Growing With Organics! soil recipe

[Big_boy_tay_tay]

Hey RIU family, after much deliberation and research i have decided i want to go the way of organics. So after looking all over the organics forums and having started reading "Teaming with Microbes" i just wanted to post what i have in mind, that i want to add to my first ever organic grow.

Here is my list of what amendments,aeration, and base soils i would like to use. I have not looked into the brands quite yet ( in due time ) but i am in no rush, seeing as this is not only my first organic grow but my first indoor grow as well, and have lots of prep to do before i start buying equipment.

I will be making 7 cubic feet of soil (40 us gal) and growing in 5 gal fabric pots (6 plants total)

Base-
FFOF soil 1/3 of mix
From home EWC 1/3 of mix
Humus GOAF 1/3 of mix, but I'm not sure if i can find this locally if not i won't be using ( online is to expensive ) unless someone knows a cheap online source.

Aeration-
Rice Hauls about 20% of soil mix
Lava Rocks about 20% again

Total aeration in soil about 40-50%

Amendments- Still need some guidance on this part. I have seen so many threads on how much to add and seeing as this is totally new soil i think i will add in at a rate of 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil.
Kelp meal 1/2 cup
Neem Cake 1/2 cup
Fish meal 1/2 cup
Crab Shell meal 1/2 cup
Bat Guano 1/2 cup
Azomite 1/2 cup
Alfalfa meal this one i hear can burn the plants would it be smart to go in light at 1/4 cup or because its virgin soil go in at 1/2 cup (please let me know).
Oyster Shell flour OR Dolomite Lime I hear they both regulate the PH of the soil, BUT does one give more benefits than the other?
Humic Acid? ( just let me know period lol, don't know much of anything about this one).
last but not least " Great White mycorrhizae " is it really worth it?

I will let this mix cook for no less than a month and a half to two months ( try to let it cook a lot longer just depends ). Once i have every thing cooked and the soil is in the pots with the plants i will add about 25-50 red wigglers ( about a handful ) to the 5gal pots.

If there is ANYTHING els that is essential please please let me know, or if i have anything off/not needed or doubled just WHAT EVER the case it is, feel free to let me know!

Thanks for taking the time to stop by and read my post RIU fam.
As Always stay frosty all!

 

[Rasta Roy]

Leave the guano out of mix homie, it is way too water soluble. It is nice to have on hands to make teas if your plants need a boost.

Kelp, neem cake, fish meal, and crab shell meal our great for mixing in. I would save the alfalfa to make steeped teas to water with in veg.

I prefer oyster shell flour over lime, because I like to have control over magnesium levels. But...it seems to be a personal preference...growers have had great results using both. Whatever is easiest for you to get is probably best.

Humic acid isn't really needed if you got good compost and castings.

Same goes for mycos, if you use them, apply directly to the root zone at transplant.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Leave the guano out of mix homie, it is way too water soluble. It is nice to have on hands to make teas if your plants need a boost.

Kelp, neem cake, fish meal, and crab shell meal our great for mixing in. I would save the alfalfa to make steeped teas to water with in veg.

I prefer oyster shell flour over lime, because I like to have control over magnesium levels. But...it seems to be a personal preference...growers have had great results using both. Whatever is easiest for you to get is probably best.

Humic acid isn't really needed if you got good compost and castings.

Same goes for mycos, if you use them, apply directly to the root zone at transplant.

good advice my man, as always.

I will be making 7 cubic feet of soil (40 us gal) and growing in 5 gal fabric pots (6 plants total)

Base-
FFOF soil 1/3 of mix
From home EWC 1/3 of mix
Humus GOAF 1/3 of mix, but I'm not sure if i can find this locally if not i won't be using ( online is to expensive ) unless someone knows a cheap online source.

Aeration-
Rice Hauls about 20% of soil mix
Lava Rocks about 20% again

Total aeration in soil about 40-50%

Amendments- Still need some guidance on this part. I have seen so many threads on how much to add and seeing as this is totally new soil i think i will add in at a rate of 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil.
Kelp meal 1/2 cup
Neem Cake 1/2 cup
Fish meal 1/2 cup
Crab Shell meal 1/2 cup
Bat Guano 1/2 cup
Azomite 1/2 cup
Alfalfa meal this one i hear can burn the plants would it be smart to go in light at 1/4 cup or because its virgin soil go in at 1/2 cup (please let me know).
Oyster Shell flour OR Dolomite Lime I hear they both regulate the PH of the soil, BUT does one give more benefits than the other?
Humic Acid? ( just let me know period lol, don't know much of anything about this one).
last but not least " Great White mycorrhizae " is it really worth it?

I will let this mix cook for no less than a month and a half to two months ( try to let it cook a lot longer just depends ). Once i have every thing cooked and the soil is in the pots with the plants i will add about 25-50 red wigglers ( about a handful ) to the 5gal pots.

If there is ANYTHING els that is essential please please let me know, or if i have anything off/not needed or doubled just WHAT EVER the case it is, feel free to let me know!

Thanks for taking the time to stop by and read my post RIU fam.
As Always stay frosty all!

i'd have a couple concerns with the rates my friend
remember FFOF is not only pre-limed (i wouldn't add any much additional buffers, you don't have tons of peat in this mix, the castings are AWESOME at regulating ph), but the ffof is also amended, you are using amendment rates for "empty" mixes, so you may run into possible toxicity issues.
what i would do personally, is most people like to either let their soil age, or "rest" after harvesting, so typically most growers need two "sets" of soil
i would make enough soil for two runs, having one pile you can age/compost/cycle a lil longer, and the other using the ffof almost as-is.
just saying amending FFOF may run into some challenges
and don't be afraid of alfalfa meal, i have used a LOT and I've never seen any burn issues, if anything the fish meal and bat guano would be far more likely to do that.
also if you have good fresh EWC, you'll have a modest but readily available amount of even macros there as well.
what i would highly recommend is mixing up your castings ahead of time with the soil, DON"T screen out your worms/cocoons, and let your worms help age and cycle your soil
oh, and whats GOAF humus?
with a third of your mix being castings you'll have all the acids/humus you'll need

If you are going to re-use your soil i'd steer away from azomite, and lean towards basalt, granite, etc for minerals

It's pouring at my shop, so if you have any other questions i'm happy to help
i got allllll the time in the world today...

 

[greasemonkeymann]

oh,m and don't get great white, wrong types of myco, low counts, and is WAY overpriced
use this one instead. Cheaper and more effective. Great white is ridiculously priced.

http://www.xtreme-gardening.com/mykos

mist roots at transplant, and sprinkle generously directly on the roots
myco should always be used, the myco has a HUGE part in phosphorus uptake and usage

 

[shadow_moose]

oh,m and don't get great white, wrong types of myco, low counts, and is WAY overpriced
use this one instead. Cheaper and more effective. Great white is ridiculously priced.

http://www.xtreme-gardening.com/mykos

mist roots at transplant, and sprinkle generously directly on the roots
myco should always be used, the myco has a HUGE part in phosphorus uptake and usage

I hear this stuff about myco a lot, and I don't really see a need to buy a pre-packaged product. You can get the same results with the KNF method for IMO extraction, right? Or is there something about these packaged products that I'm missing with my home brewed concoction?

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I hear this stuff about myco a lot, and I don't really see a need to buy a pre-packaged product. You can get the same results with the KNF method for IMO extraction, right? Or is there something about these packaged products that I'm missing with my home brewed concoction?

i hear ya man, I am also a subscriber of "free is better" too
but sadlyi don't think there's a way to breed myco on our own, reason is it needs roots to propagate, and also myco is quickly consumed
but I don't know everything regarding it, but I don't think you can propagate it on your own
that being said, makes me wonder how THEY do it..
breeding indigenous microbes isn't difficult though, but thats way different than the mychorrizhae

KNF is reaaal good shit, essentially mimicking the environment
BUT myco is crucial man, it's responsible for the majority of phosphorus uptake and usage

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I hear this stuff about myco a lot, and I don't really see a need to buy a pre-packaged product. You can get the same results with the KNF method for IMO extraction, right? Or is there something about these packaged products that I'm missing with my home brewed concoction?

heres a good read regarding it, and much more
worth reading

http://www.the-compost-gardener.com/phosphorus-fertilizer.html

 

[shadow_moose]

i hear ya man, I am also a subscriber of "free is better" too
but sadlyi don't think there's a way to breed myco on our own, reason is it needs roots to propagate, and also myco is quickly consumed
but I don't know everything regarding it, but I don't think you can propagate it on your own
that being said, makes me wonder how THEY do it..
breeding indigenous microbes isn't difficult though, but thats way different than the mychorrizhae

KNF is reaaal good shit, essentially mimicking the environment
BUT myco is crucial man, it's responsible for the majority of phosphorus uptake and usage

That's something I didn't know, I'm gonna have to do more research into this. I'm real big into "free is better" so if I find a way to breed these little buggers I will certainly share.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

That's something I didn't know, I'm gonna have to do more research into this. I'm real big into "free is better" so if I find a way to breed these little buggers I will certainly share.

oh me too man, me too!
the ONLY things I buy are neem meal, silica (protekt), and myco
past that it's all re-used
every now and then I reamend with kelp and alfalfa
but I grow my own comfrey (bad ass, organic calmag with a great bioavailable amount of even macros and micros)
and I make a leaf compost, with grass clippings and alfalfa, and that has all the stuff I need
and the results are better than any technique I've ever used or seen

 

[shadow_moose]

oh me too man, me too!
the ONLY things I buy are neem meal, silica (protekt), and myco
past that it's all re-used
every now and then I reamend with kelp and alfalfa
but I grow my own comfrey (bad ass, organic calmag with a great bioavailable amount of even macros and micros)
and I make a leaf compost, with grass clippings and alfalfa, and that has all the stuff I need
and the results are better than any technique I've ever used or seen

I'm sure at a base level, a nice living soil, no matter what it's really made of, is going to have great results. Everyone has their own technique that works well for whatever reason and that's what makes organic growing so magic, there's very little that's black and white about it.

Also, I just looked up comfrey and was pleasantly surprised to realize this stuff grows crazy out in my front yard already. Talk about free and easy!

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I'm sure at a base level, a nice living soil, no matter what it's really made of, is going to have great results. Everyone has their own technique that works well for whatever reason and that's what makes organic growing so magic, there's very little that's black and white about it.

Also, I just looked up comfrey and was pleasantly surprised to realize this stuff grows crazy out in my front yard already. Talk about free and easy!

oh man!
comfrey is a MUST HAVE for me
i'd bet my baby-makers you could easily do a grow with nothing more than comfrey and compost
and that'd shit on 99% of the stuff people are growing with their expen$ive nutrient "lineups"
fact I've been thinkin of doing a grow using just comfrey, nettles, and compost
and talk about EASY to grow..
comfrey is the easiest plant I've ever grown, no joke, and I've grown hundreds of different plants and veggies
damn thing clones like no other, you could probably throw a comfrey cut in the gutter and see roots soon after
check this pic out, this is one that I rooted and I thought it died, nope, resilient as hell
all that brown much on the side was the old part, it roots, dies off, and sends out new growth
pretty cool shit

 

[Big_boy_tay_tay]

Taking notes as i read, First off, Thank you guys for a quick reply! Rasta Roy & greasemonkey read a lot of your posts great info! so thanks for helping me out with this one.

Im leaning to the oyster shell flour , and will use the Bat Guano and Alfalfa for teas.

So for the soil , should i maybe use a COCO base instead of FFOF since its pre amended? Any brand suggestions?

The Amendment rates - 1/2 cup to heavy? possibly 1/4 or a tad over 1/4? i will be reusing the soil " hear it only gets better the more you use it "

Will defiantly start two soils, but I'm kinda confused ( sorry I'm totally new to this ) basically i should "cook" one soil pile and use the other pile just as is of FFOF? won't i run into deficiency problems later? or am i supposed to transplant into amended soil before flower like normal. Again i apologize for the noob questions but i want to understand and be prepared to the best of my abilities.

GOAF = general organics ancient forest

So with the updates see if I'm moving in the right direction and if there should be any more stuff added. Could you possibly let me know what rate you would mix your amendments.
Going to go with 1/4 - 1/2 cup per cubic foot soil. making a total 28 us gals or 14 cubic feet.

EWC 1/2 base
Some brand of COCO 1/2 base sunshine mix#4?

Rice Hauls around 20%
Lava Rocks around 20%

Kelp Meal 1/2 cup
Neem Cake 1/2 cup
Fish Meal 1/4 cup maybe a tad over
Crab Shell Meal 1/2 cup
Oyster Shell Flour 1/2 cup
Basalt 1/2 cup

Extreme Gardening myco ( transplant only? )

seams like so little but I'm the newb.

 

[Rasta Roy]

Taking notes as i read, First off, Thank you guys for a quick reply! Rasta Roy & greasemonkey read a lot of your posts great info! so thanks for helping me out with this one.

Im leaning to the oyster shell flour , and will use the Bat Guano and Alfalfa for teas.

So for the soil , should i maybe use a COCO base instead of FFOF since its pre amended? Any brand suggestions?

The Amendment rates - 1/2 cup to heavy? possibly 1/4 or a tad over 1/4? i will be reusing the soil " hear it only gets better the more you use it "

Will defiantly start two soils, but I'm kinda confused ( sorry I'm totally new to this ) basically i should "cook" one soil pile and use the other pile just as is of FFOF? won't i run into deficiency problems later? or am i supposed to transplant into amended soil before flower like normal. Again i apologize for the noob questions but i want to understand and be prepared to the best of my abilities.

GOAF = general organics ancient forest

So with the updates see if I'm moving in the right direction and if there should be any more stuff added. Could you possibly let me know what rate you would mix your amendments.
Going to go with 1/4 - 1/2 cup per cubic foot soil. making a total 28 us gals or 14 cubic feet.

EWC 1/2 base
Some brand of COCO 1/2 base sunshine mix#4?

Rice Hauls around 20%
Lava Rocks around 20%

Kelp Meal 1/2 cup
Neem Cake 1/2 cup
Fish Meal 1/4 cup maybe a tad over
Crab Shell Meal 1/2 cup
Oyster Shell Flour 1/2 cup
Basalt 1/2 cup

Extreme Gardening myco ( transplant only? )

seams like so little but I'm the newb.

I prefer a peat moss/perlite base to Coco because I have access to them for cheap. A bale of promix works great too and is already prelimed.

No need for brand loyalty, i like to get the base ingredients and build myself or you'd just want something that is just peat or Coco or pine bark fines, and aeration with no amendments added (except lime). Whatever is cheapest and easiest available to you will work.

Your rates would be fine for that.

If you're using the ffof or any other amended soil I think it best to just plant in the soil at the start and then top dress with the additional amendments you need as the grow goes on. Although going this route definitely be aware of your amendment's release times. Guanos are available right away. Kelp, and alfalfa are pretty quick as well. Crab shell meal and fish Meal should be applied a couple weeks before you're anticipating needing them.

 

[Rasta Roy]

The second soil is supposed to sit and age while your current grow is going. When you flip your crop you use that soil that has been sitting. Reamend your old soil and let it age for your next round. This was my method up until now...now I'll be using all my soil all the time. But I'm doing giant beds. @Big_boy_tay_tay

 

[Wetdog]

i hear ya man, I am also a subscriber of "free is better" too
but sadlyi don't think there's a way to breed myco on our own, reason is it needs roots to propagate, and also myco is quickly consumed
but I don't know everything regarding it, but I don't think you can propagate it on your own
that being said, makes me wonder how THEY do it..
breeding indigenous microbes isn't difficult though, but thats way different than the mychorrizhae

KNF is reaaal good shit, essentially mimicking the environment
BUT myco is crucial man, it's responsible for the majority of phosphorus uptake and usage

Myself, I use MycoGrow soluble from Fungi Perfecti. Saw an ad in "Organic Gardening and Farming" WAY before the internet in the late 70's, early 80's IIRC. Paul Stamets has been around for years. Cost is ~$7 or so.

From what I remember, there are only 3-5 actual producers of myco, which is then sold in bulk and repackaged by whomever. It's grown in large fields, much like sod, the roots then harvested and processed.

You can grow your own and I do it every year. But it does take some time and mainly to inoculate fresh mix. Alliums (Garlic, onions, leeks, etc), love mycos and every fall I'll mix up 8-10cf of fresh mix and plant garlic in it. I inoculate with the myco grow. We eat a lot of garlic, and with a 8 month growing season (Nov to June), there is plenty of time for the myco to develop. At harvest, the roots are added back into the mix and then used for other plantings.

The Rodale farm used a semi permanent bed of Leeks for myco. Simply inoculating the leeks, growing, and then, after a time, digging up, harvesting some of the roots, then re-planting the leeks. The infected roots are used to inoculate other plants and the leeks keep growing, producing more mycos. Easy Peazy.

Wet

 

[ShLUbY]

i think another thing you might want to consider using peat for your mix instead of coco is the acidity factor of the peat itself (plus the microbes that are already in the peat itself). you can add some coco to the peat to help with the hydrophobic tendencies of the peat itself. the typical base mix growers use is 1/3 peat, 1/3 areation, 1/3 organic matter

all your 1/2c rates are fine with the exception of the basalt dust, i would go HEAVY like 2-4c/ft3 soil.

 

[Big_boy_tay_tay]

Ok I'm going to go with the peat, maybe toss in a little coco swell, ( diversity is better right ). Rasta I'm reading your thread " Organic Growing " and getting way into it, can i hit you up with some tea questions when needed? What about adding multiple rock dusts? ( think greasemonkey answered that question ) but just to clarify it for me. Shluby meet ya in the middle and go about 3 cups per cubic foot on the rock dusts? same ratio for all the dusts olivine,glacial,basalt?

as always much appreciated for all your help ladies and gents!

 

[Big_boy_tay_tay]

wanted to mention sorry for the late reply's its finals week

 

[ShLUbY]

Ok I'm going to go with the peat, maybe toss in a little coco swell, ( diversity is better right ). Rasta I'm reading your thread " Organic Growing " and getting way into it, can i hit you up with some tea questions when needed? What about adding multiple rock dusts? ( think greasemonkey answered that question ) but just to clarify it for me. Shluby meet ya in the middle and go about 3 cups per cubic foot on the rock dusts? same ratio for all the dusts olivine,glacial,basalt?

as always much appreciated for all your help ladies and gents!

the dusts total add 3cup, so if you have 3 types of dust, a cup of each will be good i'll leave the tea questions to the other gurus cause I dont use nutrient teas Good luck! it's a piece of cake

 

[Rasta Roy]

Ok I'm going to go with the peat, maybe toss in a little coco swell, ( diversity is better right ). Rasta I'm reading your thread " Organic Growing " and getting way into it, can i hit you up with some tea questions when needed? What about adding multiple rock dusts? ( think greasemonkey answered that question ) but just to clarify it for me. Shluby meet ya in the middle and go about 3 cups per cubic foot on the rock dusts? same ratio for all the dusts olivine,glacial,basalt?

as always much appreciated for all your help ladies and gents!

Yeah man you can direct message me anytime.

For rock dusts I use langbenite, and Greensand. Ill use basalt when I got it on hand but I don't apply mineral stuff that much. Every few recycles ill add it in.