPower
The MH bulb is 6000k and the HPS is 2100k
I do have a dimable digital ballast 150-250-400

Maybe I'm just expecting better results than I'm getting after hearing so many people praising the MH/HPS
advantage in growing?

I'd have to say your original prob is using the iPower bulbs. While the equipment is good and dependable, there bulbs suck..

Snag a Super Hortilux or Ushio.

Also, I can't understand why people choose to veg with anything but T5. Node spacing, power consumption and overall performance outdoes anything else ive seen. (400 600 & 1000w MH just doesnt compare.

Veg T5 8-12" from canopy, flower with 1000w HPS Hortilux air cooled...never fails

 

[Rider101]

HID lights produce 0.5 grams to 1.0 grams per watt. LED lights produce 0.5 grams per watt.

If your not using hydroponics and pushing your plants to the limit using LED or HID lights wont make much of a difference.

FYI 400 watts of hid is about $150 400 watts of LED is about $800 enough said.

BTW i work at a legal cannabis producer here in Canada and we have done side by side grows, none of the LED lights outproduced HPS lights watt for watt.

 

[Capn-Crunch]

Good Mornin' Capn,
Sure you don't have those color temps reversed. MH tends toward lower color temp while HPS usually have more red.

HID bulbs have been the standard for growing for many decades...and only now being overtaken by led. So you're sort of going backward. Blurples aren't all bad. Mostly just weak on white light. I have a blurple supplemented with two 315w cmh for white spectrum. Seems to work OK.

And on your ballast...youshould be able to run smaller bulbs if needed. Dimming an HID down can alter color temp and such. Questions?
JD

Nope on mixing up the color temp.
I'm not saying blurples are bad. I have 4 600w (250 at the wall) lights and do very well with them. I've never used anything other than the led's and T5's, but all the "guru's" said HID was better, so trying them out.

 

[Capn-Crunch]

I never actually addressed your question about bulbs. Like others have said though hortilux makes the best spectrum HID bulbs. However when I've tested other bulb companies I have never seen the major difference others claim.

Personally I think 12-14 inches is to high for a 400 watt. How much space where you trying I cover with it? A 400w is only gonna really cover a 2x2 area with good light.

I run my air cooled 1kw about 12-14 inches from my canopy. In all the years I've been growing I've only had one plant get bleached from getting to close and it was because I was gone a few days.

I don't actually care about the spectrum as much as some people talk about it. I'm not satin it doesn't matter. My 400 was a mh with a cheap HTG bulb and it grew bad ass rock hard buds. It did that because I kept it nice and close to the plant it was growing.

The hood being air cooled meant I could have the plant almost touching the glass for the light. My bulb was probably never more then 8 inches from the top of the plant it was over.

I haven't used LED yet, but from all my reading and watching others grow with it I think the biggest reason it gets a bad rap is because people try to use science to act like they don't need to pull as much wattage. If/when I switch my 1k hps room to LED it will be with as close to 1k actual wall draw watts as possible. If I switch it won't be for more "efficiency" like so many LED guys talk about. It's gonna be for more even light coverage. If I can use the same wattage but cover my whole area more evenly with high intensity light I'm certain yields will increase.

I used this chart from Ilovegrowingmarajuna.com because my lights are just wing reflectors
150W 5-11 inches
250W 6-13 inches
400W 8-19 inches
600W 9-25 inches
1000W 11-31 inches
The space I had them in was 2.5' x 5.0'

 

[SPLFreak808]

1000w of led to 800w of hid?

Did you adjust your temps to make up for the extra IR? Are you using a sealed hood?

Are you using individual mh/hps bulbs or dual arcs?

 

[Capn-Crunch]

I'd have to say your original prob is using the iPower bulbs. While the equipment is good and dependable, there bulbs suck..

Snag a Super Hortilux or Ushio.

Also, I can't understand why people choose to veg with anything but T5. Node spacing, power consumption and overall performance outdoes anything else ive seen. (400 600 & 1000w MH just doesnt compare.

Veg T5 8-12" from canopy, flower with 1000w HPS Hortilux air cooled...never fails

I actually prefer to veg with my led's because I get super tight node spacing which I happen to like.
I agree a better bulb may help

 

[Capn-Crunch]

1000w of led to 800w of hid?

Did you adjust your temps to make up for the extra IR? Are you using a sealed hood?

Are you using individual mh/hps bulbs or dual arcs?

Individual mogul base bulbs

 

[Capn-Crunch]

FYI 400 watts of hid is about $150 400 watts of LED is about $800 enough said.

Not sure what the money amounts are about?

 

[SPLFreak808]

Individual mogul base bulbs

Yeah weird, when i moved from hps to led i got shorter plants with leafy top colas but no longer had heavy rocks for nugs.

Which blurples were you using?