Flowering with 14 hours light

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
Not enough to justify spending the extra cash on all the electrical. Say around 15+ %. The thing being is that around here. The more elec. you use. The higher cost bracket you jump into,when in a residential use classification. I'm not and it's still too much..
Around that but, not as much as I thought it would...I got only days in difference...

Shorter times are faster, yet once you go below 10/14. You really start seeing reduced yields....
So pretty much a linear increase, 1/6th more hours equated to about 1/6th more weight, and only a few days extra time to ripen. Sounds like a viable option where people don't have to worry as much about power. So the buds weren't leafy or loose or anything like that?
 

RetiredGuerilla

Well-Known Member
I simulated Alaska's photoperiod in a experiment with a indica. The last 2 weeks the lights were on only 4 hours per day. I kept the lights close and ended up with some unreal smoke with huge trikes. Some white widow fans run them with no light or water the last week forcing the plant to produce more trichomes as a defense mechanism.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Here's something I found interesting, from this article. It appears that weed can flower under surprisingly long days. The flowering phases were identical with 12/12 and the natural outdoor day lengths which varied from more than 14 to less than 12. This may explain why people have flowered with 14 hour days while using end of day far red treatments. I couldn't find any evidence that such treatments are capable of reducing the number of dark hours required for short day plants to flower, though it was useful for increasing stem length.

It's probably possible to flower with 14 hour days even without any far red treatments and the length of time to maturity may not be that much different from 12/12. Can't really tell from this table because at the end the days are less than 12 hours anyway, but I think it's possible. At least they started flowering and kept flowering at the same rate as 12 hours in the early phases, which is unexpected. Since the table shows that florets formed with 14.16 hours, they must have started being induced a week earlier with 14.4 hours. That particular strain, G5, was a high CBD strain, but it may be similar for THC ones.

Inda-gro has been doing the far reds with led for quite a while....their gardens show a marked increase in bud sites as well.

To your point, its my understanding the 730nm far red triggers the phytochrome within seconds rather than a couple hours just going lights off to the dark with traditional PAR used in most of our indoor lighting. Supposedly you can add this saved time to the lights on.

Apologies if this was covered already, I just jumped from start to finish.
 
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Odin*

Well-Known Member
I don't have the time nor energy to fully address this, nor do I want to contradict what anyone has said/believes/utilizes, but far red exposure does not extend your lights on period or improve "bloom", nor does suppressing light exposure below 12hrs.

Many have documented 14/10 grows w/o any/significant far red exposure. This would mean that with the inclusion of far red, one could bloom with 8 (or even 7, given the strain) hours of "night". That just doesn't happen indoors, or in nature (in which all cannabis is exposed to far red). Therefore, "Bogus!".

And, "Yes", bloom is triggered and maintained by the introduction of a critical duration of "night", but it is the energy created and stored during the "day" that powers the machine. Anything less than 12 is running on low octane with high compression. Therefore, "Bogus!".
 

RetiredGuerilla

Well-Known Member
As always with this plant we all love there are variables. In nature during fall depending on latitude the days gradually get shorter. Alaska loses about 6 minutes per day. Kentucky loses 1 or 2. I have noticed far more hermies with 12 or more hour days. Like always it depends on strain and the growers technique. I have grown some hi grade meds replicating the photoperiod of Alaska.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
So pretty much a linear increase, 1/6th more hours equated to about 1/6th more weight, and only a few days extra time to ripen. Sounds like a viable option where people don't have to worry as much about power. So the buds weren't leafy or loose or anything like that?
Linear, yes...and yes......We actually did use them for a year or so in a commercial op. Located in an old Tool and Die shop. We had no electrical problems there! Commercial rates are lower for high consumption....It ended up we had to open another op as the demand was far outstripping our ability to keep up with that demand for the high CBD strains. We had ourselves (2) and 3 other dispensaries to keep supplied with that and several other high demand strains.

No, not at all. In fact most of your actual yield increase is in density! There is some size increase if your not feeding at the optimal rate. There's that dial in importance again!

Great questions Bob!
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
I don't have the time nor energy to fully address this, nor do I want to contradict what anyone has said/believes/utilizes, but far red exposure does not extend your lights on period or improve "bloom", nor does suppressing light exposure below 12hrs.

Many have documented 14/10 grows w/o any/significant far red exposure. This would mean that with the inclusion of far red, one could bloom with 8 (or even 7, given the strain) hours of "night". That just doesn't happen indoors, or in nature (in which all cannabis is exposed to far red). Therefore, "Bogus!".

And, "Yes", bloom is triggered and maintained by the introduction of a critical duration of "night", but it is the energy created and stored during the "day" that powers the machine. Anything less than 12 is running on low octane with high compression. Therefore, "Bogus!".
I agree to this except for your wording, and a bit of the science!

Yes, exposure to 730nm does shut the plant down (Phytochrome response to the 730nm or F(ar)R(ed) results in the change from the active chromoprotein [Pfr] to the inactive chromophore [Pr]) and allow for longer (un-needed and rather un-effective) lights on times..This allows for no extra stress or chance of "bisexual expression"..

This is documented in several college studies...It is outlined all over the net!...I'll have to poke around for them if you want them but, I got them somewhere.
The amount of any "increase" is not worth the cost in almost every attempt to make that idea work. Best I ever got was about 17% (new strain , not dialed in) and the average was less then 10.

I strongly suspect that the results obtained were due to quality dial in's on the strains.....I mean (and you know this), once you have the strain running at about potential. Your not going to pull out of the plant what it can't do!

Right?

Not attempting to argue my friend - just pointing some extra shit out....

:peace:
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
I simulated Alaska's photoperiod in a experiment with a indica. The last 2 weeks the lights were on only 4 hours per day. I kept the lights close and ended up with some unreal smoke with huge trikes. Some white widow fans run them with no light or water the last week forcing the plant to produce more trichomes as a defense mechanism.
The extended lack of lighting at the end of bloom will not increase trichome size or production!
This is a myth that has been repeated and repeatedly shot down here, over and over.
I would have ignored this but, I can not let myth grow and flourish !!
 

RetiredGuerilla

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but those were the results. Like it or not. You think I just made up some tall tale? Short light cycles work awesome as long as temps and light intensity are optimal. Trichomes are part of the plants defense to protect it from insects, critters and such in order for it to reproduce. I'm just trying to impart wisdom from past experiences not disinformation. Rolls eyes
 
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Odin*

Well-Known Member
@Dr. Who And I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying (for the most part). However, that (Pfr to Pr) doesn't tell the whole story. There are various other metabolic processes that occur during lights out that a short burst of far red light cannot reproduce. It does not "shorten" your lights out period. Again, if that were true, then 8 hours (or less) of darkness would be ample to maintain bloom (w/far red exposure) as there are a number of documented "10 hours of dark" grows w/o far red. That, and greenhouse growers wouldn't have to utilize "covers" to initiate bloom due to the far red light that plants are exposed to. It would also indicate that those same plants would be able to bloom at any point of the year (at least, here in CA), as there isn't any period of darkness of fewer than 8 hours.

Far red doesn't put them "to sleep" either, the plants own internal clock does. I'm sure that you have noticed that they are "ready for sleep" moments before lights out (regardless of your schedule) and prepared for lights on moments prior. Lights are at full intensity up until the moment that they shut off, but the plants are "asleep" before this happens. Don't need a lab coat and peer reviewed work to recognize that. This, indipendent of far red exposure (if any).

Not arguing, just pointing out that "It isn't as simple as THAT".
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but those were the results. Like it or not. You think I just made up some tall tale? Short light cycles work awesome as long as temps and light intensity are optimal. Trichomes are part of the plants defense to protect it from insects, critters and such in order for it to reproduce. I'm just trying to impart wisdom from past experiences not disinformation. Rolls eyes
And just how did we measure the increase? By eye?
I'm sorry man.....but that one is perceived and not actual.....This theory has been disproven time and time again!

Ask this guy...@RM3

If it did work, don't you think the writers of grow guides would have a page on the idea? Green, Rosenthal, Cervantes (Golly That RM3 guy writes grow guide books too!)
It would be common knowledge and it would be practiced by everyone!
Does REV or Danko promote the idea in their respective magazine bylines?

Increase trich's? Try a Mag sulfate or a P sulfate supplement with a carb in it.....That actually works!

There are more then a few out there. They have the same formula's and are costly to buy! I can make my own and save a shit ton of my cash over buying name brand one's!

Want the formula's? Ask and I'll give you them!
 

RetiredGuerilla

Well-Known Member
18 hour light cycle decreased to 4 over a 8 week period. Vertical and horizontal lighting. Optimal temps organic soil. Very few growers experiment with photoperiods and the cannabis plants relationship with light. Matsu valley Alaskan thunder fuck ever heard of it? Or the enormous veggies grown there ? Look it up ! Just when you think you know it all some old fart with 30 years of indoor n outdoor experience comes along .... I have read Cervantes book George lassens book and Robert Clark's marijuana botany I love them all. 12/12 is rule of thumb for noobs not the holy gospel the world is flat or you will be burned at the stake. Good god !! Lmao
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
@Dr. Who And I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying (for the most part). However, that (Pfr to Pr) doesn't tell the whole story. There are various other metabolic processes that occur during lights out that a short burst of far red light cannot reproduce. It does not "shorten" your lights out period. Again, if that were true, then 8 hours (or less) of darkness would be ample to maintain bloom (w/far red exposure) as there are a number of documented "10 hours of dark" grows w/o far red. That, and greenhouse growers wouldn't have to utilize "covers" to initiate bloom due to the far red light that plants are exposed to. It would also indicate that those same plants would be able to bloom at any point of the year (at least, here in CA), as there isn't any period of darkness of fewer than 8 hours.

Far red doesn't put them "to sleep" either, the plants own internal clock does. I'm sure that you have noticed that they are "ready for sleep" moments before lights out (regardless of your schedule) and prepared for lights on moments prior. Lights are at full intensity up until the moment that they shut off, but the plants are "asleep" before this happens. Don't need a lab coat and peer reviewed work to recognize that. This, indipendent of far red exposure (if any).

Not arguing, just pointing out that "It isn't as simple as THAT".
I put it in simple terms for the mass's here...
Ah, your very correct on what gores on at "night" and not so correct on the FR part. I think you may need some further research into the transitional lighting affects of the fr nm bands on plants.
We agree to disagree on that then.....I'll stick with my college grad studies and personal experiments from them.

Also, I am not saying that FR regulates flowering alone! (although, pigment driven light receptors, effecting plant functions and responses is a rather fascinating study!)

Read some of this as they touch on the subject and the site actually used to list papers on it.....asshats removed them and reduced the price from when I got the damn things from around $300+

The claims are still overblown and I still say it's NOT worth it!

http://growlightsource.com/products/the-flower-initiator-and-booster-grow-lights/
http://growlightsource.com/the-flower-initiator-10-watt-ip65-far-red-indoor-outdoor-grow-light/

Peep this too.

http://www.cannabisculture.com/content/2011/04/18/ask-ed-questions-and-answers-light-deprivation-how-ditch-tarp

Just throwing back my 2cents of proof....

:peace: I'll stick with "We agree to disagree" at any rate.
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
18 hour light cycle decreased to 4 over a 8 week period. Vertical and horizontal lighting. Optimal temps organic soil. Very few growers experiment with photoperiods and the cannabis plants relationship with light. Matsu valley Alaskan thunder fuck ever heard of it? Or the enormous veggies grown there ? Look it up ! Just when you think you know it all some old fart with 30 years of indoor n outdoor experience comes along .... I have read Cervantes book George lassens book and Robert Clark's marijuana botany I love them all. 12/12 is rule of thumb for noobs not the holy gospel the world is flat or you will be burned at the stake. Good god !! Lmao
I *like* this! Personally, I hate 12/12 to,,,oh,,pedestrian...
 

Odin*

Well-Known Member
@Dr. Who We both hold degrees (and from what I gather, both in the "sciences"), and I have read plenty regarding far red. Maybe I missed an article, but I have never read one that asserted a short burst (or even up to 30 minutes) was the equivalent of 2 hours of absolute dark, nor have I read one that asserts that photoperiod during flowering can be extended by exposing the plant to a short period of far red prior to "lights out". I'm very sure the latter doesn't exist as far red doesn't really have anything to do with a plants light saturation point or extending it's ability to utilize "more/extended light" in bloom. It does have some effect on "lights out"/initiating bloom. What some articles do suggest/imply is that far red exposure can help initiate/maintain bloom at the cusp of a plants veg-bloom darkness threshold. For example, theoretical cannabis strain "Dank" requires a bare minimum of 11 hours of darkness to initiate/maintain bloom and any less than 11dark will result in veg/reveg/herm. Our grower wishes to run a 13/11 on/off cycle throughout bloom. This puts our plant in a precarious position, it's literally teetering between reveg/bloom and could switch on our grower at any time. In this example, a brief period of far red exposure "may" help maintain bloom and prevent reveg/herming. This is the equivalent to minutes of "extended" dark, not hours of extended light.


En garde! :bigjoint: We can have fun with this.
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Increase trich's? Try a Mag sulfate or a P sulfate supplement with a carb in it.....That actually works!
ok, i'll ask. what formulas you got that work for increasing trichs? when? how much? etc.

i've used uvb supplementation for a few years now and like the results but if i could get more trichs i'd be even happier. had to play around with the htg supply uv bulbs cause they will melt your plants if too close.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
@Dr. Who We both hold degrees (and from what I gather, both in the "sciences"), and I have read plenty regarding far red. Maybe I missed an article, but I have never read one that asserted a short burst (or even up to 30 minutes) was the equivalent of 2 hours of absolute dark, nor have I read one that asserts that photoperiod during flowering can be extended by exposing the plant to a short period of far red prior to "lights out". I'm very sure the latter doesn't exist as far red doesn't really have anything to do with a plants light saturation point or extending it's ability to utilize "more/extended light" in bloom. It does have some effect on "lights out"/initiating bloom. What some articles do suggest/imply is that far red exposure can help initiate/maintain bloom at the cusp of a plants veg-bloom darkness threshold. For example, theoretical cannabis strain "Dank" requires a bare minimum of 11 hours of darkness to initiate/maintain bloom and any less than 11dark will result in veg/reveg/herm. Our grower wishes to run a 13/11 on/off cycle throughout bloom. This puts our plant in a precarious position, it's literally teetering between reveg/bloom and could switch on our grower at any time. In this example, a brief period of far red exposure "may" help maintain bloom and prevent reveg/herming. This is the equivalent to minutes of "extended" dark, not hours of extended light.


En garde! :bigjoint: We can have fun with this.
Precarious - agreed!

It seems that that 2 hr period is shortened to the 5 - 10 min of exposure.....It did work but, didn't really increase yield to any worthwhile result in my test's.....Of course the sellers of those LEDs beg to differ.....I had it out with them by phone on that one....So, I guess in reality. I rather agree with you...other then some minor tech talk....

From a beer commercial - "I love you man". Wish we could sit down and have a beer-n-blunt someday! :bigjoint:
 
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Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
ok, i'll ask. what formulas you got that work for increasing trichs? when? how much? etc.

i've used uvb supplementation for a few years now and like the results but if i could get more trichs i'd be even happier. had to play around with the htg supply uv bulbs cause they will melt your plants if too close.

Copy of Botanicare's Sweet Raw:

8 TBL of organic Epsom
1 1/2 tsp Dark Brown sugar.

Boil in 4 cups of RO till well dissolved.

Pour that into an opaque gallon jug and add RO to fill.

Usage chart:

week before the flip
5ml per gal added to feed
Week 2
10ml per
Week 4
15ml per
week 6
20ml per

Every feeding.

Potassium Sulfate formula (Resinator/Terpinator but mine is a better ratio and feed charting)

https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-correct-homemade-terpinator-resinator-formula.915401/
 
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