Ethanol wash extraction.

[Fadedawg]

Okay thanks for the info. So just a matter of keeping at it until it gets to the desired lightness of color. I've read that chlorophyll is strongly absorbed by carbon, which is why you can remove it without losing much if any product. Maybe due to high polarity.

Actually I just got an idea. I use AeraMax carbon filter pads for odor absorbing on fans. It's about 1/4" thick pad. Don't know what the material of the pad is but probably is safe in alcohol. Could just toss a piece in the container and leave it sit until the color gets light enough. I'll try it next time.

I lost a lot of product with carbon, even if I pre-soaked the carbon in alcohol.

Chlorophyll does have a higher polarity than the terpenes due to the magnesium atom on one end.

 

[BobCajun]

I lost a lot of product with carbon, even if I pre-soaked the carbon in alcohol.

Chlorophyll does have a higher polarity than the terpenes due to the magnesium atom on one end.

Oh, well that doesn't sound good then. Back to the drawing board, as they say.

 

[gwpharms]

There's different types of carbon and different methods of using it depending on your application. I'm not losing a drop of oil here. At least I don't think so I don't know

here is sundays work. A charity run of 700 grams trimmings from some soso 22%ish donated flower yielded this 124 gram circle in the bottom of my 12 liter that tested at 88.8% Delta 9 today

Oh, well that doesn't sound good then. Back to the drawing board, as they say.

 

[BobCajun]

Maybe Fadedawg used too much carbon or something. Or maybe didn't rinse it enough with fresh alcohol. I'll definitely try it if mine comes out green.

 

[Fadedawg]

There's different types of carbon and different methods of using it depending on your application. I'm not losing a drop of oil here. At least I don't think so I don't know

here is sundays work. A charity run of 700 grams trimmings from some soso 22%ish donated flower yielded this 124 gram circle in the bottom of my 12 liter that tested at 88.8% Delta 9 today

Congratulations! Zero loss is not only impressive, I believe it to be a new world record. What brand and type of carbon and what method did you use for those impressive results?

What filtration level did you use to remove the carbon fines?

17.7% yield from so so trim from 22%ish flowers is also impressive. With quality trim from quality flowers, I typically average only around half, usually depending on how many popcorn buds are included.

My record using QWET on flowers is only about 21.6%, but it didn't need subsequent carbon filtration, so losses were also zero. Sadly that is good, but set no new world records.

 

[Fadedawg]

Maybe Fadedawg used too much carbon or something. Or maybe didn't rinse it enough with fresh alcohol. I'll definitely try it if mine comes out green.

I recommend that you do, and then lets have this conversation again.

It does bring up the point of control samples. How will you measure whether the carbon takes out target elements, along with the chlorophyll?

May I suggest that you take samples at each filtration stage and have them analyzed for firm fixed numbers?

If the attendant monoterpene content matters to you in your end product, you might also monitor those levels.

 

[BobCajun]

I recommend that you do, and then lets have this conversation again.

It does bring up the point of control samples. How will you measure whether the carbon takes out target elements, along with the chlorophyll?

May I suggest that you take samples at each filtration stage and have them analyzed for firm fixed numbers?

If the attendant monoterpene content matters to you in your end product, you might also monitor those levels.

I would, if I owned a lab. I've read enough scientific articles to be confident that there's no significant loss. If it takes green out I'll be satisfied. For controlled experiments, that would be your department, wouldn't it? Not trying to be rude or anything, just for stuff like that you're talking to the wrong guy.

 

[Fadedawg]

I would, if I owned a lab. I've read enough scientific articles to be confident that there's no significant loss. If it takes green out I'll be satisfied. For controlled experiments, that would be your department, wouldn't it? Not trying to be rude or anything, just for stuff like that you're talking to the wrong guy.

My suggestion that you do your own experiments was my attempt to cut to the chase and cease the meaningless discussions of opinions.

I've read lots of arguments both ways, including whether the carboxyl group's two oxygen atoms added polarity affects the results. Carbon filtration seemed like such a good idea and so easy, simply from reading Stark and D Gold from the 70's when I first got started, more than a decade ago.

Alas, I didn't find it the answer to the the maidens prayer for the reasons I've mentioned, and moved on, as did the general industry to seeking methods to reduce losses and retain more of the entourage terpenes.

Sharing my own experience is also my department and half the reason I'm here. Since you reject my input, I was suggesting a route by which you could empirically discover for yourself, rather that listen to me or others.

As you are the wrong guy for a controlled experiment, and don't like my input, I won't offer you further advice or tales from the archaic hoary tales of yore.

I do hope you will share the results of your experiment with the rest of us. I acknowledge that it makes purdier oil, but unless you have some actual measure of losses, how much weight shall we attach to one more opinion??

 

[BobCajun]

My suggestion that you do your own experiments was my attempt to cut to the chase and cease the meaningless discussions of opinions.

I've read lots of arguments both ways, including whether the carboxyl group's two oxygen atoms added polarity affects the results. Carbon filtration seemed like such a good idea and so easy, simply from reading Stark and D Gold from the 70's when I first got started, more than a decade ago.

Alas, I didn't find it the answer to the the maidens prayer for the reasons I've mentioned, and moved on, as did the general industry to seeking methods to reduce losses and retain more of the entourage terpenes.

Sharing my own experience is also my department and half the reason I'm here. Since you reject my input, I was suggesting a route by which you could empirically discover for yourself, rather that listen to me or others.

As you are the wrong guy for a controlled experiment, and don't like my input, I won't offer you further advice or tales from the archaic hoary tales of yore.

I do hope you will share the results of your experiment with the rest of us. I acknowledge that it makes purdier oil, but unless you have some actual measure of losses, how much weight shall we attach to one more opinion??

I just don't pick up chlorophyll in the first place, because I don't use dried material. I use material which still contains enough moisture to be completely flexible and to keep the alcohol out for several minutes. If you use dry material it will break up under any kind of handling or agitation, and it will absorb a lot of alcohol.

The reason I said I would try carbon is because the moist extraction is a new thing I only tried on a small scale so just in case there is some green I'll try carbon. You see, chlorophyll is insoluble in water, because otherwise it would wash right out of plants every time it rained. It can't be pulled out of the leaf until enough alcohol seeps inside there and mixes with the water to make it soluble. That would take time, because diffusion is slow.

Actually fresh material would produce the least green color because it has the most water, but the volume of fresh is so high that it would take a large container and a lot of alcohol. So I'll wait until the volume comes down considerably. With non-polar solvent dry material works fine, because chlorophyll is insoluble in it, can even grind it right up, but with polars like alcohol or acetone dry material is the worst condition possible. I know it seems odd that water and alcohol are both polar and yet chlorophyll is only soluble in alcohol and not water. Apparently it's a peculiar property of chlorophyll.

 

[Fadedawg]

I just don't pick up chlorophyll in the first place, because I don't use dried material. I use material which still contains enough moisture to be completely flexible and to keep the alcohol out for several minutes. If you use dry material it will break up under any kind of handling or agitation, and it will absorb a lot of alcohol.

The reason I said I would try carbon is because the moist extraction is a new thing I only tried on a small scale so just in case there is some green I'll try carbon. You see, chlorophyll is insoluble in water, because otherwise it would wash right out of plants every time it rained. It can't be pulled out of the leaf until enough alcohol seeps inside there and mixes with the water to make it soluble. That would take time, because diffusion is slow.

Actually fresh material would produce the least green color because it has the most water, but the volume of fresh is so high that it would take a large container and a lot of alcohol. So I'll wait until the volume comes down considerably. With non-polar solvent dry material works fine, because chlorophyll is insoluble in it, can even grind it right up, but with polars like alcohol or acetone dry material is the worst condition possible. I know it seems odd that water and alcohol are both polar and yet chlorophyll is only soluble in alcohol and not water. Apparently it's a peculiar property of chlorophyll.

That is because the chlorophyll has the magnesium atom on one end, so is hydrophylic on one end and hydrophobic on the other. They clump together and are transported in water by micelles.

https://skunkpharmresearch.com/chlorophyll-pickup-in-extractions/

 

[BobCajun]

That is because the chlorophyll has the magnesium atom on one end, so is hydrophylic on one end and hydrophobic on the other. They clump together and are transported in water by micelles.

https://skunkpharmresearch.com/chlorophyll-pickup-in-extractions/

So that's all it takes, washing with salt water? Sounds easy enough. Can it really be that simple? And what is the salt concentration required? Because it would be easy enough to wash the final extract, meaning solvent evaporated, in hot water. It becomes very thin in hot water and can be mixed around. So just wash with hot salt water followed by pure water, remove water, you're good.

 

[BobCajun]

I see what you mean. This page has similar stuff as on the skunkpharm page, apparently skunk got the information from there or both pages go it from the same other place. Actually you're with skunkpharm, aren't you?

1. Water and Sodium Chloride

Chlorophyll is not soluble in water. However, the water soluble compound chlorophyll binding molecules can be dissolved in water. This aspect makes it possible to use water to extract and move insoluble chlorophyll molecules. However, extraction of chlorophyll can be done by saturating the water with table salt, which contains sodium chloride. This mixture helps in separating chlorophyll from other extractions. Where membranes have been broken down by enzymes or by a detergent, the only way to extract chlorophyll from alcohol or non-polar solvents is to use lots of water and sodium chloride. The large non-polar areas on chlorophyll molecules make it easy to form a hydrophobic interface that shields the charge at the center. The salt exposes the charge and precipitates chlorophyll into water.

page

 

[gwpharms]

Congratulations! Zero loss is not only impressive, I believe it to be a new world record. What brand and type of carbon and what method did you use for those impressive results?

What filtration level did you use to remove the carbon fines?

17.7% yield from so so trim from 22%ish flowers is also impressive. With quality trim from quality flowers, I typically average only around half, usually depending on how many popcorn buds are included.

My record using QWET on flowers is only about 21.6%, but it didn't need subsequent carbon filtration, so losses were also zero. Sadly that is good, but set no new world records.

Hardly a record. Im not the only guy in the world doing this ya know. In fact i met a guy recently who makes an identical product as me. Mines the black cap.
and i was a little jelous of his numbers to be honest.
And as ironic luck would have it i was introduced to another extract just today that mirrored mine in every way. From tek to numbers.
Id call it a 16% return as 124 grams was the weight gain of the purge chamber afterwards and we did not collect the sugars and scrape the sidewalls and include that with the meds. I believe it filled around 115 1ml rso syringes with flowing oil. Whos counting? Quality not quantity.
From my high end growers stuff, 20%ish is normal, average enough to make us all happy.your 21.6 return sounds fine to me assuming it was potent.
most likely there is a gram or two i loose in every run.
i guess we'll call that the angels share. Im not doing small analytical batches so let them have it.
Im Not sure what the trimmings looked like because i didnt process it and load the extractor bodies. Could have been lots of pop corn in there i dont know. Its a bi monthly donation run we do for a growers co op of about 20 vets so there is a variety of flowers in there. Certainly Nothing over 25% though. I dont know why you had so much problems with losses. Certainly you have tried things in dr golds book you found to not work or found much better ways yourself or from other sources. Maybe this carbon thing is another one.

 

[ArcticGranite]

Try carbon or bentonite if you want your extract to have the color consistancy and flavors of bho. See pictures below. It will be all the things your bho is only way more potent and effective as a dab vape edible or smokable. And safer and unquestionable if its ok to cosume witgout testing.
Theres ways to get your yeilds up too. The big orange circle is 4 oz of oil containing 89% d9 from 700 grams of trim. The trim for this run wasn't from great quality plants

Most of the color is in the C-30 weight molecules, which are reduced by dropping the extraction temperature.

Strain also makes a difference.

Here is a Cheese QWET that we did in class and were in the process of volunteer panel testing.

Props. You make beautiful oil with good returns.

 

[Fadedawg]

Hardly a record. Im not the only guy in the world doing this ya know. In fact i met a guy recently who makes an identical product as me. Mines the black cap.
and i was a little jelous of his numbers to be honest.
And as ironic luck would have it i was introduced to another extract just today that mirrored mine in every way. From tek to numbers.
Id call it a 16% return as 124 grams was the weight gain of the purge chamber afterwards and we did not collect the sugars and scrape the sidewalls and include that with the meds. I believe it filled around 115 1ml rso syringes with flowing oil. Whos counting? Quality not quantity.
From my high end growers stuff, 20%ish is normal, average enough to make us all happy.your 21.6 return sounds fine to me assuming it was potent.
most likely there is a gram or two i loose in every run.
i guess we'll call that the angels share. Im not doing small analytical batches so let them have it.
Im Not sure what the trimmings looked like because i didnt process it and load the extractor bodies. Could have been lots of pop corn in there i dont know. Its a bi monthly donation run we do for a growers co op of about 20 vets so there is a variety of flowers in there. Certainly Nothing over 25% though. I dont know why you had so much problems with losses. Certainly you have tried things in dr golds book you found to not work or found much better ways yourself or from other sources. Maybe this carbon thing is another one.

I assure you zero loss is a world record.

You haven't shared what carbon you used and how you removed the fines?

 

[Fadedawg]

I see what you mean. This page has similar stuff as on the skunkpharm page, apparently skunk got the information from there or both pages go it from the same other place. Actually you're with skunkpharm, aren't you?

Yes, I post at Skunk Pharm Research as Graywolf and that is mine and Joe's post.

 

[gwpharms]

I assure you zero loss is a world record.

You haven't shared what carbon you used and how you removed the fines?

Well then world records are being broken all over every day by multiple people. To bad you cant see through those butane goggles joe sewed on your face.
Like i said i probably do loose a drop or two but whos counting. Quality not quantity. Cannabinoid oils not just weight. Milligrams of thc not non polar fat wax lipids and residual solvents.

The world thinks it hillarious you dont know how to keep out the micro fines. I dont want to take that away from them.
If you want to know you just need find someone who meets 2 requirements
A: they have this information
B: they actually like you.

I can only fulfill one of those requirements.

Anyone who is not gray wolf and his puppet master can pm me if they are having as much trouble as him wrapping their heads around this.



To bad joe dosent want you, his ignorant monkey boy patsy to know this information
or maybe its just your nda with him that keeps you from acknowledging what works for other people i dont know.

I'll stand by while joe inserts his hand up your ass and the two of you can group author a response.

 

[BobCajun]

There's actually another good reason to use carbon. One article I read showed that carbon treated extracts degraded at half the rate of untreated. It must pull out something else that causes degradation, whatever it may be. Maybe chlorophyll itself increases it. Also when they used carbon on hops extracts it would make extracts from old partially degraded hops smell and taste like fresh hops extract. It's just a generally good step to include, if you want highest quality product. Now if quality is not your prime concern then it may not be worth the extra effort and slight loss. My guess is that any weight loss is due to absorbing undesirable compounds out of it anyway.

If you really wanted clean product you could fill a glass tube with silica granules (kitty litter section) and pour the alcohol with the green oil in it down the tube. You could visually see where the chlorophyll fraction is in the tube and exclude it, then wash the clear parts out with fresh alcohol. If you could design an apparatus that would allow easy pulling out of various sections you might have a valuable product. Maybe column chromatography isn't quite that simple but you know what I mean. I know it can be done with chromatography paper, the green part can be seen and separated.

 

[gwpharms]

Your on the right track

There's actually another good reason to use carbon. One article I read showed that carbon treated extracts degraded at half the rate of untreated. It must pull out something else that causes degradation, whatever it may be. Maybe chlorophyll itself increases it. Also when they used carbon on hops extracts it would make extracts from old partially degraded hops smell and taste like fresh hops extract. It's just a generally good step to include, if you want highest quality product. Now if quality is not your prime concern then it may not be worth the extra effort and slight loss. My guess is that any weight loss is due to absorbing undesirable compounds out of it anyway.

If you really wanted clean product you could fill a glass tube with silica granules (kitty litter section) and pour the alcohol with the green oil in it down the tube. You could visually see where the chlorophyll fraction is in the tube and exclude it, then wash the clear parts out with fresh alcohol. If you could design an apparatus that would allow easy pulling out of various sections you might have a valuable product. Maybe column chromatography isn't quite that simple but you know what I mean. I know it can be done with chromatography paper, the green part can be seen and separated.

 

[BobCajun]

What if you could see the fractions in extract like in the pic below. It's not from Cannabis, just spinach. However, with weed oil that light part above the green part would probably be primo. You just cut that part out with scissors and extract it out. You got yourself some "chroma gold". The dark "bottoms" could be sold to rubes for edibles.

source