How to calculate PPFD for my build?

[MeGaKiLlErMaN]

not to be a dick but im starting to wonder why we would take 1 vendors word on numbers from the products they sell (shitizen) lol.these cree numbers were ran by several well known members here many of whom had no ties to sales to cree.

Why trust anyone? Im just saying no one needs to lie, if they do then that can be found out but according to that the citizens are better. If you want to disregard this thats fine but ive seen zero issues with it from anyone. I like the cxb 3590 and at $36 its a good buy. But if citizen drops their top end one to match.... its who prefers what... For myself Im looking into the Cutter-COB275-35k as it has a much bigger LES and might provide even better LPW that a cree at 50W or so.

 

[Joe34]

just like you asked,most of us run these cobs at 50w or less,and at those currents citi as well as the 36v vero dont stack up better than cree,in fact based on the calcs in this thread citi rated poorly under 50w.the citi wheelhouse is over 75w if i recall from a few members calcs here.10 to 15% eff lose is huge imo,as to why i said you might as well run a cmh if 40% is the goal heat loads will be identical.

What your saying is wrong again.

Here is the actual stats from data sheets (the same type of datasheets you are using for your CREES)

Citizen CLU058-1825C4-50AL7K3 Gen 5 1000 mA @ 50.6Watts giving 184 Lumens per watt.(gen 6 is higher but figures not provided yet)
Vero 29 BXRC-35E10K0-C-xx Gen 7 760 mA @ 50Watts giving 194 Lumens per watt.

Both of the above are highly efficient.

I used your provided wattage of 50 as you said its what most people run them at.

Other chipmakers are efficient.

The fact is less people are using CREE these days, and some of the reasons are listed in this thread.

Also, in the comparison on page one of Citizen 1212 vs Cree CXB3950, thats comparing Citizens cheapest Chip vs Cree most expensive Chip, $11 vs $45.

For alot of people getting 10% better efficiency at a 400% cost increase is not worth it.

 

[sixstring2112]

What your saying is wrong again.

Here is the actual stats from data sheets (the same type of datasheets you are using for your CREES)

Citizen CLU058-1825C4-50AL7K3 Gen 5 1000 mA @ 50.6Watts giving 184 Lumens per watt.(gen 6 is higher but figures not provided yet)
Vero 29 BXRC-35E10K0-C-xx Gen 7 760 mA @ 50Watts giving 194 Lumens per watt.

Both of the above are highly efficient.

I used your provided wattage of 50 as you said its what most people run them at.

Other chipmakers are efficient.

The fact is less people are using CREE these days, and some of the reasons are listed in this thread.

Also, in the comparison on page one of Citizen 1212 vs Cree CXB3950, thats comparing Citizens cheapest Chip vs Cree most expensive Chip, $11 vs $45.

For alot of people getting 10% better efficiency at a 400% cost increase is not worth it.

Nobody uses the citi chip you just used as the comparison lol.and cree is down to 31.00 per if you buy 10 and 35 for 5 of them
Now in 1 thread i see you dont know how to tell the difference between the 3 vero chips from data sheets but you want to skool me on efficiency lol.do you know what 10% efficiency does over a 12 hour cycle for 60 days of flowering?how long will it take to bridge the gap of the 25.oo difference in chips ? I know 10% might not sound like much to a beginner but for alot of us we switched to cobs for efficient lighting.so now i wonder will you go with a cheaper driver?why use a high priced meanwell driver that runs 94% @ 240v when you could get a cheaper driver that only runs 82 to 85%,fuck it they are cheaper lets all use them.

 

[verticalgrow]

@visajoe1 @MeGaKiLlErMaN have u guyz run the numbers for 1818?
Robin said they are better then 1212 & on special for $15 including holder for the 1818's @ northerngrowlights.com

 

[Joe34]

@sixstring2112 Dont make me laugh, It was you who chose to compare Citi 1212 to CXB3950 from the outset. Thats comparing apples with banannas.

People do use the 1825 Citi chip.

The reason CREE may have came down(I still havnt seen them at $31 like u say you have) in some shops from $45 is because they are being beaten by the other brands and cant overcharge anymore. that in itself says it all.

People are using the Cree 3070, thats more comparable to the Citi 1212.

I noticed your always promoting CREE and defaming any other brand. did you order 1000 pieces and get lumbered with them?
Rofl

And yes I didnt notice in the vero datasheet the volt differences in the chip, and thats because in some datasheets they dont actually specify it.

 

[VegasWinner]

just like you asked,most of us run these cobs at 50w or less,and at those currents citi as well as the 36v vero dont stack up better than cree,in fact based on the calcs in this thread citi rated poorly under 50w.the citi wheelhouse is over 75w if i recall from a few members calcs here.10 to 15% eff lose is huge imo,as to why i said you might as well run a cmh if 40% is the goal heat loads will be identical.

For some folks facts are difficult to process. Supra stated this more than two years ago proved it and people are still not there yet

 

[sixstring2112]

@sixstring2112 Dont make me laugh, It was you who chose to compare Citi 1212 to CXB3950 from the outset. Thats comparing apples with banannas.

People do use the 1825 Citi chip.

The reason CREE may have came down(I still havnt seen them at $31 like u say you have) in some shops from $45 is because they are being beaten by the other brands and cant overcharge anymore. that in itself says it all.

People are using the Cree 3070, thats more comparable to the Citi 1212.

I noticed your always promoting CREE and defaming any other brand. did you order 1000 pieces and get lumbered with them?
Rofl

And yes I didnt notice in the vero datasheet the volt differences in the chip, and thats because in some datasheets they dont actually specify it.

no stockpile of cree here,they are all hung up and growing.i did just get a quote for 100 cree @ 29.00 per.i would love to see citi make a chip that does what cree does @ 36v so we can use our current drivers to run them.im not interested in buying twice as many drivers to run a 50v chip or wire parallel because its easy even though the vendors tell us to use series for safety.i also dont see any citi grows that pop off the page and make me say wow,i want that setup.i wish there was more stats and evidence to change my mind.im also running veros now and i have a decent pile of them yet to install,cant beat the price vs EFFICIENCY(key word) for me and a few others. i just think you missed the whole point i was making which was that glaring 10-12% eff. its alot. i mean why do you think people flocked to gavita? it was not the prices,it was a more eff lamp over traditional single ended hps.cmh/lec from a few companies i think beat these citi numbers i seen back on the last page and their spectrum is better so now what ?

 

[Joe34]

I didnt miss the point, I got it, the point I made is that some people don't want 400% cost increase for 10% efficiency gain.
If you live in a location with super cheap electricity, that 10% efficiency isnt worth the cost.

It doesnt make Citizen's or Vero's shit like your always shouting.

As you have said in your post, your reasoning is biased towards you having a shitload of drivers that you want to keep using.

For people starting from scratch those factors don't count.

 

[sixstring2112]

wait a sec,veros are just veros but citizens are shitizens.gotta get that straight for the record,im fine with veros lmao.its not 400% and even if it was,its a 1 time cost.efficiency is forever haha.im done here,but heres a better option for full spectrum growing in the 40-45% eff range if thats your gig.https://www.growersc.com/gc630

 

[nevergoodenuf]

@sixstring2112 I have talked to engineers at Bridgelux about running in parallel and safety isn't the issue they worry about. They don't recommend parallel because they can't be sure you will get equal light output between COBs. As long as we are still designing lights to Supras standards. Excessive cooling to maintain 70*c or less Tc and running at nominal or less. I have ran every combo of parallel/series, series, and parallel without any problems. I personally don't care if one COB is a watt or 2 brighter than the others. When I get a chance I will also get Citizens opinion.

 

[Jimmyclone42]

Crees are old tech, as someone stated above, a test was done 2 years ago between cree and citi's.. The problem is citizen and vero have moved forward... Im not bashing cree at all, great stuff, just out dated.. Im sure when they finally put out a new cob it will be fantastic... But until then citizen and veros are much better options for your money... Unless u actually believe that you will keep those chips for 5 years.. I personally will upgrade in probably a year yo the next new chip... To each there own.. Were all cob people here.. Everyone should be directing there anger towards blurple panels, and teaching their owners on the power of white lights..
Cheers, happy growing

 

[MeGaKiLlErMaN]

Crees are old tech, as someone stated above, a test was done 2 years ago between cree and citi's.. The problem is citizen and vero have moved forward... Im not bashing cree at all, great stuff, just out dated.. Im sure when they finally put out a new cob it will be fantastic... But until then citizen and veros are much better options for your money... Unless u actually believe that you will keep those chips for 5 years.. I personally will upgrade in probably a year yo the next new chip... To each there own.. Were all cob people here.. Everyone should be directing there anger towards blurple panels, and teaching their owners on the power of white lights..
Cheers, happy growing

Mine will be good for 10 years before they start to degrade... Just something to be aware of they can last 100,000 hours that's a lot of 12/12

 

[nevergoodenuf]

When newer/better stuff comes out, bridge (parallel) 2 older fixtures together. Now you have a spare driver for the next build.

 

[Pulpit_]

Mine will be good for 10 years before they start to degrade... Just something to be aware of they can last 100,000 hours that's a lot of 12/12

No kidding, 70 day flower period at 12 hours = 840 hours x 5 cycles a year. they should last 23 years ! sweet

 

[Jimmyclone42]

No kidding, 70 day flower period at 12 hours = 840 hours x 5 cycles a year. they should last 23 years ! sweet

Im not saying the panel wont last, im saying there will be something better coming down the pipe.. Theres always new tech coming out and as everyone knows this diy shit is as addictive as crack.. Even though my panel will last, my intrest in new tech will push me to upgrade chips in a year or 2 when theres more efficient, better spectrum chips...

 

[visajoe1]

@visajoe1 @MeGaKiLlErMaN have u guyz run the numbers for 1818?
Robin said they are better then 1212 & on special for $15 including holder for the 1818's @ northerngrowlights.com

That is a great deal for 1818's, probably gen 5 tho. Unfortunately, they just arent efficient chips and your driver selection is limited because its a 50v chip.

Here is some 1818 data, 50w/sq ft

1818 3500K90Min 50 COBS @1000 mA ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
50 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @15 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 2639.41
Cobs power watts: 2481.04
Total voltage forward: 2481.04
Total lumens: 308246.39
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 828.12
Total PPF: 4425.87
PPFD based on canopy area: 952.79
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 16.56
Cob efficiency: 37.09%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 49.62
Voltage forward per cob: 49.62
Lumens per watt: 124.24
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 1563.06
umol/s/W: 1.78 LER: 335.00 QER: 4.81
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 1858 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 619 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $1.39
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $142.53
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $213.79
Cost per cob: $23.0
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $1150.0
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $1226.28
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $408.54

 

[sixstring2112]

That is a great deal for 1818's, probably gen 5 tho. Unfortunately, they just arent efficient chips and your driver selection is limited because its a 50v chip.

Here is some 1818 data, 50w/sq ft

1818 3500K90Min 50 COBS @1000 mA ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
50 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @15 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 2639.41
Cobs power watts: 2481.04
Total voltage forward: 2481.04
Total lumens: 308246.39
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 828.12
Total PPF: 4425.87
PPFD based on canopy area: 952.79
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 16.56
Cob efficiency: 37.09%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 49.62
Voltage forward per cob: 49.62
Lumens per watt: 124.24
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 1563.06
umol/s/W: 1.78 LER: 335.00 QER: 4.81
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 1858 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 619 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $1.39
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $142.53
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $213.79
Cost per cob: $23.0
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $1150.0
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $1226.28
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $408.54

this is why i said these citi are better in the high wattage applications,not down around 50w

from above post^^^^..... Cob efficiency: 37.09%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 49.62
Voltage forward per cob: 49.62
Lumens per watt: 124.24
am i missing something? those are terrible at 50w
would be better off with 3 x 315w cmh about the same price and you could just upgrade every year as tech gets better right ?

 

[Big smo]

Kinda funny when someone talking shit doesnt even understand the basics. Check the voltage on hlg185-1400 and voltage on a hlg185-1050. They both put out 200w. The 1400 powers 4 36v cobs to 200w and the 1050 powers 4 50v cobs to 200w.

 

[CobKits]

That is a great deal for 1818's, probably gen 5 tho. Unfortunately, they just arent efficient chips and your driver selection is limited because its a 50v chip.

1818s are great chips... and theres plenty of driver options. great deal by robin there

 

[visajoe1]

this is why i said these citi are better in the high wattage applications,not down around 50w

from above post^^^^..... Cob efficiency: 37.09%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 49.62
Voltage forward per cob: 49.62
Lumens per watt: 124.24
am i missing something? those are terrible at 50w
would be better off with 3 x 315w cmh about the same price and you could just upgrade every year as tech gets better right ?

Ya, I thought the 1818's were supposed to operate better at higher loads too, but it doesnt seem to be the case? I guess thats why mine are sitting in a drawer instead of being lit up. They need to run at 400mah to reach 40% efficiency

1818 3500K90Min 50 COBS @2500 mA ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
50 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @15 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 7177.25
Cobs power watts: 6746.61
Total voltage forward: 2698.64
Total lumens: 711622.37
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 1911.82
Total PPF: 10217.62
PPFD based on canopy area: 2199.63
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 38.24
Cob efficiency: 31.49%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 134.93
Voltage forward per cob: 53.97
Lumens per watt: 105.48
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 4655.16
umol/s/W: 1.51 LER: 335.00 QER: 4.81
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 5534 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 1845 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $0.60
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $387.57
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $581.36
Cost per cob: $23.0
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $1150.0
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $3652.44
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $1217.70



1818 3500K90Min 2 COBS @400 mA ON 1.813 PROFILE HEATSINK
2 SQ.FT. CANOPY 94% EFFICIENT DRIVER @15 CENTS PER KWH
Total power watts at the wall: 40.46
Cobs power watts: 38.03
Total voltage forward: 95.08
Total lumens: 5115.89
Total PAR watts assuming 10% loss: 13.74
Total PPF: 73.45
PPFD based on canopy area: 395.33
PAR watts per sq.ft.: 6.87
Cob efficiency: 40.15%
Power watts per sq.ft.: 19.02
Voltage forward per cob: 47.54
Lumens per watt: 134.51
Heatsink riser thickness / number of fins / fin's length: 0.3in/6/0.95in
Heatsink area per inch: 100.94 cm^2
Total heat watts: 22.82
umol/s/W: 1.93 LER: 335.00 QER: 4.81
Heatsink length passive cooling @120cm^2/heatwatt: 27 inches
Heatsink length active cooling @40cm^2/heatwatt: 9 inches
COB cost dollar per PAR watt: $3.35
Electric cost @12/12 in 30 days: $2.18
Electric cost @18/6 in 30 days: $3.28
Cost per cob: $23.0
Heatsink cost per inch cut: $0.66
Total cobs cost: $46.0
Total heatsink passive cooling cost: $17.82
Total heatsink active cooling cost: $5.94