Soil organic matter(SOM)

[MustangStudFarm]

What were you using to amend for the calcium and magnesium?

Glacial rock dust, Basalt, Kelp, and Oyster Shell Flour...

 

[rikdabrick]

We started using Logan Labs because of this "High Brix" online group said that they are the company that they used and the tests ended up 1/2 the price as Spectrum labs. It was the High Brix group that gave me the idea to use rock dusts instead of the Lab recommendations. I am positive that I have more Ca, Mg, and trace minerals than the tests are showing. It's just going to take it longer to break down... I was about to use some Epsom salt, but that is what brought my attention to the Sulfur count on my test. I am very close to getting the excessive #'s out of my soil tests and I guess that high S is not too bad but my Ph is 6.2 and I am afraid that it will keep dropping. I don't know how much the rock dust is going to buffer against the S?

Dangers of nitrogen overuse include: zinc deficiency, copper deficiency, burnt out organic humus and microbes, drives out calcium but leaves magnesium (tighter soil) and depletes sulfur. The more nitrogen that is applied in excessive amounts; the higher the replacement level of the other nutrients that were carried away by the leached nitrogen will have to be.

Nitrogen and sulfur can leach out calcium. Nitrogen never leaches out magnesium, only sulfur does. The best methods to stabilize proper nitrogen levels are to use and incorporate cover crops, composts and manures before, during, and after each crop growing cycle.

The reason for getting the K3 test at Spectrum if you're running a lightweight mix is because they actually weigh it out instead of just using their "calibrated" scoop like every soil testing facility does. You can get somewhat close numbers by getting the scoop weight from Logan Labs or weighing your soil yourself and using the weight of your soil to calculate it with the field soil numbers you (kind of) get with the scoop they use. If you got your soil tested within the last 3 weeks from Logan Labs you can probably get the scoop weight % still. Just call and ask them. It's free.

I disagree with the info that nitrogen leaches out calcium? That shouldn't be the case. Calcium has a double positive charge and has the third strongest hold of common elements in the soil behind aluminium and hydrogen. Ammonium only has a single positive charge that has equal holding ability as potassium which is a weaker charge than Al, Ca or Mg so it shouldn't be able to displace it off of the cation exchange sites unless there is a ridiculous amount of it. And nitrate is an anion and doesn't compete for exchange sites in the soil against Ca and it doesn't make compounds with Ca either (naturally) which is why calcium nitrate is such a quick acting form of Ca and NO3 because they dissipate really quickly.

And sulfur is an anion also and dissipates from Ca really quick in the soil profile so it shouldn't leach out Ca either which is why gypsum is a fairly quick acting fertilizer. It doesn't stay as a compound for very long. The sulfur will leach, but the Ca will stay. Sulfur and boron are the two most mobile elements (not including nitrogen) and are apt to continuously move down through the soil profile if they are not taken up by plants. I'm not aware of sulfur leaching out Mg either. Anions and cations don't stay as compounds in soil for very long and compete for different exchange sites.

Excess NO4 is antagonistic to the uptake of Ca, Mg, K and Mo, but it doesn't leach Ca or Mg and excess NO3 is antagonistic to the uptake of boron and like I mentioned is an anion that doesn't knock Ca or Mg off of exchange sites. Al and H are the only common elements that are going to knock off either of those. And Ca has a stronger charge than Mg so it is capable of pushing Mg further down into the soil profile.

I know that the labs don't test for N levels because they can change so quickly. From what I read, they said that N can leach out of your soil by the time the sample reaches the lab... I have some serious yellowing going on and I am done guessing and adding stuff that might/might not help...

From the above excerpt about N, it drives out calcium but leaves Mg and depletes S... That sounds like exactly what I need!!! I have some feather meal that came in the mail today and I was thinking about mixing it in with more kelp and basalt. I think that my P#'s are where they need to be so I am going to skip the fish meal.

My #'s are close enough that I probably don't even have to mix anything with it, but I really feel like my plants have been turning yellow way too fast. Honestly, I don't think that rock dust and feather meal are going to affect this grow anyways. My potassium levels are down to 1/2 of what they should be and that is why I am suggesting Kelp, it will give me the micros and 1-0.1-2 for NPK ratio and a slight boost in Ph. I have all of this stuff on hand already. I learned my lesson on over-doing it also! I think that I am going to mix and plant tonight.

From the last test you posted from Spectrum you have 3 times the amount of Mg that you need in your soil and about 50% more K than you need. The yellowing is most likely from not enough iron. You only have about 1/4 of the amount of Fe that you should have and you have excesses of every mineral that is an antagonist towards its uptake. Plants can't photosynthesize without enough of it, hence the yellowing. Is that Spectrum test the most recent one?

And yeah, you're good on P. No need for fish meal.

And do you know where your basalt is from or what type of basalt it is? Some can be fairly high in aluminium (like 16-20%) which is acidifying.

 

[ShLUbY]

The reason for getting the K3 test at Spectrum if you're running a lightweight mix is because they actually weigh it out instead of just using their "calibrated" scoop like every soil testing facility does. You can get somewhat close numbers by getting the scoop weight from Logan Labs or weighing your soil yourself and using the weight of your soil to calculate it with the field soil numbers you (kind of) get with the scoop they use. If you got your soil tested within the last 3 weeks from Logan Labs you can probably get the scoop weight % still. Just call and ask them. It's free.

I disagree with the info that nitrogen leaches out calcium? That shouldn't be the case. Calcium has a double positive charge and has the third strongest hold of common elements in the soil behind aluminium and hydrogen. Ammonium only has a single positive charge that has equal holding ability as potassium which is a weaker charge than Al, Ca or Mg so it shouldn't be able to displace it off of the cation exchange sites unless there is a ridiculous amount of it. And nitrate is an anion and doesn't compete for exchange sites in the soil against Ca and it doesn't make compounds with Ca either (naturally) which is why calcium nitrate is such a quick acting form of Ca and NO3 because they dissipate really quickly.

And sulfur is an anion also and dissipates from Ca really quick in the soil profile so it shouldn't leach out Ca either which is why gypsum is a fairly quick acting fertilizer. It doesn't stay as a compound for very long. The sulfur will leach, but the Ca will stay. Sulfur and boron are the two most mobile elements (not including nitrogen) and are apt to continuously move down through the soil profile if they are not taken up by plants. I'm not aware of sulfur leaching out Mg either. Anions and cations don't stay as compounds in soil for very long and compete for different exchange sites.

Excess NO4 is antagonistic to the uptake of Ca, Mg, K and Mo, but it doesn't leach Ca or Mg and excess NO3 is antagonistic to the uptake of boron and like I mentioned is an anion that doesn't knock Ca or Mg off of exchange sites. Al and H are the only common elements that are going to knock off either of those. And Ca has a stronger charge than Mg so it is capable of pushing Mg further down into the soil profile.


From the last test you posted from Spectrum you have 3 times the amount of Mg that you need in your soil and about 50% more K than you need. The yellowing is most likely from not enough iron. You only have about 1/4 of the amount of Fe that you should have and you have excesses of every mineral that is an antagonist towards its uptake. Plants can't photosynthesize without enough of it, hence the yellowing. Is that Spectrum test the most recent one?

And yeah, you're good on P. No need for fish meal.

And do you know where your basalt is from or what type of basalt it is? Some can be fairly high in aluminium (like 16-20%) which is acidifying.

awesome and informative post, and the chemistry makes total sense to me. thanks for the write up man! love putting pieces of the puzzle together like this. the more you know, the more you grow!

 

[MustangStudFarm]

The reason for getting the K3 test at Spectrum if you're running a lightweight mix is because they actually weigh it out instead of just using their "calibrated" scoop like every soil testing facility does. You can get somewhat close numbers by getting the scoop weight from Logan Labs or weighing your soil yourself and using the weight of your soil to calculate it with the field soil numbers you (kind of) get with the scoop they use. If you got your soil tested within the last 3 weeks from Logan Labs you can probably get the scoop weight % still. Just call and ask them. It's free.

I think that I am starting to catch on to the difference between horticulture and agriculture lol. Most of the stuff that I have been reading is talking about field farming(agriculture) and container gardening(horticulture) is a different animal. I'll quote @Wetdog on that... The current soil that I have is the two tests from Logan Labs, the soil with the Ph of 5.8 is what I have the most of. The reason that I was showing the Spectrum Analytic test was because I think that I had a couple of 8gal pots of it that got mixed in on accident.

I forgot about the scoop weight%, the soil was tested last Tuesday... Dude, I gotta get more familiar with these tests,

I disagree with the info that nitrogen leaches out calcium?

That was a copy and paste. Still, I would like to know when I come across bad info... I think that the article was specifically for a hops farm.?

 

[Heil Tweetler]

The reason for getting the K3 test at Spectrum if you're running a lightweight mix is because they actually weigh it out instead of just using their "calibrated" scoop like every soil testing facility does. You can get somewhat close numbers by getting the scoop weight from Logan Labs or weighing your soil yourself and using the weight of your soil to calculate it with the field soil numbers you (kind of) get with the scoop they use. If you got your soil tested within the last 3 weeks from Logan Labs you can probably get the scoop weight % still. Just call and ask them. It's free.

I disagree with the info that nitrogen leaches out calcium? That shouldn't be the case. Calcium has a double positive charge and has the third strongest hold of common elements in the soil behind aluminium and hydrogen. Ammonium only has a single positive charge that has equal holding ability as potassium which is a weaker charge than Al, Ca or Mg so it shouldn't be able to displace it off of the cation exchange sites unless there is a ridiculous amount of it. And nitrate is an anion and doesn't compete for exchange sites in the soil against Ca and it doesn't make compounds with Ca either (naturally) which is why calcium nitrate is such a quick acting form of Ca and NO3 because they dissipate really quickly.

And sulfur is an anion also and dissipates from Ca really quick in the soil profile so it shouldn't leach out Ca either which is why gypsum is a fairly quick acting fertilizer. It doesn't stay as a compound for very long. The sulfur will leach, but the Ca will stay. Sulfur and boron are the two most mobile elements (not including nitrogen) and are apt to continuously move down through the soil profile if they are not taken up by plants. I'm not aware of sulfur leaching out Mg either. Anions and cations don't stay as compounds in soil for very long and compete for different exchange sites.

Excess NO4 is antagonistic to the uptake of Ca, Mg, K and Mo, but it doesn't leach Ca or Mg and excess NO3 is antagonistic to the uptake of boron and like I mentioned is an anion that doesn't knock Ca or Mg off of exchange sites. Al and H are the only common elements that are going to knock off either of those. And Ca has a stronger charge than Mg so it is capable of pushing Mg further down into the soil profile.


From the last test you posted from Spectrum you have 3 times the amount of Mg that you need in your soil and about 50% more K than you need. The yellowing is most likely from not enough iron. You only have about 1/4 of the amount of Fe that you should have and you have excesses of every mineral that is an antagonist towards its uptake. Plants can't photosynthesize without enough of it, hence the yellowing. Is that Spectrum test the most recent one?

And yeah, you're good on P. No need for fish meal.

And do you know where your basalt is from or what type of basalt it is? Some can be fairly high in aluminium (like 16-20%) which is acidifying.

Sounds like youre caught up on the cec thread at ic?

 

[MustangStudFarm]

Here is what I found on Logan Labs Website...

Soilless Media:
A standard soil analysis is done on a volumetric basis. Scoops, of a fixed volume, are used in measuring the soil for analysis. The scoop size is based on an assumed average volume, which equates to a typical soil weighing two grams.

Logan Labs uses a 2-gram soil scoop for the standard analysis package, as well as nitrate and ammonium and all extra parameters that are provided on our standard soil report.

When using this scoop to sample a soilless medium, the result will be lighter than two grams. This will cause the concentration of nutrients in your sample to be underestimated.

To adjust for this, a scoop weight of your soil-less media will be determined and reported on your standard soil report analysis as a percentage of a standard two-gram sample. You must request a scoop weight of your soil-less media on the worksheet.

http://www.loganlabs.com/soilless-media.html

 

[OzCocoLoco]

Here is what I found on Logan Labs Website...

Soilless Media:
A standard soil analysis is done on a volumetric basis. Scoops, of a fixed volume, are used in measuring the soil for analysis. The scoop size is based on an assumed average volume, which equates to a typical soil weighing two grams.

Logan Labs uses a 2-gram soil scoop for the standard analysis package, as well as nitrate and ammonium and all extra parameters that are provided on our standard soil report.

When using this scoop to sample a soilless medium, the result will be lighter than two grams. This will cause the concentration of nutrients in your sample to be underestimated.

To adjust for this, a scoop weight of your soil-less media will be determined and reported on your standard soil report analysis as a percentage of a standard two-gram sample. You must request a scoop weight of your soil-less media on the worksheet.

http://www.loganlabs.com/soilless-media.html

This link is from the company that does all my soil testing and recommendations for my farms over here in Australia,the blog that Graeme Sait writes has a lot of good info about soil testing and the importance of having the right ratio’s of elements.

http://blog.nutri-tech.com.au/soil-therapy-guidelines-understanding-your-soil-report-4/

 

[rikdabrick]

I think that I am starting to catch on to the difference between horticulture and agriculture lol. Most of the stuff that I have been reading is talking about field farming(agriculture) and container gardening(horticulture) is a different animal. I'll quote @Wetdog on that... The current soil that I have is the two tests from Logan Labs, the soil with the Ph of 5.8 is what I have the most of. The reason that I was showing the Spectrum Analytic test was because I think that I had a couple of 8gal pots of it that got mixed in on accident.

I forgot about the scoop weight%, the soil was tested last Tuesday... Dude, I gotta get more familiar with these tests,

That was a copy and paste. Still, I would like to know when I come across bad info... I think that the article was specifically for a hops farm.?

I'll take a look at the at the Logan tests tomorrow. There is some different things to consider between lightweight media and field soil and between growing in pots and in the ground, but the chemistry doesn't change.

Call Logan Labs in the morning and ask for the scoop weight percentage. It'll probably be a few days for them to get around to doing it.

I have never read the stuff that was posted by the hop farm person anywhere else so that's why I said I'd disagree with it.

 

[rikdabrick]

Sounds like youre caught up on the cec thread at ic?

I'm definitely caught up on that thread, ha ha! I've followed it since the first day it was posted and followed Micheal Astera's thread from the beginning before slownickel's (Micheal Kraidy). I probably started studying soil science stuff a year or so before Micheal Astera started his thread on icmag (which was a good thread too IMO) because I had total collapse with my greenhouse at the time and I had no idea why. I sent in a soil test and the lab wasn't that helpful so I started looking around for info and it all started from there. I run Mg, P, K, B, Fe, and Cu based off of Michael Astera's ratios which lines up with Michael Kraidy's ratios too. I base Ca, Mn and Na off of Michael Kraidy's recs. Silicon I do at 100+ppm from Jidoka's recs on icmag and I base my Mo, Co and Se based off of Graeme Sait's recs so it's a collaboration of knowledge that I've been finding to work out really well.

 

[rikdabrick]

This link is from the company that does all my soil testing and recommendations for my farms over here in Australia,the blog that Graeme Sait writes has a lot of good info about soil testing and the importance of having the right ratio’s of elements.

http://blog.nutri-tech.com.au/soil-therapy-guidelines-understanding-your-soil-report-4/

I like Graeme Sait's writings a lot. He writes really well. As I mentioned in my previous post I do my Mo, Co and Se numbers based off of his recommendations.

 

[Heil Tweetler]

I like Graeme Sait's writings a lot. He writes really well. As I mentioned in my previous post I do my Mo, Co and Se numbers based off of his recommendations.

I loved listening to Saits you tube talks. Kraidy mentions Sait here snd there. Graham has some super imaginative theories.

What do you use as Se and Mo sources?

 

[rikdabrick]

I loved listening to Saits you tube talks. Kraidy mentions Sait here snd there. Graham has some super imaginative theories.

What do you use as Se and Mo sources?

I haven't seen any of Sait's YouTube videos. I've only read his articles. I'll check out his videos though. I'm interested to hear in some of his imaginative theories. I've heard some pretty imaginative stuff from other people though.

I'm pretty sure Kraidy has only talked stink about Sait, but he does that with most other soil guys. I think the only guys I haven't seen him talk stink about is Albrecht, Tiedjens and Reams.

I use sodium molybdate for Mo and go half-half with sodium selenate and sodium selenite for Se and I use cobalt sulfate for Co.

 

[OzCocoLoco]

I loved listening to Saits you tube talks. Kraidy mentions Sait here snd there. Graham has some super imaginative theories.

What do you use as Se and Mo sources?

For Se either gypsum or elemental sulphur, I’ve never had an issue with Mo so haven’t had to add any

 

[OzCocoLoco]

I haven't seen any of Sait's YouTube videos. I've only read his articles. I'll check out his videos though. I'm interested to hear in some of his imaginative theories. I've heard some pretty imaginative stuff from other people though.

I'm pretty sure Kraidy has only talked stink about Sait, but he does that with most other soil guys. I think the only guys I haven't seen him talk stink about is Albrecht, Tiedjens and Reams.

I use sodium molybdate for Mo and go half-half with sodium selenate and sodium selenite for Se and I use cobalt sulfate for Co.

Slow called him a “great salesman” when I asked him about Greame lol he doesn’t pull any punches when it comes to soil does he. I respect for both of their opinions and knowledge,they have probably forgotten more than I’ll ever know about soil and plant nutrition.

 

[rikdabrick]

For Se either gypsum or elemental sulphur, I’ve never had an issue with Mo so haven’t had to add any

Se is selenium. S is sulfur

 

[rikdabrick]

Slow called him a “great salesman” when I asked him about Greame lol he doesn’t pull any punches when it comes to soil does he. I respect for both of their opinions and knowledge,they have probably forgotten more than I’ll ever know about soil and plant nutrition.

I like them both also. If I had the credentials I'd probably be selling fertilizer like Sait too, ha ha! The guys selling shovels we're the only ones guaranteed to make a killing during the gold rush here back in the day

 

[OzCocoLoco]

Se is selenium. S is sulfur

Sorry mate just woke up had Australia day yesterday and had a mate drop over late with some Sunset Sherbert haha. Never had to add any of that either

 

[OzCocoLoco]

I like them both also. If I had the credentials I'd probably be selling fertilizer like Sait too, ha ha! The guys selling shovels we're the only ones guaranteed to make a killing during the gold rush here back in the day

I think it’s good that they both aren’t sheep and back themselves to succeed at what they have chosen to do and I don’t think anyone could argue that both aren’t killing it in their own fields.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

I'll take a look at the at the Logan tests tomorrow. There is some different things to consider between lightweight media and field soil and between growing in pots and in the ground, but the chemistry doesn't change.

I think that I am catching on! I was trying to learn this on my own, but it's a steep learning curve... Thanks for the help!!!

I noticed on this sample report that they have 60% organic matter, so that is normal... I will send off for the K3 Soiless Medium test(?) this time, is that right? I don't know where I got K3 from, maybe it was from my wife talking to them on the phone? We called both Logan Labs and Spectrum Analytic today and if I remember correctly, Spectrum was more timely about doing the test. Last week, our sample reached Logan Labs on Thursday and they didn't send me the results until Tuesday. So, I might go back to Spectrum if they are the same price. Plus, their bar graph is pretty cool.

http://www.loganlabs.com/soil-report.pdf


You asked about the basalt that I was using, here is a link to it. I was avoiding Al if I could and that is why I didn't use Azomite. I don't think that it has had time to break down because it has only been in my soil for about 6 weeks.

http://www.cascademinerals.com/products/

 

[rikdabrick]

I think that I am catching on! I was trying to learn this on my own, but it's a steep learning curve... Thanks for the help!!!

I noticed on this sample report that they have 60% organic matter, so that is normal... I will send off for the K3 Soiless Medium test(?) this time, is that right? I don't know where I got K3 from, maybe it was from my wife talking to them on the phone? We called both Logan Labs and Spectrum Analytic today and if I remember correctly, Spectrum was more timely about doing the test. Last week, our sample reached Logan Labs on Thursday and they didn't send me the results until Tuesday. So, I might go back to Spectrum if they are the same price. Plus, their bar graph is pretty cool.

http://www.loganlabs.com/soil-report.pdf


You asked about the basalt that I was using, here is a link to it. I was avoiding Al if I could and that is why I didn't use Azomite. I don't think that it has had time to break down because it has only been in my soil for about 6 weeks.

http://www.cascademinerals.com/products/

I'll check out that test and reply later tonight. If you want to figure out how to do your own soil prescriptions you should get The Ideal Soil Book 2.0 by Micheal Astera. It's a great and inexpensive investment if you're going to be doing soil testing regularly.