Bad phosphorous deficiency.. are they lost?

Its a tool nothing more nothing less. Persons combined experience and knowledge Is their ticket to success.

aRe you telling me that high ec don't matter? That I bullshit.

If you add to much salt your roots get damaged. Period. high EC cl/mg feed is not going to fry em?
I got culls coming up, I'll feed them as you suggest in my one EC soil and thro up pics

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_053280.pdf

High EC will kill plant faster than ph being off will.

This entire section I filled with guy who fucked up eyeballing their plants. why give the advice to eyeball more?
 
@tonygreen

It's a tool nothing more nothing less. (A) persons combined experience and knowledge, is their ticket to success.

Yup, your right - a tool!

Are you telling me that high EC doesn't matter? That Is bullshit.

Nope! Never did say anything like that and I don't know where you got the idea!

If you add to much salt your roots get damaged. Period, high EC Ca/Mg feed is not going to fry em?

#1 - Yup, root damage, soil damage .
#2 - IF YOU FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS FEED CHARTS AND DON'T OVERFEED = NO! (5ml per gallon)


I have got culls coming up, I'll feed them as you suggest in my one EC soil and throw up pics

Be sure to list all your additives, and I'll be waiting!

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_053280.pdf

This covers soil salinity impeding cation exchange in relation to water quality = so what?
It does not cover "How to feed" with any EC meter!
#1 - Never use water over 150ppm.
#2 - Use RO water and NEVER have a water quality issue!
#3 - Quality made soils are built for optimal cation exchange.


High EC will kill a plant faster than pH being off will.

Really? How about you do another little test?
Water with 4.0 or 10.0 pHed water. (+3.0 and -3.0 points of pH from 7.0 in soil - hell jr. Just do 2 points!)
Along side that one, Have the one your setting your EC with the Ca/Mg and Silica to (Or just Ca/Mg - at your amount per gallon). Lets see what one dies first!!


This entire section Is filled with guy's who fucked up, eyeballing their plants. Why give the advice to eyeball more?

The real problem in this section is folks who never bothered to LEARN about what they are doing BEFORE attempting to DO IT!

I think it's FAR better to actually learn something about what you want to achieve, BEFORE trying to do it! Ever jump out of an airplane? You do drive right?

You learn how, before you actually do it eh?

I think that it's better to learn how to DO something and not use a "crutch" to hold up your confidence in success.
I can understand the use of EC/PPM/TDS in hydro......(I still wouldn't, I don't "need" it to be correct in my feedings).
I have NO personal understanding why anyone would use them in soil growing!
There is a large opening for insult here - I'll steer around that, and say again -

Please use what works for YOU!....share your ideal! Just don't supply incorrect usage info....

Good Day
 
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Why use in soil? You sound like the foxfarm rep who told me ec does not matter in soil when I complained about a bag of happy frog that was 6 ec out of the bag and killed my plants in two days.

Ec certainly matters in any growing medium... Tell a farmer soil ec don't matter.

I'll be your huckleberry I'll post a side by side as you described.
 
@tonygreen

It's a tool nothing more nothing less. (A) persons combined experience and knowledge, is their ticket to success.

Yup, your right - a tool!

Are you telling me that high EC doesn't matter? That Is bullshit.

Nope! Never did say anything like that and I don't know where you got the idea!

If you add to much salt your roots get damaged. Period, high EC Ca/Mg feed is not going to fry em?

#1 - Yup, root damage, soil damage .
#2 - IF YOU FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS FEED CHARTS AND DON'T OVERFEED = NO! (5ml per gallon)


I have got culls coming up, I'll feed them as you suggest in my one EC soil and throw up pics

Be sure to list all your additives, and I'll be waiting!

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_053280.pdf

This covers soil salinity impeding cation exchange in relation to water quality = so what?
It does not cover "How to feed" with any EC meter!
#1 - Never use water over 150ppm.
#2 - Use RO water and NEVER have a water quality issue!
#3 - Quality made soils are built for optimal cation exchange.


High EC will kill a plant faster than pH being off will.

Really? How about you do another little test?
Water with 4.0 or 10.0 pHed water. (+3.0 and -3.0 points of pH from 7.0 in soil - hell jr. Just do 2 points!)
Along side that one, Have the one your setting your EC with the Ca/Mg and Silica to (Or just Ca/Mg - at your amount per gallon). Lets see what one dies first!!


This entire section Is filled with guy's who fucked up, eyeballing their plants. Why give the advice to eyeball more?

The real problem in this section is folks who never bothered to LEARN about what they are doing BEFORE attempting to DO IT!

I think it's FAR better to actually learn something about what you want to achieve, BEFORE trying to do it! Ever jump out of an airplane? You do drive right?

You learn how, before you actually do it eh?

I think that it's better to learn how to DO something and not use a "crutch" to hold up your confidence in success.
I can understand the use of EC/PPM/TDS in hydro......(I still wouldn't, I don't "need" it to be correct in my feedings).
I have NO personal understanding why anyone would use them in soil growing!
There is a large opening for insult here - I'll steer around that, and say again -

Please use what works for YOU!....share your ideal! Just don't supply incorrect usage info....

Good Day



You spelled idea wrong chief. Normally I wouldn't bother because I know what you meant but I know how punctuation and grammar matter to You so just a heads up.
 
You spelled idea wrong chief. Normally I wouldn't bother because I know what you meant but I know how punctuation and grammar matter to You so just a heads up.


I'm getting an ec meter either way. And I'm also checking ph.. my plants looked better 24 hours after adjusting ph. Doesn't mean an ec meter will hurt.

I appreciate both of your guys input.. and you both had good info. I'm sure we can leave it at that..
Happy smoking
 
This whole time I didn't know what EC stood for. I just giggled it and what do you know the first site that popped up was from CANNA nutrients, which happens to be what I'm using..
seems like the people who made the exact nutrients I am using, seem to think monitoring both PH AND EC is an important factor in maximizing potential from their nutrients..
Thanks guys
 
You spelled idea wrong chief. Normally I wouldn't bother because I know what you meant but I know how punctuation and grammar matter to You so just a heads up.


NOPE! Wrong guess!

i·de·al
īˈdē(ə)l/
adjective
  1. 1.
    satisfying one's conception of what is perfect; most suitable.
    "the swimming pool is ideal for a quick dip"
    synonyms: perfect, best possible, consummate, supreme, excellent, flawless, faultless,exemplary, classic, model, ultimate, quintessential, picture-perfect
    "ideal flying weather"
  2. 2.
    existing only in the imagination; desirable or perfect but not likely to become a reality.
    "in an ideal world, we might have made a different decision"
    synonyms: unattainable, unachievable, impracticable, chimerical; More
noun
  1. 1.
    a person or thing regarded as perfect.
    "you're my ideal of how a man should be"
    synonyms: perfection, paragon, epitome, shining example, ne plus ultra, nonpareil, dream
    "no woman could be the ideal he imagined for himself"
The grammar thing was because it was bugging my CDO (that's OCD but, in alphabetical order)...

Why use in soil? You sound like the foxfarm rep who told me ec does not matter in soil when I complained about a bag of happy frog that was 6 ec out of the bag and killed my plants in two days.

Ec certainly matters in any growing medium... Tell a farmer soil ec don't matter.

I'll be your huckleberry I'll post a side by side as you described.

I dislike most reps too..

Um, Tony.. I DO farm! Organic 4 farm co-op! Beeves, Poultry, and we're working on the transition to the newest operation, a dairy. Just about in the middle of the 3 years of field transition to Organic certification....Fun fact is that we picked up the dairy op...For the organic manure end source! Mostly for the grain and vegetable operations. We will be producing whole and raw milk organic cheese's for the health food/Amish markets and our farmers market stands. The organic milk has already been contracted to a major food chain. Also travel a cpl a times a year to lecture on sustainable organic farming and old world/style farming techniques. Sometimes called. "Low carbon footprint farming".
EC, PPM, TDS mean little to me on the farm. Other then PPM, sometimes as a math tool.
Now pH? That's a whole different story!

Like I said before, and I mean it!

Please use what works for YOU!....share your ideal! Just don't supply incorrect usage info....
BTW, if you supplement your soil with proper liming before use (most are already). You don't have to use a Ca/Mg!

If you can find it in your area. Switch to POTTERS GOLD soil! No feeding for 30 days and it always has the right amount of Ca and Mg - No additional needed! Your doing synthetics, right?

Hmm, that makes me have to ask. How long are the plants in your soil of choice before you begin to use nutrients?
 
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I am in a water only mix atm. Thats what I am saying. My soil has as much salts in it as I need. If I ever do need to do a random feed of something I have to be careful what I add. The soil is already 1.1.
I know for a fact if I mix up say a gallon of 1.5 EC feed (which is common on many feed charts) and pour that on my 1.1 EC soil my plants are going to say fuck you tonygreen, and fast.
If I mixed up a gallon of feed at 3 or 4 EC they will die practically over night. One problem with bagged soils is you don't know what EC they are out of the bag. As I mentioned I recently picked up a bag of foxfarm that was like 6 EC on the slurry test I did after they died. I have a plant growing in a 1.5 ec soil as well, there is very little room to move things around or add much at all in that 1. It gets pure water un Phed. I I add 5 grams of maxi to a gallon of water and water that soil with a high EC feed it is not going to go well.

Salt damage is real, and very easy to cause if you don't know any better. Like you said learn first, better, but in the real world most newer growers go just as you say by trial and error.
You have quiet the experience behind you it is no wonder you can eyeball things well. For a new guy, they don't have that skill set you do. My suggestion for the EC meter was more of a learning tool than a "you have to do this". Once you have one you know what your nutes come out to, specifically.

We can go up and down this section and most problems are salt damage or PH damage first and foremost. I only post in these sections to try to help out new guys that might need a hand like people used to do for me. Sure do not want to argue with anyone or be negative. Seems like you mightt have jumped on my original post thinking I was preaching to the guy about the must have way to do things,,, not at all there is a million ways to get the job done. For a new guy learning these concepts as they go a few tools can help make life easier and expand their knowledge. So cheers mate.
 
I am in a water only mix atm. Thats what I am saying. My soil has as much salts in it as I need. If I ever do need to do a random feed of something I have to be careful what I add. The soil is already 1.1.
I know for a fact if I mix up say a gallon of 1.5 EC feed (which is common on many feed charts) and pour that on my 1.1 EC soil my plants are going to say fuck you tonygreen, and fast.
If I mixed up a gallon of feed at 3 or 4 EC they will die practically over night. One problem with bagged soils is you don't know what EC they are out of the bag. As I mentioned I recently picked up a bag of foxfarm that was like 6 EC on the slurry test I did after they died. I have a plant growing in a 1.5 ec soil as well, there is very little room to move things around or add much at all in that 1. It gets pure water un Phed. I I add 5 grams of maxi to a gallon of water and water that soil with a high EC feed it is not going to go well.

Salt damage is real, and very easy to cause if you don't know any better. Like you said learn first, better, but in the real world most newer growers go just as you say by trial and error.
You have quiet the experience behind you it is no wonder you can eyeball things well. For a new guy, they don't have that skill set you do. My suggestion for the EC meter was more of a learning tool than a "you have to do this". Once you have one you know what your nutes come out to, specifically.

We can go up and down this section and most problems are salt damage or PH damage first and foremost. I only post in these sections to try to help out new guys that might need a hand like people used to do for me. Sure do not want to argue with anyone or be negative. Seems like you mightt have jumped on my original post thinking I was preaching to the guy about the must have way to do things,,, not at all there is a million ways to get the job done. For a new guy learning these concepts as they go a few tools can help make life easier and expand their knowledge. So cheers mate.

Nice post, and I understand better now what you were getting at! I realized in the last post of mine that you were most likely directing your ideal in regards to a soil still containing it's own nutritional value!
When I did soils and synthetics. I would always allow the nutrient in the soil to become used up, before beginning any nutrient use...
If your building and using water only soils and you are still adding something along the way.....You should adjust your nutritional mix to cover those needs.

I use 3 soils I build
A base soil that contains 30 days of basic feeding.
A longer term, higher N, lower P soil for vegging (I also like a higher K level then most nutrients/soils use in ratio)
And an appropriate N available, with higher P and another boost in my higher K levels, bloom soil.

If I have to "adjust" for strains.....I'll simple add or subtract the needed amounts of one to another to get my desired effect!

As far as salt damage. I don't care for that "term". Leaving it at a "nutrient" problem is easier for the newer grower to understand. Over or under feeding is a major problem and early use of overly high P bloom feeds and the following "yellowing" of the plant gets my goat around here......Most of that is the nutrient manufacturer's fault for the rather incorrect feeding instructions they give out!

Not all of them but, by far the most!

I've been seeing first hand some nice things coming from the Botanicare KIND line. Must say I've been rather impressed with it's results from friends using it. Figure I'll play with some soilless runs with it.....I do that sometimes. Try things I see working, to see what I can do with it...

Nice chatting Tony!
 
Dr. Who, you're not entirely right. EC (ppm), i.e., fert content is what drives the pH level. It takes a lot of patience to read through this argumentative thread, but it looks to me that not only is the grower not helped much by this, but anyone who has the patience to read all of this and is naïve about growing, will be misinformed. This is so common on this site and other message boards, where persons who are aggressive writers make their argument in a way that it becomes impossible for naïve readers to be unable to determine fact from b.s. fiction.
The problem here is 6 tablespoons (!) of Beastie Bloom, or whatever that added fert was. This was the mistake. The pH argument really isn't all that valid because chasing the pH issue when your fert content is bad might help some, but won't save the plants. In fact, there appears to be so much damage that unless quick action of dumping the res, getting a ppm meter and using a level of fert that promotes health rather than destroy it, the plants will continue to die. PPM drives pH, not the other way around. Adjusting pH might cause plants to appear better initially, but in the end continued high loads of fert will kill plants. You guys seem to miss the point where the OP wrote they gave 6 tablespoons in 25 gallons, apparently doing this carelessly and had no clue what impact it might have. Now they know.
Dr. Who, if you are an organic farmer that's nice and all, but I'm not sure this qualifies you to make comment on hydro grows. No offense, but when I read your posts you insist on certain issues that seem to be based on what people on the web have always asserted: fix your pH and all problems will go away. Since ppm drives pH and not the other way around, please know that fert content in water creates the characteristic of pH. If a grower needs to fix pH, adjusting it isn't really a good answer, especially so in hydro where it's easier to dump the water and start over. Hydro growers should focus on ppm first, get that right for the age of the plant, and then check pH.
The plants were poisoned with high fert load. If the pH dropped too low, this will make matters worse and damage happen more quickly, but adjusting the pH isn't the best solution. In hydro a ppm meter might be more important than a pH meter. Get the ppm right and you probably don't have to worry about pH much (although keeping an eye on it is a good idea, just to be sure it's okay).
Soil grows don't usually need as much watching over as hydro does, especially using ebb and flow or aeroponics. If you want to grow in hydro, DWC is the way to go cuz you'll see fast growth without having to watch it 6 times a day. E&F and aero allow more oxygen to get to the roots which enhances nute uptake to a great degree and if you don't know what you're doing, you will kill your plants just as fast as poisoning them with high fert loads like 6 tablespoons.
 
Dr. Who, you're not entirely right. EC (ppm), i.e., fert content is what drives the pH level. It takes a lot of patience to read through this argumentative thread, but it looks to me that not only is the grower not helped much by this, but anyone who has the patience to read all of this and is naïve about growing, will be misinformed. This is so common on this site and other message boards, where persons who are aggressive writers make their argument in a way that it becomes impossible for naïve readers to be unable to determine fact from b.s. fiction.
The problem here is 6 tablespoons (!) of Beastie Bloom, or whatever that added fert was. This was the mistake. The pH argument really isn't all that valid because chasing the pH issue when your fert content is bad might help some, but won't save the plants. In fact, there appears to be so much damage that unless quick action of dumping the res, getting a ppm meter and using a level of fert that promotes health rather than destroy it, the plants will continue to die. PPM drives pH, not the other way around. Adjusting pH might cause plants to appear better initially, but in the end continued high loads of fert will kill plants. You guys seem to miss the point where the OP wrote they gave 6 tablespoons in 25 gallons, apparently doing this carelessly and had no clue what impact it might have. Now they know.
Dr. Who, if you are an organic farmer that's nice and all, but I'm not sure this qualifies you to make comment on hydro grows. No offense, but when I read your posts you insist on certain issues that seem to be based on what people on the web have always asserted: fix your pH and all problems will go away. Since ppm drives pH and not the other way around, please know that fert content in water creates the characteristic of pH. If a grower needs to fix pH, adjusting it isn't really a good answer, especially so in hydro where it's easier to dump the water and start over. Hydro growers should focus on ppm first, get that right for the age of the plant, and then check pH.
The plants were poisoned with high fert load. If the pH dropped too low, this will make matters worse and damage happen more quickly, but adjusting the pH isn't the best solution. In hydro a ppm meter might be more important than a pH meter. Get the ppm right and you probably don't have to worry about pH much (although keeping an eye on it is a good idea, just to be sure it's okay).
Soil grows don't usually need as much watching over as hydro does, especially using ebb and flow or aeroponics. If you want to grow in hydro, DWC is the way to go cuz you'll see fast growth without having to watch it 6 times a day. E&F and aero allow more oxygen to get to the roots which enhances nute uptake to a great degree and if you don't know what you're doing, you will kill your plants just as fast as poisoning them with high fert loads like 6 tablespoons.

Ph too high, nutrient lock out, low N besides and now you've slapped them with nasty ass beastie blooms because you thought it was low P....

Dude, you can hydro without a ppm/EC meter......BUT, pH is critical in hydro! No pHing is your numero uno problem!

GET A FUCKING pH PEN! Check pH everyday at lights on! Set it to 5.8 and let it rise to 6.2 and then drop it back to 5.8 and repeat!

Dump the res and start over! MONITOR and ADJUST the pH !



Nope, it ain't! Useful if you feel you need it but, surely not "king"....


What? You got a bug in your ass for me now?

After trying to make sense of your diatribe on reading the whole thread. You come out swinging at me for blaming pH for the whole thing? READ MY FIRST POST AGAIN! pH was the problem BEFORE the 6 TBL of beastie ! Beastie simply sealed the deal on how his plants look....

PPM does NOT decide pH (the contents of that ppm does affect whether it is more acid or base, moving the pH value respectively! This is a "buffering" factor) Temperature of the solution and the acid/base factor have effect on the pH. Not the deciding factor..

pH is decided by the amount of Hydrogen (hydronium) ions. So then, pH = -log(H3O) That is the formula given in basic chemistry class in HIGH SCHOOL!
What does pH stand for? "potential Hydrogen" - pH!


Look pollack. I've done this for decades. Just because I prefer organic soil growing. Sure as fuck don't mean I haven't done my share and more of hydro experience. I'll be the first to admit I don't have a whole lot in Coco and I tend to comment only on what I know about it. I never cared for it - my choice.

Oh, and BTW...DWC is nice, I liked Ebb quite well but, RDWC is the fastest and most effective hydro in my book!

I suggest you don't come in, swinging for the fence at my pitch......When you left your "bat" in the dugout !
 
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Just going to through my two cents in there and say OP don't be lazy, that dwc well should be emptied weekly, furthermore cut back on the nutes a bit as suggested by others you're causing build up which causes PH drop which causes lockout which causes, well let's just say you fucked up. We all do. Surprised you made it so far with this type of setup and no meters lmao. Anyway, follow Dr. Who's advice and those that agreed with him and your girls will be okay. These plants are resilient and can take a beating.
 
Just going to through my two cents in there and say OP don't be lazy, that dwc well should be emptied weekly, furthermore cut back on the nutes a bit as suggested by others you're causing build up which causes PH drop which causes lockout which causes, well let's just say you fucked up. We all do. Surprised you made it so far with this type of setup and no meters lmao. Anyway, follow Dr. Who's advice and those that agreed with him and your girls will be okay. These plants are resilient and can take a beating.


Will do ! I have been paying close attention to ph and dropping back on the nutes..
The plants don't look 100%.. or even 60 really, but I think they're going to pull through..
They're is new growth, green growth and the they are definately picking up some weight, even if it is a miniscule amount. Lol
I owe this one to you guys, and I won't be making these mistakes in the future!
 

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