Need help reamending my soil

[Devildenis69]

Hi everyone !

Im a freshly switched to organic grower and I would need some help reamending my soil.

My soil is a mix of 2 lights soils, one with dark peat, perlite and coco, the other one with blond peat and some chunky spongy brown stuff.

To this was mixed some 10% coco, 25% of 2 mixed wormcompost (one black and moist, the other brown and dry), and some Guanodiffusion products (premixed seaweeds and myco powders, and some NP and PK guanos).
This soil was already recycled 3 times, with some 10~20% wormcompost added each time.

Running low on amendments, I tried 2/3 of recommended dose and I am now having hurgy af girls, with micro-defs and as a bonus thrips

So I decided to go away from guano, here's what I came to:
- 12kg Kelp (Ascophyllum Nodosum) norvegian kelp if I get it right
- 1 kg Neem cake
- 1 kg gypsum
- 2 kg Basalt dust (already got this one)
- 1 kg Biochar
wanted to use Crab Shell Meal but have trouble to source it, what woul be a good replacement ?
Would Alfalfa do the trick ?

For the next soil recycling I was planning to add some coco, sphagnum moss and compost (10% each).

So what do you think, will I be okay ?
Without the crab, seems like I would be P deficient
would I also need some extra K for flowering or kelp covers it ?

set-up: 3.5L airpot veg, 11L airpot flowering ~240w 44% 3000k led, 2*4ft, ~150L of recycled soil

 

[Devildenis69]

I found some cheap crushed fish bones (NP 5 25), so it would look like:
- 12kg norvegian kelp
- 10kg fish bones
- 1kg neem cake
- 2kg basalt dust
- 1kg biochar

does it look good ? Is gypsum really a must-have with peat based soil ?
is there a cheaper equivalent ph balancer ?

 

[Wetdog]

I found some cheap crushed fish bones (NP 5 25), so it would look like:
- 12kg norvegian kelp
- 10kg fish bones
- 1kg neem cake
- 2kg basalt dust
- 1kg biochar

does it look good ? Is gypsum really a must-have with peat based soil ?
is there a cheaper equivalent ph balancer ?

Gypsum in no way is any sort of a pH balancer, it is the wrong form of Ca for that purpose, being Ca sulfate.

For pH you need Ca carbonate. This is found in dolomite lime, Ag lime (calcitic lime), or oyster shell flour. These are just 3 sources of Ca carbonate, there are others. Dolomite is pretty much the cheapest, being $4.50/40lb bag in my area.

Gypsum is ~$13/40lb bag in my area, for comparison. I use gypsum, just not as a liming agent. Dolomite fills that role, for me.

 

[Devildenis69]

Gypsum in no way is any sort of a pH balancer, it is the wrong form of Ca for that purpose, being Ca sulfate.

For pH you need Ca carbonate. This is found in dolomite lime, Ag lime (calcitic lime), or oyster shell flour. These are just 3 sources of Ca carbonate, there are others. Dolomite is pretty much the cheapest, being $4.50/40lb bag in my area.

Gypsum is ~$13/40lb bag in my area, for comparison. I use gypsum, just not as a liming agent. Dolomite fills that role, for me.

Thank you for your reply, so some lime (46 % CaO. 6 % MgO) is okay ?

Does my list look ok to you ?
- 1 cup kelp
- 2/3 cup fish bone
- 1/2 cup neem cake
- 3 cups basalt
- 10% biochar
for 1cu.ft (30L)

thank you for your time

 

[Wetdog]

Thank you for your reply, so some lime (46 % CaO. 6 % MgO) is okay ?

Does my list look ok to you ?
- 1 cup kelp
- 2/3 cup fish bone
- 1/2 cup neem cake
- 3 cups basalt
- 10% biochar
for 1cu.ft (30L)

thank you for your time

Lime goes way beyond 'okay' to pretty much a necessity. It is the second thing added when making a mix. The first being the peat moss. Then, it gets dry mixed before proceding. Lime has to be in contact, or in very close proximity to what it's buffering. Besides the peat being the most acidic, large % of the total mix, everything added will come in contact with the well dusted peat moss.

The nominal amount for lime is 1cup/cf of mix. *I* use a bit more, closer to 1 1/2cups/cf of dolomite lime.

What did you have in mind for a liming agent? Anything specific?

The rest of the mix is looking Ok.

 

[Devildenis69]

Lime goes way beyond 'okay' to pretty much a necessity. It is the second thing added when making a mix. The first being the peat moss. Then, it gets dry mixed before proceding. Lime has to be in contact, or in very close proximity to what it's buffering. Besides the peat being the most acidic, large % of the total mix, everything added will come in contact with the well dusted peat moss.

The nominal amount for lime is 1cup/cf of mix. *I* use a bit more, closer to 1 1/2cups/cf of dolomite lime.

What did you have in mind for a liming agent? Anything specific?

The rest of the mix is looking Ok.

Thank you for your explanation.

At first I didn't have any liming agent in mind, as I recycled my soil without using any and had some okay results, I thought that the micro biology of the soil was autobalancing the pH.
I've put gypsum in the list b/c I read that it was necessary to balance the low pH of the peat, so I was a little bit confused when you explained that gypsum serves another purpose.

 

[Devildenis69]

Can I replace dolomite with crab meal as liming agent ?
Cuz I found both of them at the same price, crazy I know

 

[swedsteven]

You can find
DOLOMITIX lime(chaux) 18kg 5$or less at any home depot or any store that include gardening ...

Or OysterShell but expensive here at my place.

Crab meal is very good but it do not work for the ph

My mix first mix
Old flush promix 2/3 mix
Worm casting compost 1/3 mix
Down To Earth Alfalfa Meal 5lbs 1cup
Down To Earth Crab Meal 5lbs 1cup
Down To Earth Fish Bone Meal 6lbs 1cup
Down To Earth Kelp Meal 5lbs 1cup
Down To Earth Langbeinite 5lbs 1/2cup
Down to Earth OysterShell 6lbs 1cup ph
Neem meal 3lbs 1cup
for every 2 cubic foot .56 liter
Supplement with

First watering
Worm casting tea bubble 24h activator

2 week flowering top feed 20ml scoop guano each 4 gallon of soil 12 -10-3

4 week untill 1 week before harvest flowering 1ml a litter off unsulfured mollases 0-0-5

Good luck im at my second organic grow so ...
Not a pro but we learn fast here just by reading good luck.

 

[RandomHero8913]

Can I replace dolomite with crab meal as liming agent ?
Cuz I found both of them at the same price, crazy I know

Keep the crab and replace the dolomite with some Gypsum

 

[Devildenis69]

Gardening shops are some-how lame around me, I can never find what I want in there ...
I'll search a bit more to source the cheapest liming agent, thank you for your suggestion !

Also my kelp is n/p/k 2/0.2/2 for 12kg and my fish bone is 5/25/0 for 10kg, aiming for P equal to K, should I put 12.5x more grams of kelp, or equal visual quantity is the way to go ?

 

[Devildenis69]

Keep the crab and replace the dolomite with some Gypsum

I believe Wetdog explained me below that gypsum aint no liming agent, however I record reading in this section that ppl are correcting acidic peat with gypsum ... as I suck in chemistery and the shit isnt working the same way in soil as in a test tube, I have no idea what its all about

 

[RandomHero8913]

I believe Wetdog explained me below that gypsum aint no liming agent, however I record reading in this section that ppl are correcting acidic peat with gypsum ... as I suck in chemistery and the shit isnt working the same way in soil as in a test tube, I have no idea what its all about

But all the calcium carbonate in the shells will act as a liming agent. The gypsum will help add some calcium and most importantly sulfur to your mix.

 

[Devildenis69]

But all the calcium carbonate in the shells will act as a liming agent. The gypsum will help add some calcium and most importantly sulfur to your mix.

you mean crab shells ?

 

[RandomHero8913]

you mean crab shells ?

Sorry I had to re-read this thread.

As far as liming goes Calcium Carbonate is what you need. This is a post from icmag


Liming Agents
NUG-LUG

Just for sh*ts and grins - consider and analyze the 'accepted' liming agents allowed to be discussed on this board. I was warned several times that going against the so-called conventional wisdom of a former board moderator that doing so was grounds for having my posts removed.

Heh...............

Let's look at the most widely used 'liming agents' in agriculture/horticulture which are as follows:

Gypsum - this agent is known in the chemist's world as 'calcium sulfate dihydrate' (CaSO4·2H2O) - meaning elemental Calcium (Ca++) combined with Sulphur Oxide (SO4) and 2 water (H20) - you still with me? Organic farmers hold the whole issue of liming agents in utter disregard - fair enough. Where gypsum comes into play is that while it contains elemental Calcium (i.e. Ca++) it also contains Sulphur Oxide which releases Hydrogen (+) which is acidic. This results in gypsum being able to both raise as well as lower a soil's pH - whatever that might mean which is generally 'nothing'

Let's move to limestone/oyster shell powder, i.e. Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) - calcium carrying a carbon and 3 oxygen cations - probably THE most effective 'liming' agent that one could opt for relative to the CeC paradigm.

Next up is dolomite lime - dolomite lime is also a mined mineral which is, interestingly enough is also a 'carbonate' but in a form that is not as easily 'adsorbed' by a plant root as other forms of calcium carbonate (calcium carbonate which is the main alkaline base found in EWC - the worm's digestive tract contains liquid calcium carbonate as part of their digestive process.

The main issue with dolomite lime is that the calcium (Ca) is bound with the Magnesium (Mg) component - meaning that unless the soil is out of bounds as it relates to pH - the Magnesium component is not made available by the soil's microbes. Just because it's 'there' doesn't mean that it's available to a plant.

Whew!!

So if YOU were to opt for a 'liming agent' per se, which one would you opt for? Keep in mind that I'm risking banishment from this board for even questioning conventional wisdom as dictated by the board's management.

Heh..................

CC
__________________
One minute I held the key
Next the walls were closed on me
And I discoverd that my castles stand
Upon pillars of salt and pillars of sand

Here is the thread that came from if you've got some time to kill.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=133648

 

[Devildenis69]

Sorry I had to re-read this thread.

As far as liming goes Calcium Carbonate is what you need. This is a post from icmag


Liming Agents
NUG-LUG

Just for sh*ts and grins - consider and analyze the 'accepted' liming agents allowed to be discussed on this board. I was warned several times that going against the so-called conventional wisdom of a former board moderator that doing so was grounds for having my posts removed.

Heh...............

Let's look at the most widely used 'liming agents' in agriculture/horticulture which are as follows:

Gypsum - this agent is known in the chemist's world as 'calcium sulfate dihydrate' (CaSO4·2H2O) - meaning elemental Calcium (Ca++) combined with Sulphur Oxide (SO4) and 2 water (H20) - you still with me? Organic farmers hold the whole issue of liming agents in utter disregard - fair enough. Where gypsum comes into play is that while it contains elemental Calcium (i.e. Ca++) it also contains Sulphur Oxide which releases Hydrogen (+) which is acidic. This results in gypsum being able to both raise as well as lower a soil's pH - whatever that might mean which is generally 'nothing'

Let's move to limestone/oyster shell powder, i.e. Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) - calcium carrying a carbon and 3 oxygen cations - probably THE most effective 'liming' agent that one could opt for relative to the CeC paradigm.

Next up is dolomite lime - dolomite lime is also a mined mineral which is, interestingly enough is also a 'carbonate' but in a form that is not as easily 'adsorbed' by a plant root as other forms of calcium carbonate (calcium carbonate which is the main alkaline base found in EWC - the worm's digestive tract contains liquid calcium carbonate as part of their digestive process.

The main issue with dolomite lime is that the calcium (Ca) is bound with the Magnesium (Mg) component - meaning that unless the soil is out of bounds as it relates to pH - the Magnesium component is not made available by the soil's microbes. Just because it's 'there' doesn't mean that it's available to a plant.

Whew!!

So if YOU were to opt for a 'liming agent' per se, which one would you opt for? Keep in mind that I'm risking banishment from this board for even questioning conventional wisdom as dictated by the board's management.

Heh..................

CC
__________________
One minute I held the key
Next the walls were closed on me
And I discoverd that my castles stand
Upon pillars of salt and pillars of sand

Here is the thread that came from if you've got some time to kill.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=133648

Very interesting read, thank you !
So Gypsum would keep the ph around 7 watever the quantity added ?

My mix first mix
Old flush promix 2/3 mix
Worm casting compost 1/3 mix
Down To Earth Alfalfa Meal 5lbs 1cup
Down To Earth Crab Meal 5lbs 1cup
Down To Earth Fish Bone Meal 6lbs 1cup
Down To Earth Kelp Meal 5lbs 1cup
Down To Earth Langbeinite 5lbs 1/2cup
Down to Earth OysterShell 6lbs 1cup ph
Neem meal 3lbs 1cup
for every 2 cubic foot .56 liter

at first I wanted to go with DTE products, but they don't deliver in my country ...

 

[RandomHero8913]

Very interesting read, thank you !
So Gypsum would keep the ph around 7 watever the quantity added ?

No. After at certain point the sulfur will begin lowering your pH.

 

[RandomHero8913]

Are you using sphagnum moss or sphagnum peat moss?

 

[Devildenis69]

Some of them were looking hungry, one had some small red dots (Cal def?), but I believe it was caused by me putting guano half strenght, can't tell for sure if I have ph issue

Are you using sphagnum moss or sphagnum peat moss?

Currently I have approximately 40-50% of brown and blond peat, 30% coco, 25% compost and a little perlite, oatmeal, sand, eggshells, rice ... not enough aeration (will add some basalt, lavarock and biochar soon)
Half of my soil was some pre-bagged, so limed for a certain time ...
And I was planning to add 10L of sphagnum peat moss to my 110~150L soil

 

[Devildenis69]

Are you using sphagnum moss or sphagnum peat moss?

I educated myself a bit about the difference about them and from what I understand sphagnum moss will get more acidic over decomposition and may increase fungal activity ... but
"Sphagnum moss is a source of the fungus Sporothrix schenckii, which causes sporotrichosis.
Sporotrichosis in humans usually starts as a local skindisease of the hands, arms and legs, but may become generalized.
Workers handling sphagnum moss are encouraged to wear gloves to prevent injury to the skin surface and prevent entry of the organism through existing skin lesions."

 

[RandomHero8913]

I educated myself a bit about the difference about them and from what I understand sphagnum moss will get more acidic over decomposition and may increase fungal activity ... but
"Sphagnum moss is a source of the fungus Sporothrix schenckii, which causes sporotrichosis.
Sporotrichosis in humans usually starts as a local skindisease of the hands, arms and legs, but may become generalized.
Workers handling sphagnum moss are encouraged to wear gloves to prevent injury to the skin surface and prevent entry of the organism through existing skin lesions."

Sphagnum moss and sphagnum peat moss are two totallly different things. Always use the peat moss. The other moss is used for orchids and shouldn’t be used in our potting mixes