"If you do not believe in climate change, you should not be allowed to hold public office"

[Padawanbater2]

In many ways for many people, things have gotten better.

By what metric?

Do you suffer from the same delusion the Clinton campaign tried to push during the election? If you think "America is already great", you probably haven't done much looking around these past 8 years or taken in an honest representation of the crumbling state of the union under the leadership of Obama and the Democratic establishment. Hey, it was certainly GREAT for billionaires and elites during Obama's administration, but how did the poor and middle-class fare? $30,000/year for more than 50% of the country?

Not much of an accomplishment..

Over a 60 year period. Things are better from the perspective of social issues but not in terms of prosperity.

Right, so why would more moderates who follow the corporate status quo be the answer? They follow the same economic model Republicans follow because they are financed by the exact same industries Republicans are. The financiers fund both sides to ensure whichever side wins, they are taken care of. This is why corporatist Democrats are just as much an enemy to progress as Republicans, they fight for the same things in congress; See Cory Booker's recent vote to keep drug prices high, see the handful of "Democrats" votes to confirm Rick Perry and Ben Carson, check their campaign finance contributions.. They don't even hide the shit at this point since they don't have to since corruption has been legalized by the Citizens United decision.

If you think "things are better", you haven't been paying attention for the past 3 decades, at least.

You say that going more progressive would accomplish this. I don't understand this way of thinking. I don't see evidence that it is true.

Then you're either not looking, blind, or blinded by confirmation bias. I suspect option C in your case;

Majority in U.S. Support Idea of Fed-Funded Healthcare System
New Pew Poll Confirms Americans Ready to End War on Drugs
Majority of Americans Want College to Be Free
Most Americans for Raising Minimum Wage
More than 8 in 10 voters (83%) support tougher rules and enforcement for Wall Street financial companies, while just 9% believe financial companies have changed their practices and don’t need further regulation

The platform to win is obvious and quite clear. The problem is that establishment Democrats have decided they would rather lose to Republicans then let actual progressives win elections because they know that if actual progressives win, they will eliminate the channels of corruption that allow them [establishment Democrats] to thrive. Since Republicans are just as corrupt, if not more so than establishment Democrats, they're [establishment Democrats] willing to let them [establishment Republicans] win because they know they won't threaten their ability to remain corrupt for future elections. That's why establishment shills like Schumer and Pelosi are so goddamn weak when it comes to actually addressing despicable policy.

it is one issue that Democrats own outright.]
I'm sure you and Perez would love to believe that!

But it is not as important as bread and butter issues like wage stagnation and jobs.

This; campaign finance and corporate funding of political elections, is the MOST important issue the DNC and the Democratic party currently faces. If you don't recognize that, you don't understand politics. The schism between the progressive wing of the Democratic party and the establishment wing will destroy the party completely unless moderates, like you and Buck, cede control. If you don't, I'm absolutely willing to tear it down because I don't believe such a corrupt organization deserves to exist. Call me petty or selfish or (use your imagination, I don't really care), you are wrong, you had your chance to run a moderate candidate and she lost her ass in embarrassing fashion. You don't get a second chance. Shut your mouth, fall in line and watch how it's done, or simply go fuck yourself. I, along with millions of other actual progressives are done with your ass.

Get on board or go under, fuck if I care.

 

[UncleBuck]

Look at that shit, you manage to find it with a Google search!

No doubt Ginja will need a citation for your citation cited from another citation tho and probably call fake news on you.

ginja is pretty thorough like that, but he's good people.

 

[ttystikk]

I think this summer in the northern hemisphere is going to change some minds about ACC/AGW.

I find myself hoping to see a foot or more of sea level rise in my lifetime. That would flood out millions of people in some of the most densely populated cities in the world- and would make it very clear that if something isn't done the world would lose far more than burning fossil fuels gained it.

 

[Fogdog]

By what metric?

Do you suffer from the same delusion the Clinton campaign tried to push during the election? If you think "America is already great", you probably haven't done much looking around these past 8 years or taken in an honest representation of the crumbling state of the union under the leadership of Obama and the Democratic establishment. Hey, it was certainly GREAT for billionaires and elites during Obama's administration, but how did the poor and middle-class fare? $30,000/year for more than 50% of the country?

Not much of an accomplishment..

Right, so why would more moderates who follow the corporate status quo be the answer? They follow the same economic model Republicans follow because they are financed by the exact same industries Republicans are. The financiers fund both sides to ensure whichever side wins, they are taken care of. This is why corporatist Democrats are just as much an enemy to progress as Republicans, they fight for the same things in congress; See Cory Booker's recent vote to keep drug prices high, see the handful of "Democrats" votes to confirm Rick Perry and Ben Carson, check their campaign finance contributions.. They don't even hide the shit at this point since they don't have to since corruption has been legalized by the Citizens United decision.

If you think "things are better", you haven't been paying attention for the past 3 decades, at least.

Then you're either not looking, blind, or blinded by confirmation bias. I suspect option C in your case;

Majority in U.S. Support Idea of Fed-Funded Healthcare System
New Pew Poll Confirms Americans Ready to End War on Drugs
Majority of Americans Want College to Be Free
Most Americans for Raising Minimum Wage
More than 8 in 10 voters (83%) support tougher rules and enforcement for Wall Street financial companies, while just 9% believe financial companies have changed their practices and don’t need further regulation

The platform to win is obvious and quite clear. The problem is that establishment Democrats have decided they would rather lose to Republicans then let actual progressives win elections because they know that if actual progressives win, they will eliminate the channels of corruption that allow them [establishment Democrats] to thrive. Since Republicans are just as corrupt, if not more so than establishment Democrats, they're [establishment Democrats] willing to let them [establishment Republicans] win because they know they won't threaten their ability to remain corrupt for future elections. That's why establishment shills like Schumer and Pelosi are so goddamn weak when it comes to actually addressing despicable policy.

tldr

I have no idea what you propose to do.

do you think that the reason so many states are firmly behind the GOP is because the Democratic Party is not liberal enough?

 

[UncleBuck]

He's all up in my shit so for now he can just fuck off, I'd have posted a link if he didn't charge into the thread with "blood coming out his eyes, blood coming out other places too" (as the President would say).

yeah, he's like that sometimes.

still good people though.

 

[ttystikk]

By what metric?

Do you suffer from the same delusion the Clinton campaign tried to push during the election? If you think "America is already great", you probably haven't done much looking around these past 8 years or taken in an honest representation of the crumbling state of the union under the leadership of Obama and the Democratic establishment. Hey, it was certainly GREAT for billionaires and elites during Obama's administration, but how did the poor and middle-class fare? $30,000/year for more than 50% of the country?

Not much of an accomplishment..

Right, so why would more moderates who follow the corporate status quo be the answer? They follow the same economic model Republicans follow because they are financed by the exact same industries Republicans are. The financiers fund both sides to ensure whichever side wins, they are taken care of. This is why corporatist Democrats are just as much an enemy to progress as Republicans, they fight for the same things in congress; See Cory Booker's recent vote to keep drug prices high, see the handful of "Democrats" votes to confirm Rick Perry and Ben Carson, check their campaign finance contributions.. They don't even hide the shit at this point since they don't have to since corruption has been legalized by the Citizens United decision.

If you think "things are better", you haven't been paying attention for the past 3 decades, at least.

Then you're either not looking, blind, or blinded by confirmation bias. I suspect option C in your case;

Majority in U.S. Support Idea of Fed-Funded Healthcare System
New Pew Poll Confirms Americans Ready to End War on Drugs
Majority of Americans Want College to Be Free
Most Americans for Raising Minimum Wage
More than 8 in 10 voters (83%) support tougher rules and enforcement for Wall Street financial companies, while just 9% believe financial companies have changed their practices and don’t need further regulation

The platform to win is obvious and quite clear. The problem is that establishment Democrats have decided they would rather lose to Republicans then let actual progressives win elections because they know that if actual progressives win, they will eliminate the channels of corruption that allow them [establishment Democrats] to thrive. Since Republicans are just as corrupt, if not more so than establishment Democrats, they're [establishment Democrats] willing to let them [establishment Republicans] win because they know they won't threaten their ability to remain corrupt for future elections. That's why establishment shills like Schumer and Pelosi are so goddamn weak when it comes to actually addressing despicable policy.

We agree. The status quo, or anything resembling it is not going to change income inequality or serve the needs of the average American going forward.

Time for dramatic change. Why should such be the exclusive preview of the right wing?

 

[ttystikk]

tldr

I have no idea what you propose to do.

do you think that the reason so many states are firmly behind the GOP is because the Democratic Party is not liberal enough?

I believe it's because the Democratic party is doing such a miserable job of representing its constituents that people are willing to vote for any alternative, no matter how ridiculous.

 

[Fogdog]

not climate science

on what is needed to break free from co2 based energy prodution

solar and wind arent the magic bullets people think they are. and its even worse when people make shit up about what they can do
no there plenty of people out there including pipedreamers and myself arguing aganst them.
i just argue against the pipedreamers too as they can also be wrong sometimes

wrong word? cute
"citation needed"
as you seem to know excatly what he was talking about perhaps you could provide a link?

or are you talking out of your arse too here?

nope just to be willing to show what your talking about with say links rather than vagueries?

all this bitching cause i asked for a link

wanna cookie?

what citation are you looking for?

Nobody owes you anything. You can ask of course.

I don't much care for twostroke but he certainly did find a 2 kw panel.

LOL. When I was nine, I mis-identified a butterfly. Called it a Tiger Swallowtail when it was an Anise Swallowtail. You are so right about dreamers getting it wrong and setting back science. I'm pretty sure that world history changed when I mis-identified that Swallowtail. It's famous. They call it the butterfly effect. (snicker)

 

[UncleBuck]

tldr

I have no idea what you propose to do.

do you think that the reason so many states are firmly behind the GOP is because the Democratic Party is not liberal enough?

i liked the first half of it until he went into his new "establishment bad, super uber progressives good" thing again.

i am much more with ttystikk here. the diagnosis of why america is not great in the first half of pada's post is spot on. minimum wage needs to go up, the prison population needs to go way down, wages and corporate profits need to go up in parity, home ownership should be more accessible, health care spending needs to go down, and accessibility to higher education and trades needs to go up. all of us libtards agree on these things.

tty agrees though that incremental change is worth fighting for. i think he sees the bigger picture better than pada does. until we can vote in anyone in 2018 with a D next to their name though, these issues are going to go into reverse. and the DCCC and DSCC are going to run whoever they can for the most part, without purity tests.

as a moderate liberal, i find incrementalism OK. more liberal liberals like pada and tty don't so much, but some accept it better than others.

all that said, i think pada will like brianna wu and ted lieu. he should look them up, if he's listening to us. they are hardcore, non-establisment liberals on the rise. i think all of us can rally behind future leaders like them.

 

[Fogdog]

I believe it's because the Democratic party is doing such a miserable job of representing its constituents that people are willing to vote for any alternative, no matter how ridiculous.

I don't get it. Year after year, more states vote in Republican leadership and representatives. You say it's because Democrats are not explaining things properly.

Oh and Paddy cites polls that should indicate Democrats winning those elections. We aren't.

Maybe people are voting in Republicans because they are more conservative than Democratic leaders are.

 

[Padawanbater2]

I have no idea what you propose to do.

I propose selling a winning political ideology to Americans. Something that both conservatives and progressives can agree with. As I've shown, they want the same things. Universal healthcare, Universal college, etc. Strengthening unions and workers rights.

do you think that the reason so many states are firmly behind the GOP is because the Democratic Party is not liberal enough?

I think so many states are behind the GOP because the Democratic party hasn't given the voters in those states an applicable alternative to institutional corruption. When both parties are seen as corrupt in the eye of the average American, the one seen as less corrupt will inevitably win.. Which is ironic considering the one considered less corrupt was a billionaire straight from the oligarchy... That's how far we had to fall to beat Hillary Clinton.. - that fact alone should tell you something if you've been paying attention.. -

I think so many states are behind the GOP because people see the Democratic establishment for what it is; corruption. They saw how they conducted the Democratic primary, and as much as the establishment want's to deny it, the corruption was obvious. Now they're the loudest voices for unity (ROFL!).

Perez and DWS and Brazil and the entire leadership of the DNC can rightly unify right underneath deez nutz. They lose an entire generation of progressives. Good fucking luck winning another election.

 

[UncleBuck]

ironic considering the one considered less corrupt was a billionaire straight from the oligarchy... That's how far we had to fall to beat Hillary Clinton..

but the stuff about clinton was 99% bullshit.

and what we're finding out about trump is seventy four times worse than we thought in october last year.

my question is not so much a disagreement with you, but more of a "how can they be so stupid?".

i mean, i saw all these trump conflicts of interest and foreign collusions and constitutional crises while you were still asking about why she was coughing.

 

[SneekyNinja]

I propose selling a winning political ideology to Americans. Something that both conservatives and progressives can agree with. As I've shown, they want the same things. Universal healthcare, Universal college, etc. Strengthening unions and workers rights.

I think so many states are behind the GOP because the Democratic party hasn't given the voters in those states an applicable alternative to institutional corruption. When both parties are seen as corrupt in the eye of the average American, the one seen as less corrupt will inevitably win.. Which is ironic considering the one considered less corrupt was a billionaire straight from the oligarchy... That's how far we had to fall to beat Hillary Clinton.. - that fact alone should tell you something if you've been paying attention.. -

I think so many states are behind the GOP because people see the Democratic establishment for what it is; corruption. They saw how they conducted the Democratic primary, and as much as the establishment want's to deny it, the corruption was obvious. Now they're the loudest voices for unity (ROFL!).

Perez and DWS and Brazil and the entire leadership of the DNC can rightly unify right underneath deez nutz. They lose an entire generation of progressives. Good fucking luck winning another election.

I'm sure all the Trump supporters want that shit.

There is no "one size fits all" policy.

 

[Fogdog]

I propose selling a winning political ideology to Americans. Something that both conservatives and progressives can agree with. As I've shown, they want the same things. Universal healthcare, Universal college, etc. Strengthening unions and workers rights.

I think so many states are behind the GOP because the Democratic party hasn't given the voters in those states an applicable alternative to institutional corruption. When both parties are seen as corrupt in the eye of the average American, the one seen as less corrupt will inevitably win.. Which is ironic considering the one considered less corrupt was a billionaire straight from the oligarchy... That's how far we had to fall to beat Hillary Clinton.. - that fact alone should tell you something if you've been paying attention.. -

I think so many states are behind the GOP because people see the Democratic establishment for what it is; corruption. They saw how they conducted the Democratic primary, and as much as the establishment want's to deny it, the corruption was obvious. Now they're the loudest voices for unity (ROFL!).

Perez and DWS and Brazil and the entire leadership of the DNC can rightly unify right underneath deez nutz. They lose an entire generation of progressives. Good fucking luck winning another election.

I have a brother who is pretty much far right. He doesn't think the Democratic Party is not liberal enough. Those people who turned the election for Trump weren't voting Republican because they weren't given access to universal healthcare. They voted for Trump because Democrats weren't promising to improve jobs and wages in their locale. Trump did. It's about jobs, economy, and "what have you done for me lately?" not liberal vs conservative.

As far as "corruption" goes. My state has two democratic senators and four democratic representatives. I don't think they are corrupt. DeFazio, the rep for my district advocated that the US govt simply buy out the mortgages for people stuck with homes that were worth much less than the amount they owed. He said it would have been much cheaper and more effective than what Obama ended up doing. I'm saying this because I support liberal politicians. And DeFazio, Merkely, Wyden are good for my state and district. I expect Senators and Representatives in more conservative districts are probably not going to support some of their agenda. Isn't that the way democracy is supposed to work?

I want the end of drug enforcement, access to healthcare, all that stuff you say. I'd vote for it in a minute. I'm just saying the voting trends don't point to more left wing policies. I also am not arguing with you about it. I just don't see what you say matching what's really happening.
I'm happy to discuss it. If you like to throw a few incendiaries into your posts, its fine with me.

 

[UncleBuck]

Democrats weren't promising to improve jobs and wages in their locale. Trump did. It's about jobs, economy, and "what have you done for me lately?" not liberal vs conservative.

that hurts, but is correct.

hillary was out there promising that we were gonna keep being open and inclusive. trump was out there saying 'other people' were stealing what is yours.

people took to that real well. many are starting to regret it, but biases overwhelm common sense often. for many, just the thought that mexicans and muslims are stealing their jobs is enough, no need for basis in reality.

 

[see4]

you know what they say
"simple things for simple minds"
glad to give your carer a bit of a break while you sit amused

pro tip: learn to spell the simplest of words, like "career", before trying to be witty.

 

[ginjawarrior]

pro tip: learn to spell the simplest of words, like "career", before trying to be witty.

pro tip: you should probably learn to read before you suggest for anyone else to learn how to spell.....

 

[SneekyNinja]

pro tip: you should probably learn to read before you suggest for anyone else to learn how to spell.....

Your jimmies certainly are rustled.

Did you watch the YouTube video provided since Google is too complicated for you?

 

[ttystikk]

i liked the first half of it until he went into his new "establishment bad, super uber progressives good" thing again.

i am much more with ttystikk here. the diagnosis of why america is not great in the first half of pada's post is spot on. minimum wage needs to go up, the prison population needs to go way down, wages and corporate profits need to go up in parity, home ownership should be more accessible, health care spending needs to go down, and accessibility to higher education and trades needs to go up. all of us libtards agree on these things.

tty agrees though that incremental change is worth fighting for. i think he sees the bigger picture better than pada does. until we can vote in anyone in 2018 with a D next to their name though, these issues are going to go into reverse. and the DCCC and DSCC are going to run whoever they can for the most part, without purity tests.

as a moderate liberal, i find incrementalism OK. more liberal liberals like pada and tty don't so much, but some accept it better than others.

all that said, i think pada will like brianna wu and ted lieu. he should look them up, if he's listening to us. they are hardcore, non-establisment liberals on the rise. i think all of us can rally behind future leaders like them.

My gripe with incrementalism is that it hasn't worked, sooo it's time to try something different.

 

[SneekyNinja]

My gripe with incrementalism is that it hasn't worked, sooo it's time to try something different.

The funny thing is it has, partially cos of Sanders...