Vero vs Citizen

[KonopCh]

Okay guys, I still don't understand some members here saying that Citizen is better than Vero.
Look at spreadsheets... set temperature to 25 (like Vero) or 85 (like Citizen), whatever. I personally compare Vero V22 gen 7 vs. 1818 gen 6. Vero wins. And some members even says that 1212 is better than Cree CXB, so better than Vero V29 gen 7 D. ? What?!?

What I am missing here? I only see people defend their COBs because they're selling it.

 

[TogiX]

There's no point in comparing COBs using speadsheets (or anything but real world experiments for that matter) because the accuracy of the efficacy has been in doubt ever since ChilLed's lab sphere reports saying CXB3590 is 52.5% eff. @ ~24w.

 

[KonopCh]

There's no point in comparing COBs using speadsheets (or anything but real world experiments for that matter) because the accuracy of the efficacy has been in doubt ever since ChilLed's lab sphere reports saying CXB3590 is 52.5% eff. @ ~24w.

So anyone have better accuracy tests? Repeatable 100x times?
We need camera, meter/ruller and some device to meassure light?

 

[CobKits]

both are great chips and great values

send me a vero 22 and ill test it next to a citi

heres my test of vero29 gen 7 vs citi gen 5



id have to guess based on the relative performance of V22C vs the V29 veros ive tested and relative gen 6 to gen 5 citi performance, that the vero 22 would hang well with the 1818 up to 50W then drop off. it doesnt have the V29 performance as you approach 100W, prob package size limited on dissipation.

just a guess

 

[CobKits]

And some members even says that 1212 is better than Cree CXB

what is "better"? a single 1212 is in between a 3070 and 3590 in performance at the chip level

$1000 spent on a citi rig will outperform $1000 spent on a cree rig in both overall par and efficiency. that sounds "better" to me for most people. Cost is still the biggest barrier to cob adoption and its fantastic that we have manufacturers clawing at each other right now and driving prices down

 

[KonopCh]

What is "better"?
Overall cost (not only COBs but also drivers, heatsinks etc.), lumens per watt (efficiency) I guess.
Yes, 1212 are waaay cheaper than CXB, but you need more drivers, heatsinks, wires, add way more weight to tent ceiling...

Right now I am looking for 200W fixture, what gives me more... And 4x V22 C is 14 bucks, driven at 1050 mA is cheapest and best (efficiency) option. And "better" than CXB, 1818, XYZ.

 

[Abiqua]

What is "better"?
Overall cost (not only COBs but also drivers, heatsinks etc.), lumens per watt (efficiency) I guess.
Yes, 1212 are waaay cheaper than CXB, but you need more drivers, heatsinks, wires, add way more weight to tent ceiling...

Right now I am looking for 200W fixture, what gives me more... And 4x V22 C is 14 bucks, driven at 1050 mA is cheapest and best (efficiency) option. And "better" than CXB, 1818, XYZ.

act on that gut feeling....

does everyone drive a suburu or toyota? probably not but diff engineering has led to similar success etc etc

There are other options as well such as bridgelux eb or quantums

ppf / $ is my comparison

 

[CobKits]

ppf / $ is my comparison

Me too which is why im all about the 1212 and the cxm22

those veros do look like a great option as well

 

[Abiqua]

i am not talking about what the diode produces but the overall cost of the ppf...everything including my elucidations...
konop has correctly mentioned overall costs being higher with lower wattages and multiple diodes.......which is usually true of most diodes in general whether cob or single spaced

 

[CobKits]

Yes, 1212 are waaay cheaper than CXB, but you need more drivers

driver cost/watt is pretty flat across the board. 1212s are also right about the same nominal voltage as cxbs so they generally use the same drivers

 

[Raging Stalk]

Why do you need more drivers? You can run citizens in both series and parallel like any other cob.

 

[KonopCh]

Me too which is why im all about the 1212 and the cxm22

those veros do look like a great option as well

Anyone have data for V22 gen 7 (calculator) or 1212/1818 gen 6.?

 

[CobKits]

vero calc:

http://www.bridgelux.com/product-simulator

citi calc:

http://cobkits.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/CITILED_Ver6_COBs_Selection-Tool-ver1.02.xlsx

 

[KonopCh]

I mean PPF data... umols...

 

[CobKits]

for a given spectrum ppf and lumens are proportional

 

[KonopCh]

for a given spectrum ppf and umol are proportional

Yea, yea... But show us datasheets, numbers.

 

[CobKits]

ive already linked the calculators. i personally find them more useful than the datsheets but YMMV

hers all the citi datasheets:
http://ce.citizen.co.jp/productse/info.php?no=116

im sure the vero ones on are their website. heres V29 gen 7:
http://www.bridgelux.com/sites/default/files/resource_media/DS93 Vero 29 Array Data Sheet Rev A 20160622.pdf

 

[BuddyColas]

Yea, yea... But show us datasheets, numbers.

Check out the "par multiplier thread" in this section of RIU. That and a calculator app and you will be cob ninja!

 

[Raging Stalk]

Rahz is on a mission to get the Vero g7 spd sheets. Without those, we are almost flying blind and defaulted to the gen6 numbers since the g7 should be better.

 

[KonopCh]

Vero vs. Citizen is thread...

Gen 7 Vero wins in (all) currents as can I see. They are also cheaper, and only V22 C (which is 14 bucks) is over 160 lm/W at 1050 mA. Comparing with 1212 and more expensive 1818 gen 6 (21 bucks). At the same temperatures, CRI and spectrum (3000K, 3500K, 80 CRI)!! Even if you drive 2x 1212 at 700 mA, they are more expensive than Vero V22 C.

So I think this is best COB for your money in this class (for 200-300W).