what are "identity politics" and why do they make you so angry?

[Padawanbater2]

“It goes without saying that as we fight to end all forms of discrimination, as we fight to bring more and more women into the political process, Latinos, African Americans, Native Americans — all of that is enormously important, and count me in as somebody who wants to see that happen.”

“Right now, we’ve made some progress in getting women into politics — I think we got 20 women in the Senate now. We need 50 women in the Senate. We need more African Americans.”

“But it’s not good enough to say, “Hey, I’m a Latina, vote for me.” That is not good enough. I have to know whether that Latina is going to stand up with the working class of this country, and is going to take on big money interests.”

Proves all yours and Fogdogs bullshit strawmen as nonsense.

 

[UncleBuck]

Avoid policy at all cost. Watch where it gets you.

how do you think that mexican family i talked to while canvassing would respond to bernie sanders' claim that trump isn't racist and your insistence that they just need to get over their "identity politics"?

 

[abandonconflict]

"Please just keep your personal problems quiet, shut the fuck up, fall in line and support this candidate..."

That is what is coming across when someone has a problem with idpol.

 

[Padawanbater2]

how do you think that mexican family i talked to while canvassing would respond to bernie sanders' claim that trump isn't racist and your insistence that they just need to get over their "identity politics"?

Right. That's what I said, that's what Sanders said, they just need to get over it...

“It goes without saying that as we fight to end all forms of discrimination, as we fight to bring more and more women into the political process, Latinos, African Americans, Native Americans — all of that is enormously important, and count me in as somebody who wants to see that happen.”

“Right now, we’ve made some progress in getting women into politics — I think we got 20 women in the Senate now. We need 50 women in the Senate. We need more African Americans.”

“But it’s not good enough to say, “Hey, I’m a Latina, vote for me.” That is not good enough. I have to know whether that Latina is going to stand up with the working class of this country, and is going to take on big money interests.” -Bernie Sanders


So what does someone do when they can't win a fair fight?

 

[UncleBuck]

Right. That's what I said, that's what Sanders said, they just need to get over it...

i guess it wasn't those exact words that you used to bemoan and villify identity politics over and over and over again.

They've focused too much on identity politics

No, all you have is this identity bullshit?

I said identity politics is annoying to middle America

 

[Padawanbater2]

They lie

 

[ttystikk]

i guess it wasn't those exact words that you used to bemoan and villify identity politics over and over and over again.

You're a one trick pony.

I thought you'd be good for a discussion about policy and issues, but you're stuck on division; how to cut others down, how to split things up.

Why aren't you interested in solutions?

None of those groups you vociferously defend would suffer by taking on the big money interests.

I think you don't want to see that happen.

 

[UncleBuck]

You're a one trick pony.

I thought you'd be good for a discussion about policy and issues, but you're stuck on division; how to cut others down, how to split things up.

Why aren't you interested in solutions?

None of those groups you vociferously defend would suffer by taking on the big money interests.

I think you don't want to see that happen.

where have i ever spoken out against taking on "big money interests"?

 

[ttystikk]

where have i ever spoken out against taking on "big money interests"?

When have you ever made it a subject of one of your posts, seriously discussed it or declared your unequivocal support for it?

 

[UncleBuck]

When have you ever made it a subject of one of your posts, seriously discussed it or declared your unequivocal support for it?

i bet you i have more posts complaining about citizens united than you do.

 

[ttystikk]

i bet you i have more posts complaining about citizens united than you do.

View attachment 3918820

Well, you also have almost 3 times as many posts as I do. Did you complain about them 3 times as much?

Sam Clements was right about statistics!

 

[UncleBuck]

Well, you also have almost 3 times as many posts as I do. Did you complain about them 3 times as much?

Sam Clements was right about statistics!

i'd be willing to cede the ratio.

 

[ttystikk]

i'd be willing to cede the ratio.

Ok.

So let's talk policy.

 

[abandonconflict]

Let's patiently heed the identity politics. Let's listen to the words of the historically and presently persecuted minorities. Let's stop making it seem like criticizing white male heterosexuals is going to destroy leftwing unity. Don't be such a snowflake white guys...

 

[Fogdog]

Right. That's what I said, that's what Sanders said, they just need to get over it...

“It goes without saying that as we fight to end all forms of discrimination, as we fight to bring more and more women into the political process, Latinos, African Americans, Native Americans — all of that is enormously important, and count me in as somebody who wants to see that happen.”

“Right now, we’ve made some progress in getting women into politics — I think we got 20 women in the Senate now. We need 50 women in the Senate. We need more African Americans.”

“But it’s not good enough to say, “Hey, I’m a Latina, vote for me.” That is not good enough. I have to know whether that Latina is going to stand up with the working class of this country, and is going to take on big money interests.” -Bernie Sanders


So what does someone do when they can't win a fair fight?

Where in this passage does Sanders say "they need to get over it"

I don't read that in this passage from Sanders at all.

What he actually said was "move beyond".

In any case, this kind of rhetoric is quite possibly why Sanders failed in the south during the primary. I don't think an "all lives matter" movement addresses black people being killed by a racially biased justice system. I don't think a "working class" focus can address racist hiring and wages issues. I see no reason why people of color or women or LGBT should drop working on what's important to them "for the greater good" of the working class, most of whom are white people who already have it better. I see no reason why Sanders and the Democratic party shouldn't account for their demands.

Here's an alternate view with excerpts below:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/22/bernie-sanders-identity-politics-class-race-debate

Bernie Sanders still says class is more important than race. He is still wrong
Michael Arceneaux

But Sanders, like the others parading this pedestrian punditry in the aftermath of the news that most white people voted for Donald Trump, is missing the point while continuing to promote the very ideas that sunk him during the primary. He lost many potential voters of color because we know color-blind economic policies alone will not change certain realities of racism in America. They might “make America great again”, but only for people who have always had it pretty good.
---------

Why should we pretend “identity politics” hasn’t always been America’s way – that discounting them invalidates the lived experience of the very people that opted against sending him to the general election?

When Bernie Sanders talks about the Democratic party’s failure to reach working-class white voters, he manages to somehow forget he lost to a woman who bested him partly because she spoke of the need of criminal justice reform and the overall role racism plays in America before he did.

Nonetheless, Hillary Clinton went on to lose to a demagogue who promised to restore the nation to an image that excluded Americans like me and like the woman who dreams of becoming a US senator.

 

[Fogdog]

I think the point was not to forget the underlying economic issues affecting all those identity groups.

People working as a group to get their issues on the table are no different from what you just said. I see no reason why their voice should not be heard and accounted for as well as "the underlying economic issues".

 

[ttystikk]

Where in this passage does Sanders say "they need to get over it"

I don't read that in this passage from Sanders at all.

What he actually said was "move beyond".

In any case, this kind of rhetoric is quite possibly why Sanders failed in the south during the primary. I don't think an "all lives matter" movement addresses black people being killed by a racially biased justice system. I don't think a "working class" focus can address racist hiring and wages issues. I see no reason why people of color or women or LGBT should drop working on what's important to them "for the greater good" of the working class, most of whom are white people who already have it better. I see no reason why Sanders and the Democratic party shouldn't account for their demands.

Here's an alternate view with excerpts below:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/22/bernie-sanders-identity-politics-class-race-debate

Bernie Sanders still says class is more important than race. He is still wrong
Michael Arceneaux

But Sanders, like the others parading this pedestrian punditry in the aftermath of the news that most white people voted for Donald Trump, is missing the point while continuing to promote the very ideas that sunk him during the primary. He lost many potential voters of color because we know color-blind economic policies alone will not change certain realities of racism in America. They might “make America great again”, but only for people who have always had it pretty good.
---------

Why should we pretend “identity politics” hasn’t always been America’s way – that discounting them invalidates the lived experience of the very people that opted against sending him to the general election?

When Bernie Sanders talks about the Democratic party’s failure to reach working-class white voters, he manages to somehow forget he lost to a woman who bested him partly because she spoke of the need of criminal justice reform and the overall role racism plays in America before he did.

Nonetheless, Hillary Clinton went on to lose to a demagogue who promised to restore the nation to an image that excluded Americans like me and like the woman who dreams of becoming a US senator.

This squares well with my post from last night.

People working as a group to get their issues on the table are no different from what you just said. I see no reason why their voice should not be heard and accounted for as well as "the underlying economic issues".

Economic reform does help people of color, but only if they feel their other needs are addressed as well.

 

[Fogdog]

Economic reform does help people of color, but only if they feel their other needs are addressed as well.

This whole thread pertains to the idea that identity politics are somehow bad in some left leaning people's minds. What Sanders had been quoted as saying is:

“And one message I do have for Democrats is that a strategy that’s just micro-targeting particular, discrete groups in a Democratic coalition sometimes will win you elections, but it’s not going to win you the broad mandate that you need,”

"It is not good enough for somebody to say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me.' That is not good enough," Sanders told a crowd at the Berklee Performance Center in Boston, according to WBUR. "What we need is a woman who has the guts to stand up to Wall Street, to the insurance companies, to the drug companies, to the fossil fuel industries.”

Somehow, @Padawanbater2 , and you seem to take this as "get over" identity politics. Or more accurately, Paddy said "get over it". Maybe I'm lumping you two together and will stand corrected if so. In any case, "get over" or "must end" identity politics is not what Sanders is saying. He's saying more than micro-targeting is needed to win. While true, his statement is a straw man argument. Because no serious candidate for a state or federal legislator post campaigned as though "micro targeting" by itself would win an election.

 

[ttystikk]

This whole thread pertains to the idea that identity politics are somehow bad in some left leaninb people's minds. What Sanders had been quoted as saying is:

“And one message I do have for Democrats is that a strategy that’s just micro-targeting particular, discrete groups in a Democratic coalition sometimes will win you elections, but it’s not going to win you the broad mandate that you need,”

"It is not good enough for somebody to say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me.' That is not good enough," Sanders told a crowd at the Berklee Performance Center in Boston, according to WBUR. "What we need is a woman who has the guts to stand up to Wall Street, to the insurance companies, to the drug companies, to the fossil fuel industries.”

Somehow, @Padawanbater2 , and you seem to take this as "get over" identity politics. Or more accurately, Paddy said "get over it". Maybe I'm lumping you two together and will stand corrected if so. In any case, "get over" or "must end" identity politics is not what Sanders is saying. He's saying more than micro-targeting is needed to win. While true, his statement is a straw man argument. Because no serious candidate for a state or federal legislator post campaigned as though "micro targeting" by itself would win an election.

The post you just quoted is my attempt to say what you just did here.

The war is won on the back of many smaller battles. I used to think that identity politics was a distraction but this very discussion has changed my thinking.

 

[Fogdog]

The post you just quoted is my attempt to say what you just did here.

The war is won on the back of many smaller battles. I used to think that identity politics was a distraction but this very discussion has changed my thinking.

Aren't identity politics just groups of people who agree on a course of action or policies and come together to get their issues addressed? How is that different from unions or the Sierra Club? What Paddy is saying and I thought you too, was that we have to abandon "identity politics" for some greater good like better conditions for all workers? It is not true that people who are black will do better when all worker's conditions are better. And so, there is a need for special interest groups to make the whole initiative better.