Sending my compost and worm castings to a lab...

[greasemonkeymann]

Them roots need O water forces out air & the flow brings in fresh Oxygen

But more drainage means more water so it striking the balance is the sweet spot

the key is to match the types of aeration to the mix/growing environment, in other words, with humus heavy mixes, sand and perlite do better, in drier or peat based mixes (or higher grow room temps), vermiculite, pumice, and more water retaining aeration is needed, reason being peat's tendency to create surface tension when it dries.
Sorta the reason I prefer compost to vermicompost, wormcastings are DENSE, especially if made from fruitbased worm food
but pure compost is fairly dense too, and retains a LOT of water.
in the summer I add rotted tree-log chunks to help keep the mix moist (gets around 100 here sometimes)
but even the lights used, can create enough differences to warrant different types, and/or different amounts of aeration
an example is LEDs, they don't create nearly the heat that the sun or that HIDs do, so you want more water repelling aeration, like perlite, sand, etc.

 

[rikdabrick]

I agree 420%! I have ~40% perlite in my mixes with more aeration (like pine bark fines), that ends up as humus as time goes on. I use no compost in my mixes but VC and the worms, working on the top dressings, makes it denser and adding even more humus. More perlite is needed every reamend.

My raised beds started as pure red clay. Took a shit ton of lime to get it right at first, but it only needs more dolo every other year or so. If more Ca is needed, gypsum is used, but too much Ca will start locking out K, so everything in moderation. Getting OM in is the hard part and my leaf mold piles are on top of the raised beds. It's slow, but steady.

@stang
Those plants look fantastic!! A learning lesson on aeration and why Grease and I use high amounts. Bet you never have a too dense mix again.

Wet

With your red clay, do you know what the pH is from a reliable meter or lab? Is dolomite the lime you used for your red clay? What percentage of Ca saturation would you consider too much?

Dr. William Albrecht said the ideal ratio of saturation percentage for Ca was 65% and Mg 15%. That was based off of 4 decades of 1000's of tests all over the US. Michael Astera, author of The Ideal Soil says, 68% Ca, 12% Mg in soils below 7pH and 83.5% Ca and 10% Mg in soils above 7pH. That was also based off the work of several other agronomists and a collaboration from several growers. Michael Kraidy an agronomist in Peru who is out-producing anybody in the world in limes and avocados says 85% Ca saturation. And the best wine grapes in the world (arguably) are grown in the Dolomitc Mountains in Italy in soil with 90%+ Ca. saturation. Dr. Victor Tiedjens was beating yields by 2-5x's with his crops dumping 20-50 tons of lime per acre, not a misprint, up to 100,000 lbs per acre. And that was actually ag lime, not dolomite. He was actually doing that on land that other weren't even able to grow food on anymore. The most revolutionary and best agronomists who have grown the healthiest plants in the world (IMO) have all shot for high to very high Ca saturation.

And I remember you saying you use dolomite as a buffer. It's the calcium in dolomite that buffers your soil. Any calcium acts as a buffer. Dolomite doesn't have special buffering properties. Here's a link to Soil Fertility and Animal Health by Dr. William Albrecht. It's a great read and I think it might be in section 4 or 5 (maybe) that shows how calcium buffered the soils in a wide range of soil pH. It's a great read. http://soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/01aglibrary/010141.soil.fertility.animal.health/010146.albrecht.animal.health.pdf

I am not purposefully trying to frustrate you. I asked some of those questions for a reason. For example, if you're using dolomite on red clay you would see a lot faster results with getting it more workable and draining freely with high calcitic lime or prilled calcium carbonate (pretty much the same thing in different forms). And I would pick what calcium product to use based on pH.

 

[calliandra]

the key is to match the types of aeration to the mix/growing environment, in other words, with humus heavy mixes, sand and perlite do better, in drier or peat based mixes (or higher grow room temps), vermiculite, pumice, and more water retaining aeration is needed, reason being peat's tendency to create surface tension when it dries.
Sorta the reason I prefer compost to vermicompost, wormcastings are DENSE, especially if made from fruitbased worm food
but pure compost is fairly dense too, and retains a LOT of water.
in the summer I add rotted tree-log chunks to help keep the mix moist (gets around 100 here sometimes)
but even the lights used, can create enough differences to warrant different types, and/or different amounts of aeration
an example is LEDs, they don't create nearly the heat that the sun or that HIDs do, so you want more water repelling aeration, like perlite, sand, etc.

Ah I so love it when you put it all together like that, so the wondrous workings become just as clear and easy to handle as taking the next breath - and without losing their magic too.

 

[rikdabrick]

@Wetdog I had to take off yesterday. Anyway, I'm sure you are a good and competent grower and really, you're experience isn't something that can be replicated. So like I said, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. You can probably "feel" what you're plants and soil need more than most people can by far so keep doing what you're doing.

And too explain myself when I said I would pick what calcium product I would use based off of pH I meant I would use a carbonate or silicate source for a pH of below 6.4. I'd use 50% carbonate or silicate and 50% gypsum for a soil with a pH of between 6.4 and 6.8. And I'd use gypsum for a soil with a pH above 6.8. All as a general rule of thumb.

Since few things in life can be that simple though some consideration should be used. For example, if I had a soil with a pH of 6.2 and I believed it needed more calcium based off of intuition or a soil test and I knew my water had a high amount of carbonates and/or bicarbonates (high water pH can be an indicator) then I would either want to make sure I treat my water with something like sulfuric acid and go ahead and use a calcium carbonate or silicate source OR I'd want to mix in some gypsum which I'd probably go with an 80% carbonate or silicate and 20% gypsum since the soil is already pretty close to my ideal pH and the gypsum will help disassociate the free carbonates and/or bicarbonates in the water.

And obviously I'm not underplaying the need for magnesium. You definitely don't want to be behind in Mg in your plants. In lightweight mixes like a lot of growers use or in loose soils, like sandy and sandy loam soils, I think a higher percentage of Mg is probably necessary. Personally I'm shooting for about 10% Mg saturation which I think is plenty and I foliar feed Mg at least once a month for a little boost which may be unnecessary, but like I said you don't want to be Mg deficient. You're already 2 weeks behind on Mg by the time it shows up as a deficiency.

Anyway, I mean the best and it sounds like you have a good system going and obviously have a lot of experience so maybe none of this will be helpful to you, but at least it's free, ha ha.

 

[Jaybodankly]

Seems like that pH is to high for some nutrients to be able to assimilate. Try and adjust the pH closer to neutral then redo the soil test. I run a lot of earthworms in my mix.Their gut bacteria neutralizes the pH of the soil. I test the pH every 6 months or so. Always the same 7.0.

 

[Wetdog]

rikdabrick

LOL, I read and reread both posts and it made my brane hurt.

I haven't a clue about %'s or saturation, mainly watching the plants and worm activity.

Mainly use dolo because of availability. Calcitic seems to be hit or miss, being available one season and not the next. I do snag some when it's around. Gypsum is used quite a bit as a Ca source and for the sulfur. It was another garlic grower who clued me in on gypsum some years ago, before I saw much mention in forums like this. Good stuff!

I mainly use things that are local and cheap, springing for shipping only for kelp and neem meal in bulk. Being on a fixed income really sucks, but things work out.

Wet

 

[Fastslappy]

rikdabrick

LOL, I read and reread both posts and it made my brane hurt.

I haven't a clue about %'s or saturation, mainly watching the plants and worm activity.

Mainly use dolo because of availability. Calcitic seems to be hit or miss, being available one season and not the next. I do snag some when it's around. Gypsum is used quite a bit as a Ca source and for the sulfur. It was another garlic grower who clued me in on gypsum some years ago, before I saw much mention in forums like this. Good stuff!

I mainly use things that are local and cheap, springing for shipping only for kelp and neem meal in bulk. Being on a fixed income really sucks, but things work out.

Wet

yeah i found local sources the best prices on the 50-40lbs bags of everything that could come in a lrg bag .
even the pumice is cheap if u know what yer looking for in a feed store ,fixed income sucks but being resourceful goes a long way with defraying costs
still looking local for that neem meal it will be only time before the local stores wise up & stock this shit in bulk they'd win back a slew of customers from online if they did
my local hydro store looks like a compost bag convention in the parking lot . they now have 20 different compost & don't sell that Fox farm forest shit much anymore but to nuwbie organics
they also have the best price on Bu-Blend from Malibu Compost anywhere

 

[Jaybodankly]

Stop by a real bakery, by a loaf of good bread and ask if they have eggshells. They will be happy to give you a 5gal bucket full otherwise they are heading to the trash. Add them to the compost pile and they will be ready in a few months for your next grow.

 

[ttystikk]

Stop by a real bakery, by a loaf of good bread and ask if they have eggshells. They will be happy to give you a 5gal bucket full otherwise they are heading to the trash. Add them to the compost pile and they will be ready in a few months for your next grow.

Most bakeries use eggs from a tub, already cracked and blended. This is good advice if you can find the right place.

Jewish deli is another good option.

 

[Jaybodankly]

Agreed. That is why I used real bakery.

 

[rikdabrick]

rikdabrick

LOL, I read and reread both posts and it made my brane hurt.

I haven't a clue about %'s or saturation, mainly watching the plants and worm activity.

Mainly use dolo because of availability. Calcitic seems to be hit or miss, being available one season and not the next. I do snag some when it's around. Gypsum is used quite a bit as a Ca source and for the sulfur. It was another garlic grower who clued me in on gypsum some years ago, before I saw much mention in forums like this. Good stuff!

I mainly use things that are local and cheap, springing for shipping only for kelp and neem meal in bulk. Being on a fixed income really sucks, but things work out.

Wet

I'll work on my communication skillz, ha ha. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You know what you're doing. On the calcium sources I was just saying to use lime if pH is low, gypsum if pH is high and 50/50 if pH is good. You're getting good results with dolomite so don't fix what's not broken.

I've read, but haven't confirmed you should take calcium supplements the same way for your body based on body pH, e.g. an acid based calcium if your body pH is high and an alkaline based calcium if your body pH is low. I thought that was interesting and it makes sense to me anyway.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

I'll work on my communication skillz, ha ha. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You know what you're doing. On the calcium sources I was just saying to use lime if pH is low, gypsum if pH is high and 50/50 if pH is good. You're getting good results with dolomite so don't fix what's not broken.

I've read, but haven't confirmed you should take calcium supplements the same way for your body based on body pH, e.g. an acid based calcium if your body pH is high and an alkaline based calcium if your body pH is low. I thought that was interesting and it makes sense to me anyway.

Thank you for helping me make sense of the soil test! I dont know if we posted it on this thread but you said that my soil was 4x too strong. I ended up cutting it with something similar to ProMix/SunShine#4, extra perlite, and a little worm castings that I had on hand. I think that I should be golden now, I appreciate it!!!

 

[FlakeyFoont]

[QUOTE="rikdabrick, post: 13206602, member: 345904" Michael Kraidy an agronomist in Peru who is out-producing anybody in the world in limes and avocados says 85% Ca saturation. .[/QUOTE]
Kraidy has a thread on CEC over at IC mag... can we post links to other sites here?

 

[ttystikk]

[QUOTE="rikdabrick, post: 13206602, member: 345904" Michael Kraidy an agronomist in Peru who is out-producing anybody in the world in limes and avocados says 85% Ca saturation. .

Kraidy has a thread on CEC over at IC mag... can we post links to other sites here?[/QUOTE]

Yes, and what does 85% calcium saturation actually mean?

 

[rikdabrick]

[QUOTE="rikdabrick, post: 13206602, member: 345904" Michael Kraidy an agronomist in Peru who is out-producing anybody in the world in limes and avocados says 85% Ca saturation. .

Kraidy has a thread on CEC over at IC mag... can we post links to other sites here?[/QUOTE]
I should have stated that is Michael Kraidy's claim of himself (producing as much or more than anybody else in the world). Whether or not it's true I do think he produces above average yields of limes and avocados.

 

[rikdabrick]

Kraidy has a thread on CEC over at IC mag... can we post links to other sites here?

Yes, and what does 85% calcium saturation actually mean?[/QUOTE]
CEC stands for Cation Exchange Capacity. The CEC of soil or any medium that can hold minerals is a number that tells you how many cations your soil/medium can hold. If you soil has a high number it can hold a lot of minerals because there's a lot of clay and/or humus colloids with negatively charged sites that will attract and hold onto cations (positively charged minerals); if it's a low number, it can't hold many minerals because there's not a lot of cation sites (basically). So when you're talking about a saturation percentage you would be talking about the percentage of the cation exchange sites that are going to be holding onto a specific mineral or minerals. If you Google "what is Cation Exchange Capacity" you will get a more thorough explanation.

Here's a good read on it IMO
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm&ved=0ahUKEwjJjqvPkIXRAhWM2SwKHc35C2YQFghaMAc&usg=AFQjCNHBSYfVMrQnaT9sSDAXrKcbLcS67A&sig2=JdPpwU2-qXtC2gMnrzwR-g

There's plenty of other places to get the same info too.

 

[Wetdog]

I'll work on my communication skillz, ha ha. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You know what you're doing. On the calcium sources I was just saying to use lime if pH is low, gypsum if pH is high and 50/50 if pH is good. You're getting good results with dolomite so don't fix what's not broken.

I've read, but haven't confirmed you should take calcium supplements the same way for your body based on body pH, e.g. an acid based calcium if your body pH is high and an alkaline based calcium if your body pH is low. I thought that was interesting and it makes sense to me anyway.

I pretty much use dolo just for pH and if more Ca is needed, gypsum gets the nod. Usually as a top dress, though a small amount is added to the mix.

The dolo is added and considered separate from any other minerals and such.

Wet

 

[FlakeyFoont]

Kraidy has a thread on CEC over at IC mag... can we post links to other sites here?

I should have stated that is Michael Kraidy's claim of himself (producing as much or more than anybody else in the world). Whether or not it's true I do think he produces above average yields of limes and avocados.[/QUOTE]
There's other folks that think the same thing, lol! He's interested in pot, though, which could be very helpful.

In my garden, hard, hard well water eventually gave my recycled soil a 8-9 pH... when I finally checked it! Gypsum and peat are really helping that around... plus a couple of rain barrels, lol!