Water cooling using aquaponics tank

[Humanrob]

Hey, haven't stopped by in a while so I don't recall if I posted this before, but below is a link to the local (PDX area) commercial aquaponics business I visited. You guys were talking commercial, so I thought it might be relevant, and if you have specific questions, I found him very open to communicating. I met Joel a couple of years ago. He said that initially he thought the local set up was a proof of concept for a move to California where he could work from greenhouses -- because his electric bill for HID lighting to grow basil in a warehouse was ridiculous. I just checked his blog for the first time in a long time, and apparently he's expanded to Seattle, so it would appear that his business model is sustainable even in the NW. I guess selling organic basil to up-scale health food stores allows room for his business to thrive. Joel is a really good guy, so I'm totally happy for his success.

https://livelocalorganic.wordpress.com/
http://livelocalorganic.com/

For the most part, I would think climates like Cali would be perfect for this, between the long (year round?) greenhouse grow season and the abundant options for solar electric to run the pumps etc., plus the recycling of water... seems a perfect fit. I am completely surprised that it can work here in a warehouse situation in the PNW. And while I appreciate his talk about sustainability, using electricity the way he currently is, is not sustainable.

 

[ttystikk]

Hey, haven't stopped by in a while so I don't recall if I posted this before, but below is a link to the local (PDX area) commercial aquaponics business I visited. You guys were talking commercial, so I thought it might be relevant, and if you have specific questions, I found him very open to communicating. I met Joel a couple of years ago. He said that initially he thought the local set up was a proof of concept for a move to California where he could work from greenhouses -- because his electric bill for HID lighting to grow basil in a warehouse was ridiculous. I just checked his blog for the first time in a long time, and apparently he's expanded to Seattle, so it would appear that his business model is sustainable even in the NW. I guess selling organic basil to up-scale health food stores allows room for his business to thrive. Joel is a really good guy, so I'm totally happy for his success.

https://livelocalorganic.wordpress.com/
http://livelocalorganic.com/

For the most part, I would think climates like Cali would be perfect for this, between the long (year round?) greenhouse grow season and the abundant options for solar electric to run the pumps etc., plus the recycling of water... seems a perfect fit. I am completely surprised that it can work here in a warehouse situation in the PNW. And while I appreciate his talk about sustainability, using electricity the way he currently is, is not sustainable.

Would LED lighting be better?

I'm thinking about doing something like this too.

 

[Humanrob]

Would LED lighting be better?

I'm thinking about doing something like this too.

I imagine its the same as growing cannabis -- LED would be more efficient, but (still) would have a bigger initial cost. I would think that if one were to run the numbers, it would be a matter of months (depending on the size of the operation) before the initial investment in LED paid for itself. It's like starting any business: can you get start-up funding to start at a profitable size, or do you need to plan for scalable modular expansion, starting small and incrementally implementing controlled growth? The answer to that has a lot of components, the biggest of which (I imagine) are your access to money and your knowledge about the field. Creating a business plan for staged growth takes a very comprehensive understanding of the process and the market, in a sense you are writing a series of business plans for a succession of business sizes with investment or reinvestment plans built in.

Starting a business takes knowledge, money, and balls. Succeeding takes a solid plan and copious amounts of adaptability and creativity. Or you can be born into money, and/or be incredibly lucky. Some people fall into great ideas that are so overdue (or so ahead of their time) that they pay for themselves, but that's the exception. Successful businesses are an amalgam of: careful planning, functional research, tenacity, patience, maturity, an exceptional work ethic, an endless willingness to learn, flexibility/adaptability/creativity, a pinch of hubris, and, oh yeah, a really good idea. There are lots of reasons that the vast majority of businesses fail.

Sorry if that answer was over the top. I've started businesses before, and I consider it from time to time. At this point in my life I just don't have the drive, and haven't found anything I'm passionate enough about to motivate me to put in the hours necessary to pull off a small business. Perhaps it takes an old man's knowledge and a young man's energy.

 

[Ken Beck]

Would LED lighting be better?

I'm thinking about doing something like this too.

Most definitely would be. I could see a greenhouse that could use the sunlight during the day and extend growing hours partially into the night time. This could allow crops to be produced even faster with minimal power used for lighting. Any other form of lighting would be big, hard to mount without blocking natural sunlight, require high amounts of cooling, and can only reach 140-150lumens a watt in the super expensive commercial versions. Any average person could build a whole system including power usage of cooling pump and power supply and get 160+ lumens a watt.

 

[Ken Beck]

I imagine its the same as growing cannabis -- LED would be more efficient, but (still) would have a bigger initial cost. I would think that if one were to run the numbers, it would be a matter of months (depending on the size of the operation) before the initial investment in LED paid for itself. It's like starting any business: can you get start-up funding to start at a profitable size, or do you need to plan for scalable modular expansion, starting small and incrementally implementing controlled growth? The answer to that has a lot of components, the biggest of which (I imagine) are your access to money and your knowledge about the field. Creating a business plan for staged growth takes a very comprehensive understanding of the process and the market, in a sense you are writing a series of business plans for a succession of business sizes with investment or reinvestment plans built in.

Starting a business takes knowledge, money, and balls. Succeeding takes a solid plan and copious amounts of adaptability and creativity. Or you can be born into money, and/or be incredibly lucky. Some people fall into great ideas that are so overdue they pay for themselves, but that's the exception. Successful businesses are an amalgam of: careful planning, functional research, tenacity, patience, maturity, an exceptional work ethic, an endless willingness to learn, flexibility/adaptability/creativity, a pinch of hubris, and, oh yeah, a really good idea. There are lots of reasons that the vast majority of businesses fail.

Sorry if that answer was over the top. I've started businesses before, and I consider it from time to time. At this point in my life I just don't have the drive, and haven't found anything I'm passionate enough about to motivate me to put in the hours necessary to pull off a small business. Perhaps it takes an old man's knowledge and a young man's energy.

Starting off modular with making your own lighting system would be the cheapest and best route i see. Taking money from anyone always comes with strings attached. I dont have the space to do anything more than a couple systems and i dont have deep pockets to get more area so i'm not going to do much more than refine and change thing on my current setups.

 

[Humanrob]

Starting off modular with making your own lighting system would be the cheapest and best route i see. Taking money from anyone always comes with strings attached. I dont have the space to do anything more than a couple systems and i dont have deep pockets to get more area so i'm not going to do much more than refine and change thing on my current setups.

That makes the most sense, especially when you are in a young field that does not have clear pathways predefined. The link that I gave to the commercial business, that was *majorly funded*. When @ttystikk said "I'm thinking about doing something like this too" I assumed he was referring to a business of that scale, and there are only so many roads to get there and most take loads of capital.

 

[Ken Beck]

Hey, haven't stopped by in a while so I don't recall if I posted this before, but below is a link to the local (PDX area) commercial aquaponics business I visited. You guys were talking commercial, so I thought it might be relevant, and if you have specific questions, I found him very open to communicating. I met Joel a couple of years ago. He said that initially he thought the local set up was a proof of concept for a move to California where he could work from greenhouses -- because his electric bill for HID lighting to grow basil in a warehouse was ridiculous. I just checked his blog for the first time in a long time, and apparently he's expanded to Seattle, so it would appear that his business model is sustainable even in the NW. I guess selling organic basil to up-scale health food stores allows room for his business to thrive. Joel is a really good guy, so I'm totally happy for his success.

https://livelocalorganic.wordpress.com/
http://livelocalorganic.com/

For the most part, I would think climates like Cali would be perfect for this, between the long (year round?) greenhouse grow season and the abundant options for solar electric to run the pumps etc., plus the recycling of water... seems a perfect fit. I am completely surprised that it can work here in a warehouse situation in the PNW. And while I appreciate his talk about sustainability, using electricity the way he currently is, is not sustainable.

I think the warm climates of California would be perfect too. Im amazed that these systems never took off over there. It would be very profitable not having to worry about climate factors.
Im looking at trying out trout as a cold climate system but i couldnt put the heat from lighting in the tank.

 

[ttystikk]

I imagine its the same as growing cannabis -- LED would be more efficient, but (still) would have a bigger initial cost. I would think that if one were to run the numbers, it would be a matter of months (depending on the size of the operation) before the initial investment in LED paid for itself. It's like starting any business: can you get start-up funding to start at a profitable size, or do you need to plan for scalable modular expansion, starting small and incrementally implementing controlled growth? The answer to that has a lot of components, the biggest of which (I imagine) are your access to money and your knowledge about the field. Creating a business plan for staged growth takes a very comprehensive understanding of the process and the market, in a sense you are writing a series of business plans for a succession of business sizes with investment or reinvestment plans built in.

Starting a business takes knowledge, money, and balls. Succeeding takes a solid plan and copious amounts of adaptability and creativity. Or you can be born into money, and/or be incredibly lucky. Some people fall into great ideas that are so overdue they pay for themselves, but that's the exception. Successful businesses are an amalgam of: careful planning, functional research, tenacity, patience, maturity, an exceptional work ethic, an endless willingness to learn, flexibility/adaptability/creativity, a pinch of hubris, and, oh yeah, a really good idea. There are lots of reasons that the vast majority of businesses fail.

Sorry if that answer was over the top. I've started businesses before, and I consider it from time to time. At this point in my life I just don't have the drive, and haven't found anything I'm passionate enough about to motivate me to put in the hours necessary to pull off a small business. Perhaps it takes an old man's knowledge and a young man's energy.

What if I told you I already have 40kW of LED ready to go? I'm for an opportunity just like this. Colorado is too cold for year round greenhouse operations. I've started my own small business before, I'm not scared of the effort involved.

 

[ttystikk]

Most definitely would be. I could see a greenhouse that could use the sunlight during the day and extend growing hours partially into the night time. This could allow crops to be produced even faster with minimal power used for lighting. Any other form of lighting would be big, hard to mount without blocking natural sunlight, require high amounts of cooling, and can only reach 140-150lumens a watt in the super expensive commercial versions. Any average person could build a whole system including power usage of cooling pump and power supply and get 160+ lumens a watt.

What if I already had the necessary lighting?

 

[Humanrob]

What if I told you I already have 40kW of LED ready to go? I'm for an opportunity just like this. Colorado is too cold for year round greenhouse operations. I've started my own small business before, I'm not scared of the effort involved.

Go for it!

 

[Ken Beck]

What if I already had the necessary lighting?

Then thats a majority of the cost. The other equipment is fairly cheap. Growing medium is your next huge hurdle.

 

[ttystikk]

I still feel like I'd need a partner. Someone with greenhouse experience and a greenhouse to set up in.

I have over 50 x 225W water cooled COB LED light fixtures just looking for a new home.

And I have more LED light fixtures that are not water cooled.

 

[Ken Beck]

I still feel like I'd need a partner. Someone with greenhouse experience and a greenhouse to set up in.

I have over 50 x 225W water cooled COB LED light fixtures just looking for a new home.

And I have more LED light fixtures that are not water cooled.

What leds do you have on them? Any specs?

 

[Ken Beck]

I've been busy the last couple weeks trying to get my boat running reliably so i havent given any updates, but the pepper plant did finally take root after a week and is producing peppers already. I have wanted to try trout, but they are so hard to keep happy. 1/3 of the trout i was getting for a system i am setting up in my basement didnt even survive the trip home. The next 1/3 died after getting them into the 35gallon tank before i was going to transfer them to the tote in the basement. Then after many water changes trying to keep the last few alive, i realized my tap water had dangerous levels of chloramine that was killing them all.. Unfortunately i couldnt stick my current system water in there as it was too warm. By the time i could fix the problem i was left with 1 lone trout. Ugh. Im not sure even the temps in my basement are cool enough to have the trout do well either. I may need a chiller just to make this work. I will be expanding the warm water system to include 2 more grow beds, the nitrate just is too much for the plants in the bed to use. It filters our deadly tap water well though. No ammonia even shows once it cycles into the system.

 

[Humanrob]

Colorado is too cold for year round greenhouse operations.

I still feel like I'd need a partner. Someone with greenhouse experience and a greenhouse to set up in.

Are you thinking of a business not in Colorado, or in the second statement did you mean warehouse and not greenhouse?

 

[Ken Beck]

Are you thinking of a business not in Colorado, or in the second statement did you mean warehouse and not greenhouse?

I think he wants a year round greenhouse that is kept warm like a building. Its hard either way i think. One you have to do mostly artificial lighting so lighting is much higher. Other hand, greenhouse would require more heat than the leds can supply but it wouldnt require much lighting. Thermal envelope in a building would be much easier to handle.

 

[Humanrob]

I've been busy the last couple weeks trying to get my boat running reliably so i havent given any updates, but the pepper plant did finally take root after a week and is producing peppers already. I have wanted to try trout, but they are so hard to keep happy. 1/3 of the trout i was getting for a system i am setting up in my basement didnt even survive the trip home. The next 1/3 died after getting them into the 35gallon tank before i was going to transfer them to the tote in the basement. Then after many water changes trying to keep the last few alive, i realized my tap water had dangerous levels of chloramine that was killing them all.. Unfortunately i couldnt stick my current system water in there as it was too warm. By the time i could fix the problem i was left with 1 lone trout. Ugh. Im not sure even the temps in my basement are cool enough to have the trout do well either. I may need a chiller just to make this work. I will be expanding the warm water system to include 2 more grow beds, the nitrate just is too much for the plants in the bed to use. It filters our deadly tap water well though. No ammonia even shows once it cycles into the system.

I used to trout fish with my dad as a kid, I imagine they would need lots of oxygen and cold water. Thinking along those lines, I wonder if fish that live in lakes would do better, like bass?

I think he wants a year round greenhouse that is kept warm like a building. Its hard either way i think. One you have to do mostly artificial lighting so lighting is much higher. Other hand, greenhouse would require more heat than the leds can supply but it wouldnt require much lighting. Thermal envelope in a building would be much easier to handle.

I've heard that parts of CO get enough sunshine per year to make solar a viable supplemental electrical source for heat. Geothermal would be optimal... hahaha... if we're dreaming.

Does make me wonder. If @ttystikk is starting with pot growing know-how and lights, and wanting to add aquaponics, a purely indoor set up that was based on standard cannabis growing models would work -- if selling the fish would pay for that part of the system on its own. I have no idea what the fish market is like. Unless the idea is that the fish are paying for themselves in saved fertilizer costs for the cannabis?

Admittedly negative, but one way to look at this is there is a reason everyone isn't doing it -- so what is that reason? It might be an initial level of difficulty that scares people off, but one that once overcome would make this worth the effort... or it might be that the economics don't work out. I have no idea.

 

[Ken Beck]

I used to trout fish with my dad as a kid, I imagine they would need lots of oxygen and cold water. Thinking along those lines, I wonder if fish that live in lakes would do better, like bass?


I've heard that parts of CO get enough sunshine per year to make solar a viable supplemental electrical source for heat. Geothermal would be optimal... hahaha... if we're dreaming.

Does make me wonder. If @ttystikk is starting with pot growing know-how and lights, and wanting to add aquaponics, a purely indoor set up that was based on standard cannabis growing models would work -- if selling the fish would pay for that part of the system on its own. I have no idea what the fish market is like. Unless the idea is that the fish are paying for themselves in saved fertilizer costs for the cannabis?

Admittedly negative, but one way to look at this is there is a reason everyone isn't doing it -- so what is that reason? It might be an initial level of difficulty that scares people off, but one that once overcome would make this worth the effort... or it might be that the economics don't work out. I have no idea.

We actually have lakes here in Michigan stocked with trout, but yea, the trout require high levels of oxygen to survive. Its actually the reason they die in warmer water, the DO levels saturate lower and lower as the temp goes up. Above 70°f, there isnt enough ability for the water to hold oxygen at the levels they need anymore and they suffocate.
Air source heat pumps are actually a better alternative to look at in conjunction with solar power. Ive seen fujitsu rls3h mini splits which are easy to install and cost only around $1500. Now you have to account for heat losses due to air leakage and for a greenhouse the materials used normally have very small heat retention values. It may have to be a mix of high insulation building and greenhouse to get that working with very little cost of heat and even lower lighting costs. I would determine the cost of heat versus the lighting costs to find out in that area if sunlight is worth the heat losses. You never know, maybe it will be better to have a building with no windows than to have an all glass greenhouse. In Michigan the angle of sunlight is either from south in winter or directly above in summer so a greenhouse the has angled glass on the south side and a flat back wall that is well insulated as well as a glass east and west side. But that only would work well for places as far up north as where i am

 

[ttystikk]

Are you thinking of a business not in Colorado, or in the second statement did you mean warehouse and not greenhouse?

I'm open to anywhere.

Warehouse or greenhouse, my LED lights could work either way.

 

[ttystikk]

What leds do you have on them? Any specs?

On my water cooled blocks I'm running CXB3590 CD bin chips, mostly 3500K 80CRI.

I also have a bunch of air cooled 4' long bars with midpower chips, these pull 250W each from the wall. I have about 120 of these.

I have a couple more miscellaneous LED fixtures, @Evil-Mobo made them, and even an old Mars Hydro 1600 and one or two more.

Homie got inventory!