veg+bloom constant mag deficiency

[im4satori]

6 grams per gallon is way to much for a hydroset up

and your adding more cal mag.... ? that's a ton of calcium
the base nutes already have crazy high 10% calcium ..why are you adding more?

it is true DWC likes extra calcium but not that much extra

it would work for soil provided your watering plain water every other

the calcium in the nutes is extremely high...its obvious this is affecting your magnesium uptake

 

[a mongo frog]

I run it at about the 1000ppm and dont have this issue. I run ebb and grow buckets. Res change once at Week 2 flower so I can add the bloom booster and then top off with v+b and just top off weekly until flush

Have you used this plant food in a peat soil/soilless? Im real interested in this plant food. Do you ever have to add any cal mag?

 

[im4satori]

Have you used this plant food in a peat soil/soilless? Im real interested in this plant food. Do you ever have to add any cal mag?

im amazed that you guys want to add more calcium lol

but I do love your doggy pic

 

[a mongo frog]

im amazed that you guys want to add more calcium lol

but I do love your doggy pic

I don't want to add extra anything. I just want to know a little bit about the said plant food. Maybe with some pics would be cool.

 

[im4satori]

if you dont want to take my word/experience for it how about a book

copied and pasted form book;

hydroponics a practical guide, by J Benton jones jr




Excess Symptoms


Calcium excess is not a common occurrence, although a high Ca concentration

in the plant may affect the relationship between the major cations K and Mg.

Calcium excess may induce either a K or Mg deficiency, the latter most likely

being Mg deficiency.





Deficiency Symptoms


Magnesium deficiency symptoms are quite distinct as an interveinal chlorosis

that appears first on the older leaves. Once a Mg deficiency occurs, it is very

difficult to correct, particularly if the deficiency occurs during the mid-point

of the growing season. In those plant species that have a high Mg requirement,

the deficiency may be triggered by various types of environmental and

physiological stress. Deficiency can result from an imbalance between K+ and

Mg2+, Ca2+ and Mg2+, or NH4

+ and Mg2+ cations. Of these cations, Mg2+ is the

least competitive for root absorption. The Ca2+ and Mn2+ cations show a

competitive effect on Mg2+ uptake and increased Ca2+ uptake ensures a


concentration of divalent ion capacity sufficient to maintain cation/anion

balance and proper functioning of physiological activity. When Mg is deficient,

the increased uptake of Mn2+ prevents total failure of the biochemical processes


of energy transfer, forestalling the collapse and death of plant cells.

The uptake of Mg shows a number of interactive effects, both synergistic

and antagonistic. An interesting side effect of Mg deficiency is a possible

increase in susceptibility to fungus disease infestation as well as the incidence

of blossom-end-rot (BER) of fruit.

Excess

 

[a mongo frog]

if you dont want to take my word/experience for it how about a book

copied and pasted form book;

hydroponics a practical guide, by J Benton jones jr




Excess Symptoms


Calcium excess is not a common occurrence, although a high Ca concentration

in the plant may affect the relationship between the major cations K and Mg.

Calcium excess may induce either a K or Mg deficiency, the latter most likely

being Mg deficiency.





Deficiency Symptoms


Magnesium deficiency symptoms are quite distinct as an interveinal chlorosis

that appears first on the older leaves. Once a Mg deficiency occurs, it is very

difficult to correct, particularly if the deficiency occurs during the mid-point

of the growing season. In those plant species that have a high Mg requirement,

the deficiency may be triggered by various types of environmental and

physiological stress. Deficiency can result from an imbalance between K+ and

Mg2+, Ca2+ and Mg2+, or NH4

+ and Mg2+ cations. Of these cations, Mg2+ is the

least competitive for root absorption. The Ca2+ and Mn2+ cations show a

competitive effect on Mg2+ uptake and increased Ca2+ uptake ensures a


concentration of divalent ion capacity sufficient to maintain cation/anion

balance and proper functioning of physiological activity. When Mg is deficient,

the increased uptake of Mn2+ prevents total failure of the biochemical processes


of energy transfer, forestalling the collapse and death of plant cells.

The uptake of Mg shows a number of interactive effects, both synergistic

and antagonistic. An interesting side effect of Mg deficiency is a possible

increase in susceptibility to fungus disease infestation as well as the incidence

of blossom-end-rot (BER) of fruit.

Excess

Bro I'm pretty sure the ones adding cal mag (myself included) are doing it for the Mg benefit. Cal mag is just so easily to get. And I totally believe what your talking about. Ive also been adding epsom salt to some mother plants, and love garding with epsom.

 

[ThaMagnificent]

Have you used this plant food in a peat soil/soilless? Im real interested in this plant food. Do you ever have to add any cal mag?

Hydroton

Nothing but v+b it's an all in one. Don't even pH anymore. Just dump and measure ppm. They say 3-5 g/gal but it's like why not just dump and measure ppm? Only extras I use is hydroguard and mammoth p


Gonna try rockwool next

 

[im4satori]

Bro I'm pretty sure the ones adding cal mag (myself included) are doing it for the Mg benefit. Cal mag is just so easily to get. And I totally believe what your talking about. Ive also been adding epsom salt to some mother plants, and love harding with epsom.

omg

I understand why there adding calmag... yes its to get magnesium
calmag has more calcium than magnesium

so your adding more calcium than anything else

if you want magnesium without the calcium then use Epsom salt since it has magnesium sulfate and no calcium

 

[im4satori]

if your looking for a well balance 1 part nutrient I would recommend the GH floragrow and flora nova

here is the flora grow with the addition of calmag (used for calcium) and Epsom salt (used for magnesium)



full strength grow formula

flora grow 6mls per gallon
calmag 0.75mls per gallon
Epsom salt 0.4 grams per gallon

 

[im4satori]

full strength bloom nutes don't require addional Epsom or clamag

just
7.5mls floranova per gallon
nothing else

this is very high in P but itll work

for that reason I would feed veg nutes thru week 2 of 12/12

 

[im4satori]

notice how each formula has magnesium half the calcium

K:Ca:Mg

3:2:1 ratios (roughly)

 

[im4satori]

personally I would feed something like this for the first 3 or 4 weeks of bloom before switching to the high P

its a hybrid of the two combined

 

[polishpollack]

im4satori, you're really added a lot to this thread. unfortunately, since very little info was put up by the OP, no one can tell if it's a calcium, magnesium, or what kind of problem? No one knows. We need pics. I don't know how you became conviced that cal or mag is the issue, but I suspect that since we don't know what the real problem is, you might be focusing in the wrong area. I suspect the problem is the method. the OP says that a dwc plant is fine and the rest have a problem. if the dwc is fine, then I'd say there's nothing wrong with the nutrients, cal, mag, or otherwise. but we need to see good pics in white light to see what the issue really is. turning this into a huge calmag discussion might not be helpful. kudos to you for your knowledge, but since we don't really know what the problem is, I don't see your knowledge as being helpful right now.
btw, in your text from a book, the word MAY is being used. This shouldn't be viewed as an idea set in stone. If the writer uses may or perhaps or maybe, it's hard to take what they say as being absolute. Besides, the grower says they're using a one-part fert and it's probably made to be optimized nutrition in relation to it's NPK levels. I don't know if trying to tweak cal or mag in a one-part fert is a good idea, unless you're certain that your plants are showing cal or mag deficiency. The OP says they're developing a deficiency but what if their assessment is wrong? You've put up a lot of info to address a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[im4satori]

im4satori, you're really added a lot to this thread. unfortunately, since very little info was put up by the OP, no one can tell if it's a calcium, magnesium, or what kind of problem? No one knows. We need pics. I don't know how you became conviced that cal or mag is the issue, but I suspect that since we don't know what the real problem is, you might be focusing in the wrong area. I suspect the problem is the method. the OP says that a dwc plant is fine and the rest have a problem. if the dwc is fine, then I'd say there's nothing wrong with the nutrients, cal, mag, or otherwise. but we need to see good pics in white light to see what the issue really is. turning this into a huge calmag discussion might not be helpful. kudos to you for your knowledge, but since we don't really know what the problem is, I don't see your knowledge as being helpful right now.
btw, in your text from a book, the word MAY is being used. This shouldn't be viewed as an idea set in stone. If the writer uses may or perhaps or maybe, it's hard to take what they say as being absolute. Besides, the grower says they're using a one-part fert and it's probably made to be optimized nutrition in relation to it's NPK levels. I don't know if trying to tweak cal or mag in a one-part fert is a good idea, unless you're certain that your plants are showing cal or mag deficiency. The OP says they're developing a deficiency but what if their assessment is wrong? You've put up a lot of info to address a problem that doesn't exist.

dwc prefers a higher calcium ratio.. that's why hes not seeing that issue there..but id still say hes over feeding the calcium there also but not enough to show

im sure of what his issue is because I can see how much of each active element that's being fed
therefore I know his calcium is too high which is the obvious reason hed be chasing magnesium def..

idont need a picture to see what magnesium def looks like

 

[d1stort]

in short....
even the formula I gave you at 4mls and 1gram of Epsom is seriously flawed still having too much calci

it impossible to raise it to get the nitrogen up without cranking the calcium up so high it locks out the magnesium

you should switch your brand of nutes

what your using would be good for and is likely tailored toward tomatoes since they are calcium hogs but pot not so much!

mj is a magnesium hog[/QUOTE

6 grams per gallon is way to much for a hydroset up

and your adding more cal mag.... ? that's a ton of calcium
the base nutes already have crazy high 10% calcium ..why are you adding more?

it is true DWC likes extra calcium but not that much extra

it would work for soil provided your watering plain water every other

the calcium in the nutes is extremely high...its obvious this is affecting your magnesium uptake

I don't personally want to add anything, I let the plants tell me what they need and add accordingly. I've never used any chart like the ones you've been posting, maybe you should do a little more research? I can off the top of my head point you towards the Marijuana Mania video as a reference point, I believe they're actually feeding stronger maybe 7-8 G's per gallon of the DOS formula. Veg/Bloom also recommends 5 G's per gallon right on the website, soI'm not sure why you're so appalled by my 6g's per gallon. I actually don't have any mag defences either, a few of my purple strains tend to have the top growth "taco leave" and when I see that I hit it with the mag plus, problem is corrected before it becomes a deficiency. I'm in roots 707 soil, 5 and 7 gallon smart pots depending on strain and flower time and all is well in my garden without the above complicated feed charts or trying to tell the plant what it needs instead of the other way around. I guess we've all got our own way of doing things, good luck with yours

 

[im4satori]

lmao
yes I have posted many times in this thread
because im blown away at all the bad advise this guys been given

6mls per gallon yields 159ppm of calcium... which is higher than the damn nitrogen..clearly too much
and an EC 1.5 (which is fine for soil but high for hydro)
then youd advise him to add calmag only making his issue worse by adding more calcium

8mls is silly



im going to let it go

 

[d1stort]

lmao
yes I have posted many times in this thread
because im blown away at all the bad advise this guys been given

6mls per gallon yields 159ppm of calcium... which is higher than the damn nitrogen..clearly too much
and an EC 1.5 (which is fine for soil but high for hydro)
then youd advise him to add calmag only making his issue worse by adding more calcium

8mls is silly



im going to let it go

Don't post that you're going to let it go, and then not let it go... now that's just silly. I saw you come back and re-edit lmao. Set your ego aside for a second and realize that there's a million ways to grow a thousand different strains in hundreds of different environments, and that what works for you might not work for someone else and vice versa.
I didn't advise he add cal mag, I simply explained how I feed VegBloom without deficiencies. I suggested using Mag Plus for Mg problems since it is strictly magnesium sulfate aka epsom salts in cconcentrated form. I wouldnt suggest CalMag for an Mg problem since its most Cal and Nitrogen, as you pointed out, with a small portion of magnesium which is where most people's problem lies. If you're using RO water like I am, you're removing the Cal and Mag naturally in the water so you will always have to supplement that back in regardless of your product line. I've yet to find a product line that I didn't have to supplement at least a little CalMag at some point, but VegBlooms price and ease of use keeps me coming back.

 

[im4satori]

ok im silly because i said I would leave it and now im notwe agree on that

ummm
id say it has to do with your ego, not mine

shown by your need to dog on my calculator which might be the best tool a hydro gardener could possibly have
whats wrong you intimidated because you don't understand it

and your defense of your using a nutrient line that is ridiculously high in calcium which works against you and youd rather argue that you don't have def as if that makes it a good ratio

so basically you don't want to admit that theres a better way than what your doing

the fact is a portion of your EC is useless and in excess and has the potential to lock out other nutes..like magnesium
and increase your precipitates
so your response is to add more magnesium only again rasing your EC, with unnecessary EC rise from the added sulfur and the high amount of magnesium it requires to offset the calcium

so now your flushing your plants every week to get the excess salt out of the medium...or your not and your medium is super salty

all that work and yes you might have good looking grows

but had you simply lowered your calcium you wouldn't be adding nutes at EC 1.8


thanks for pointing out to me how an RO works but its really irrelevant if you use RO water or city water or well water active elemental ppm is just that,
theres either enough there or there isn't regardless of your water source and whats may or may not be in it

I run my EC 1.0 to 1.2max
my run off stays fractionally lower from start to finish
I never need to flush and my medium never gets salt build up


if I jacked up my calcium and then jacked up my magnesium and as a resut sulfur will go way up from all tha magnesium sulfate
then since im now using more calcium nitrate to get the calcium so high I now have to use less potassium nitrate or the N would be too high
so I have to use more potassium sulfate which again adds more sulfur

the elements come in pairs... you cant add magnesium without also adding sulfur or nitrogen using either magnesium SULFATE or magnesium NITRATE.

jack up your calcium now your magnesium is restricted, jack up the magnesium so your plants no longer show magnesium def but now you've added all that sulfur
o gee high sulfur, high calcium

what things cause salt un-leachable precipitates in the medium, do you know?
calcium, sulfur, and phosphorus

for that reason alone one should try and avoid excesss of any of the 3 ... this is the exact reason advanced nutes and many others began suggesting a lower P during bloom (aka the phosphorus myth)

it is also the exact reason almost every liquid nute company out there is lacking in calcium and magnesium in the basic line up.... because they know it depend on your source water....
for example if your source water is hard and has calcium already then they understand you don't need the added calcium in your nutes profile
but on the other hand if you have soft water and little to no calcium in the source water (or using RO) then you would need the extra calcium and this is why they choose to separate it into its own bottle to be dose according to your needs based on the source water

yes every environment and every plant strain may have different needs but those differences in most cases are marginal and not extreme like in the case of your 10% calcium

I might need 70ppm calcium for my plants to be happy... you might need 80ppm an that's likely from the source water or maybe strain or enviroment

but to say my set up needs 70ppm and yours needs 150ppm is crazy

 

[HeatlessBBQ]

hey everyone hop on over to the hallucinatory section.
We are throwing a party

 

[im4satori]

quoting d1stort
"trying to tell the plant what it needs instead of the other way around"


do you believe your plants need all that calcium?
if no... then why would you want it?

ahhh I get it... you don't really know how much calcium your plants need or don't need, because you really don't even know how much calcium is in the products that your using
because without knowing how to use the damn calculator you've dogged you cant figure out what 10% calcium actually means... you just toss it inn the barrel per the direction or someone elses and hope you have all it needs

i could be making an assumption here but,
when you say
you hit them with some mag plus
are you foliar feeding it? so your foliar feeding on a regular basis to offset a magnesium def...
and you don't think maybe you shouldn't have too???

ii guess you might have to in order to get past all that calcium in the root zone lol

another thing... if you understand that mag plus is just Epsom salt... why are you buying the mag plus and not just using Epsom salt?