Scientist says all cannabis basically the same?

[whitebb2727]

I agree.

1) Offering their best establishes them as a good breeder of highest quality seeds (if their "best" are objectively excellent seeds).

2) The reputation creates demand, which allows them to charge a premium price.

3) They are motivated to maintain this quality in order to maintain the reputation.

4) Even if they sell 95% of their "best" stock, they still likely have more of these "best" seeds than they could ever grow personally.

The thing with reputation is that it can be ruined in a very short time, and sometimes it is due to others with malicious intent.

Yea. You see it a lot on here.

I've seen threads calling certian breeders and seedbanks thieves and other things. I know otherwise because I've dealt with them personally.

It's usually new accounts. Some may be real but I think most are just other Banks and breeders stirring shit.

 

[cogitech]

Yea. You see it a lot on here.

I've seen threads calling certian breeders and seedbanks thieves and other things. I know otherwise because I've dealt with them personally.

It's usually new accounts. Some may be real but I think most are just other Banks and breeders stirring shit.

I've only been around this site and into the hobby of growing for a short time, but already I have seen that it is a bit of a battleground when it comes to breeders and seedbanks. This has come as a surprise to me, and I have already decided that I basically can't trust most of what is said about breeders and seedbanks on the Internet.

As a hobbiest, I have the luxury of simply rolling the dice and seeing what happens. For those in this for business/money, the stakes are higher (pun intended) and I can see how it would be very tricky to weed out (pun intended) all the sketchy breeders/seedbanks with so much mis-information mixed in with the good. Not only are their good and bad breeders/seedbanks, but there is good and bad information, too. So you can end up with bad information on good breeders or good information on bad breeders, and everything in between.

People around here LOVE to beat up on Crop King Seeds. I didn't know this before ordering some CB Dream fems from them. I had no issues with the order/delivery at all, got a bunch of free swag with the seeds, and the one bean that I have popped is growing extremely well. Glad I ordered from them before reading about how terrible they are on this site.

All of this has also inspired me to just get a bunch of stuff from various seedbanks, see how they grow and smoke, and chuck my own pollen so I have a lifetime supply of "probably decent" seeds to grow. There are many other factors that contribute to the quality of the smoke - all of which I have much more control over than the genes.

 

[Tim1987]

Are you guys serious?

How else do they keep consistency in the MILLIONS of seeds going out the door each year???
How can they even claim a consistent strain without seeding a cultivar with the single male cultivar?
They're just seeding cuts.
Not interested in seeded cuttings.
Interested in the seeds the cuttings came from. They're the seed I want.
In my opinion these are the good seeds. Theoretically more vigor and genetic variety. Thousands of potential parents. It's variation, and choice.

Why hand out your breeding seeds like hot cakes?

FYI.
Pollen "chuckers" I believe to be, the best breeders out there.
Best growers I have known, grow bush.
Generations of their own seed.
But carefully choose their males.

Ironically, all my parents long time friends, that have just kept seeding their own.

I'm not interested in seeds off a cultivar.
I'll take the seeds, the cultivar came from.

Commercially, how would you sell these, and claim a consistent product?
How would you produce millions, and millions of the SAME seeds each year?
Isn't product consistency part of good business planning?

 

[whitebb2727]

Are you guys serious?

How else do they keep consistency in the MILLIONS of seeds going out the door each year???
How can they even claim a consistent strain without seeding a cultivar with the single male cultivar?
They're just seeding cuts.
Not interested in seeded cuttings.
Interested in the seeds the cuttings came from. They're the seed I want.
In my opinion these are the good seeds. Theoretically more vigor and genetic variety. Thousands of potential parents. It's variation, and choice.

Why hand out your breeding seeds like hot cakes?

FYI.
Pollen "chuckers" I believe to be, the best breeders out there.
Best growers I have known, grow bush.
Generations of their own seed.
But carefully choose their males.

Ironically, all my parents long time friends, that have just kept seeding their own.

I'm not interested in seeds off a cultivar.
I'll take the seeds, the cultivar came from.

Commercially, how would you sell these, and claim a consistent product?
How would you produce millions, and millions of the SAME seeds each year?
Isn't product consistency part of good business planning?

Nah. There some legit guys out there.

Some putting real work in and some willing to give you the info you want.

We've told you this several times. Just email and ask.

Seedfinder is a great site that gives strain lineage.

I've only been around this site and into the hobby of growing for a short time, but already I have seen that it is a bit of a battleground when it comes to breeders and seedbanks. This has come as a surprise to me, and I have already decided that I basically can't trust most of what is said about breeders and seedbanks on the Internet.

As a hobbiest, I have the luxury of simply rolling the dice and seeing what happens. For those in this for business/money, the stakes are higher (pun intended) and I can see how it would be very tricky to weed out (pun intended) all the sketchy breeders/seedbanks with so much mis-information mixed in with the good. Not only are their good and bad breeders/seedbanks, but there is good and bad information, too. So you can end up with bad information on good breeders or good information on bad breeders, and everything in between.

People around here LOVE to beat up on Crop King Seeds. I didn't know this before ordering some CB Dream fems from them. I had no issues with the order/delivery at all, got a bunch of free swag with the seeds, and the one bean that I have popped is growing extremely well. Glad I ordered from them before reading about how terrible they are on this site.

All of this has also inspired me to just get a bunch of stuff from various seedbanks, see how they grow and smoke, and chuck my own pollen so I have a lifetime supply of "probably decent" seeds to grow. There are many other factors that contribute to the quality of the smoke - all of which I have much more control over than the genes.

Some of the breeders I like are: cannaventure, Greenpoint, female seeds, blimburn, Ace, hazeman, mephisto, Buddha, shoreline, dinafem and many more.

If a person just takes the time to search grow journal for the strain and breeder they will have the info they want.

Seedfinder will give lots of info like strain history and who has it in stock.

 

[cogitech]

Are you guys serious?

How else do they keep consistency in the MILLIONS of seeds going out the door each year???
How can they even claim a consistent strain without seeding a cultivar with the single male cultivar?
They're just seeding cuts.
Not interested in seeded cuttings.
Interested in the seeds the cuttings came from. They're the seed I want.
In my opinion these are the good seeds. Theoretically more vigor and genetic variety. Thousands of potential parents. It's variation, and choice.

Why hand out your breeding seeds like hot cakes?

FYI.
Pollen "chuckers" I believe to be, the best breeders out there.
Best growers I have known, grow bush.
Generations of their own seed.
But carefully choose their males.

Ironically, all my parents long time friends, that have just kept seeding their own.

I'm not interested in seeds off a cultivar.
I'll take the seeds, the cultivar came from.

Commercially, how would you sell these, and claim a consistent product?
How would you produce millions, and millions of the SAME seeds each year?
Isn't product consistency part of good business planning?

If the genetics are bred to be stable, then seeds from cuttings should show very little variation from the parent seeds.

Also, is there any solid evidence that these breeders/seedbanks are actually maintaining consistency over millions of seeds? If so, why are so many strains being "lost" by breeding?

 

[Tim1987]

Nah. There some legit guys out there.

Some putting real work in and some willing to give you the info you want.

We've told you this several times. Just email and ask.

Seedfinder is a great site that gives strain lineage.


Some of the breeders I like are: cannaventure, Greenpoint, female seeds, blimburn, Ace, hazeman, mephisto, Buddha, shoreline, dinafem and many more.

If a person just takes the time to search grow journal for the strain and breeder they will have the info they want.

Seedfinder will give lots of info like strain history and who has it in stock.

Ok.
Great. Thanks.
Who is a breeder someone can confirm will sell seeds like this?
Please recommend.

I'll be emailing them.
Thank you.

 

[Tim1987]

If the genetics are bred to be stable, then seeds from cuttings should show very little variation from the parent seeds.

Also, is there any solid evidence that these breeders/seedbanks are actually maintaining consistency over millions of seeds? If so, why are so many strains being "lost" by breeding?

Thats what is bad dude!
I want the parent seeds.
Not seeds from the parents.

And yes.
The strain is like a brand name.
Why grow variety and tarnish your brand?

 

[Gquebed]

Many (most?) who smoked in the 60s, 70s would agree with your statement. In my opinion cannabis changed sometime after I quit growing after 95.

Since I started again 3 years ago I've been very disappointed with what's offered out there, no breeder got the killer or we'd all know about it and I'd be lined up to buy it too!

In my opinion it's all mediocre, so in that sense I also kind of see it as all the same I suppose ..meh, wish the hell I'd kept my seeds..

It's hard to believe that in 20, maybe 30 years tops all that good bud we knew and loved all disappeared ?? At the same time if people were still growing it I would think we would have seen it come out by now, so I'm not overly encouraged but still hopeful..

Homogenization.
Lots of pollen chuckers out there pretending to be breeders.
Throw some pollen from A onto B and call it a new strain C. A one off.
Then pollen from D gets tossed on new strain C and is called E. Another one off.

And so on. And so on. Until everything is pretty much the same.

Like mixing all the sodas at 7-11. Shit mix....

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

Homogenization.
Lots of pollen chuckers out there pretending to be breeders.
Throw some pollen from A onto B and call it a new strain C. A one off.
Then pollen from D gets tossed on new strain C and is called E. Another one off.

And so on. And so on. Until everything is pretty much the same.

Like mixing all the sodas at 7-11. Shit mix....

we called that a suicide...for a reason...
i think this ^ is one of the reasons i see strains pop up then disappear at a lot of banks. they "breeder" can't keep reproducing seeds that will give you anything close to a consistent line of plants. they get lucky, make a few thousand s1s, then move on to the next flavor of the week

 

[cogitech]

I want the parent seeds.
Not seeds from the parents.

That's an infinite regression, dude!

"I don't want the parent seeds, I want the parents' parent seeds..." ad infinitum.

All seeds have parents. How far back do you want to go?

Back in the day (mid-late 80's) we used to get brick weed and other junk that was full of seeds. I think most of us remember this stuff. Well, I knew some dudes that would take those seeds and grow them, because that's all they had access to. The consistency of what they grew was very high. The kids were like the parents and the grandkids were like the grandparents, and so on and so forth. These dudes didn't "save" the original "parent seeds" because each generation of seeds was virtually identical. I suspect that this was because all the seeds were one landrace strain that had lived and breeded and cross-breeded long enough to stabilize the genetics.

So if a breeder does the work to stabilize a strain, and then you buy regular seeds from that breeder, you should be getting exactly what you pay for and you should have no need or desire to get "the parent seeds", or the "parents' parent seeds". In fact, you should be able to do same-strain pollen chucking and continue to produce that strain consistently generation after generation.

If breeders are releasing unstable F1s with 3 or 4 phenotypes and calling it a strain, then they are fucking hacks and you should avoid their "strains". Who cares what parents they are using. JMO

 

[Tim1987]

I r

That's an infinite regression, dude!

"I don't want the parent seeds, I want the parents' parent seeds..." ad infinitum.

All seeds have parents. How far back do you want to go?

Back in the day (mid-late 80's) we used to get brick weed and other junk that was full of seeds. I think most of us remember this stuff. Well, I knew some dudes that would take those seeds and grow them, because that's all they had access to. The consistency of what they grew was very high. The kids were like the parents and the grandkids were like the grandparents, and so on and so forth. These dudes didn't "save" the original "parent seeds" because each generation of seeds was virtually identical. I suspect that this was because all the seeds were one landrace strain that had lived and breeded and cross-breeded long enough to stabilize the genetics.

So if a breeder does the work to stabilize a strain, and then you buy regular seeds from that breeder, you should be getting exactly what you pay for and you should have no need or desire to get "the parent seeds", or the "parents' parent seeds". In fact, you should be able to do same-strain pollen chucking and continue to produce that strain consistently generation after generation.

If breeders are releasing unstable F1s with 3 or 4 phenotypes and calling it a strain, then they are fucking hacks and you should avoid their "strains". Who cares what parents they are using. JMO

Yes.
I completely agree.
But barely any commercial "breeders" are doing these things.
Most are getting in for the quick cash grab, and growing whatever. Which is generally whichever strain is popular at the time.

Think about roses and apples. Some varieties of apple like Granny Smith, and Red Delicious, simply wouldnt be the same. Or called the same anymore. If they weren't still grown from a cultivar.
Its the reason they almost always look and taste the same too.

Well its the same thing going on with pot.
I personally want some of the parent seeds, the parent Granny Smith cultivar came from. If thats a good enough analogy.

Breeders are giving their "strains" the same name. When they're not.
And its all for the money.

 

[cogitech]

I r


Yes.
I completely agree.
But barely any commercial "breeders" are doing these things.
Most are getting in for the quick cash grab, and growing whatever. Which is generally whichever strain is popular at the time.

Think about roses and apples. Some varieties of apple like Granny Smith, and Red Delicious, simply wouldnt be the same. Or called the same anymore. If they weren't still grown from a cultivar.
Its the reason they almost always look and taste the same too.

Well its the same thing going on with pot.
I personally want some of the parent seeds, the parent Granny Smith cultivar came from. If thats a good enough analogy.

Breeders are giving their "strains" the same name. When they're not.
And its all for the money.

Totally agree about a lot of current "breeders" (based on some brief but fairly thorough reading/research). Sounds like you want to get hold of original landrace seeds. Lots of people want them, it seems.

 

[cogitech]

One thing to note:

If a "boutique" breeder is 100% forthcoming regarding what they are selling, I see no problem with it - because at least you can make an informed decision.

If it says "F1 hybrid with 3 phenos, 2 of which are high CBD" then it is up to you.

Check out CBD Crew's descriptions, for example: http://cbdcrew.org/varieties/cbd-therapy/

I would be VERY confident buying CBD Crew seeds, if that's what I was looking for and I was willing to do the work of selecting the pheno for my needs.

However, if it says "stabilized strain" and you end up with 3 or 4 phenos then fuck that "breeder".

 

[Tim1987]

One thing to note:

If a "boutique" breeder is 100% forthcoming regarding what they are selling, I see no problem with it - because at least you can make an informed decision.

If it says "F1 hybrid with 3 phenos, 2 of which are high CBD" then it is up to you.

Check out CBD Crew's descriptions, for example: http://cbdcrew.org/varieties/cbd-therapy/ I would be VERY confident buying CBD Crew seeds, if that's what I was looking for and I was willing to do the work of selecting the pheno for my needs.

However, if it says "stabilized strain" and you end up with 3 or 4 phenos then fuck that "breeder".

Thanks heaps mate.
Its exactly how i feel too.

Thank you for the link.
Checking them out and book marking now

 

[Lucky Luke]

Bodhi is another well known breeder. If your chasing a strain he does then email him. I haven't grown anything by him but his reputation is extremely good (as seen on RIU). Often as Breeders move onto other projects they will run out of stock of a strain. Space is always a limitation and the best breeders do it more for love than money. Wonderland nursery and placers like that have helped keep strains from dying out.

I'm growing a CBD Shark atm for my wife and a couple friends. I shall have to do that CBD test

There can be more to buying seeds than just logging onto a seedbank and picking the cheapest thing.
If you watched the video above what wins cannabis cups is terpenes not THC levels. So what strains suit your environment to make the most of the plants terpen profiles?
One thing for sure, I wont be going back to growing bag seed. To much time and $ invested in an indoor grow of any size to do that.


Edit: seems like Bohdi may have lost his Snow Lotus male so get in quick if theres any of those lines your after.

 

[Heisenberg]

Homogenization.
Lots of pollen chuckers out there pretending to be breeders.
Throw some pollen from A onto B and call it a new strain C. A one off.
Then pollen from D gets tossed on new strain C and is called E. Another one off.

And so on. And so on. Until everything is pretty much the same.

Like mixing all the sodas at 7-11. Shit mix....

This is also obvious when a strain name becomes popular and then suddenly everyone has their own version. Oh, Snoop Dogg says Cookie Blaze Bomber is the shit, and now everyone wants it? Better get a cutting and knock it up with some kush pollen, and now we have the Blazing Kush Bomb. The description will say "We took our epic kush male and crossed it with the legendary Blaze Bomb mother, and the results were amazing!" What it should really say is "We threw some pollen on a cutting we were told was real a few months ago and these are the seeds."

I learned to not pay attention to descriptions a long time ago. The best you can do is get the photoperiod you want and maybe shoot for a flavor profile, and hope for the best. You'll end up with a lot of shit and some keepers, which is exactly the same as if you carefully select among the descriptions what sounds best. That isn't because all weed is the same, it's because nature likes to resist being controlled and most breeders aren't very good at it. To control nature, you must first understand her, but to be a successful breeder, you just need to understand the business.

 

[whitebb2727]

One thing to note:

If a "boutique" breeder is 100% forthcoming regarding what they are selling, I see no problem with it - because at least you can make an informed decision.

If it says "F1 hybrid with 3 phenos, 2 of which are high CBD" then it is up to you.

Check out CBD Crew's descriptions, for example: http://cbdcrew.org/varieties/cbd-therapy/

I would be VERY confident buying CBD Crew seeds, if that's what I was looking for and I was willing to do the work of selecting the pheno for my needs.

However, if it says "stabilized strain" and you end up with 3 or 4 phenos then fuck that "breeder".

What? Dude just 3 or 4 phenos is a very well worked line.

F1 crosses are quit common in cannabis and vegetables.

F1 perform fairly uniform and you get hybrid vigor.

I prefer heirloom lines that I can save seed. I also grow a lot of F1 hybrid crops because they perform well.

I don't mind buying a f1 cross if the sole purpose is production.

If the breeder keeps the same cuts and always offers F1 of that cross they will perform the same.

You get all the different phenos f2 and further to a point then becoming more uniform again.

If a breeder makes F1 crosses and takes the time to keep the same cuts and keep them organized for years to provide a stable product then I don't mind.

 

[cogitech]

Thanks heaps mate.
Its exactly how i feel too.

Thank you for the link.
Checking them out and book marking now

Some others that I have discovered that seem to be legit and forthcoming about what they are selling (no, I am not a shill):

http://www.peakseedsbc.com/seeds.htm

https://whitebuffalo.co/

If I ever feel the need to buy some more seeds, I'll be giving them a chance to impress me.

 

[cogitech]

What? Dude just 3 or 4 phenos is a very well worked line.

F1 crosses are quit common in cannabis and vegetables.

F1 perform fairly uniform and you get hybrid vigor.

I prefer heirloom lines that I can save seed. I also grow a lot of F1 hybrid crops because they perform well.

I don't mind buying a f1 cross if the sole purpose is production.

If the breeder keeps the same cuts and always offers F1 of that cross they will perform the same.

You get all the different phenos f2 and further to a point then becoming more uniform again.

If a breeder makes F1 crosses and takes the time to keep the same cuts and keep them organized for years to provide a stable product then I don't mind.

As I said, if the breeder offers full disclosure then I have no issue. If a breeder states that it is a pure stable strain and then sends out F1 hybrids, then that is bullshit. If they say it is an F1 hybrid and they send out an F1 hybrid, then fine.

These folks say exactly what they are selling, for example: http://www.peakseedsbc.com/seeds.htm

 

[Lucky Luke]

Seeds are always going to have some variations, that's a good thing.

If looking for more uniformity then a mother and clones are the way to go.