Beneficial Microbes

[greasemonkeymann]

I will definitely keep you posted once we have something concrete to test on real life samples. Based on my experience I've grown out Trichoderma H. from a lyophilized sample and it takes about a week to have a viable culture. For some microbes it's recommend to do a subculture before inoculation to increase viability. So I'm not sure how efficient it is, depending on what state these microbes are in, to fully dump them into your hydro and expect a viable propagation.

whats your goal?
in a hydro setup you are feeding chelated chemicals and don't NEED microbes at all
i'm not sure what the allure of it is.
hydro should stay chemical.
organic should go with soil and natural inputs, using meal based nutrients rather than unpredictable chelated soluble nutrients
but that's the whole point.
the advantage of a hydro system is NOT needing any microbial interaction in order to have the nutrients available.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

yea my plants went through a hard last two weeks with an intense ph battle, lots of damaged leaves. i think that one might have actually been N deficiency- was flushing with plain water for a while. Slowly trimming and removing most of it as i see new growth. finally got things mostly stabilized though and back and full strength nutes, starting to see decent growth now.

I'm using Great White and Hydroguard (one of those strong bacillus strains) right now. I don't smell anything funky from the rez, so at least its not critical yet. Once the plant, the bacteria and the rez all stabalize it should hopefully go away. There's just been a lot of changes down there lately lol

you may want to look at the types of myco they use in great white...
they aren't the correct ones, also the count is reaaaally low compared to cheaper more effective alternatives
waaaay too much ecto myco, which is useless to cannabis

 

[Wedum Boise]

Even if you can figure out ideal incubation, activation, and innoculation for one of these single strain hydro microbes, you could save so much money on commercial inoculants.

Would you be open to send a sample of the root rot to us? We can shotgun sequence to see what species is causing that in your hydro.

 

[Wedum Boise]

whats your goal?
in a hydro setup you are feeding chelated chemicals and don't NEED microbes at all
i'm not sure what the allure of it is.
hydro should stay chemical.
organic should go with soil and natural inputs, using meal based nutrients rather than unpredictable chelated soluble nutrients
but that's the whole point.
the advantage of a hydro system is NOT needing any microbial interaction in order to have the nutrients available.

Does your grows always stay clean from a root rot in a hydro chemical set up? If you do get it how do attack it?

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Does your grows always stay clean from a root rot in a hydro chemical set up? If you do get it how do attack it?

ah..
sorry my friend, if you have any questions regarding organics, soil biology, and horticulture I can help
but hydroponics in a chemical setup I only know the basics on
there are LOTS of hydro-chem guys on this site though

 

[Yesdog]

whats your goal?
in a hydro setup you are feeding chelated chemicals and don't NEED microbes at all
i'm not sure what the allure of it is.
hydro should stay chemical.
organic should go with soil and natural inputs, using meal based nutrients rather than unpredictable chelated soluble nutrients
but that's the whole point.
the advantage of a hydro system is NOT needing any microbial interaction in order to have the nutrients available.

Greasemonkey! Still got your bennie-mite guy info handy for when i get into flowering

Yes, not needing microbes is pretty much the ideal situation. If everything is working perfectly, the microbes you add to your system should die pretty quickly. But, if there's something there for them to live on, there's stuff that other things can live on... so even without you adding anything, you might get a live rez. If you run sterile it makes it much harder for microbes to survive, but they're still there in low amounts- and the oxidizing effect of chlorine/H2O2 can interfere with certain root mechanics that rely on organic molecules in the root zone (root exudates, humics, enzymes from mych/trich etc). So one of the main mechanics it works on is by destroying organics in the solution itself. As I've recently learned, using chlorine with humics/fulvics can actually produce a carcinogenic gas due to the organic reaction it has- oxidizers do weird things to organics, as they should.

And great white, yea- i might as well be sprinkling pure gold onto the plants. And depending on how I use it, maybe only a handful of strains of microbes will survive, and maybe not flourish.

I didn't know about the ecto being useless to cannabis- i guess ive never read anything that really said it was good though. At least this run, I've been using it since germ for the endo, and using it in the rez+rootball for a bacterial inoculant. I'm 1000% interested in cheaper sources, but im pretty sure i dont want to mess with oxidizers. I also grow in a sealed tent with.... weird temps.... and I really don't want to breath in whatever gasses off.

But just like the predator mites- sometimes it's better to go with the natural cure vs more chemicals. Eventually you gotta smoke the stuff

 

[Yesdog]

Would you be open to send a sample of the root rot to us? We can shotgun sequence to see what species is causing that in your hydro.

I just might be able to help you there! I'll see if i can round up a few samples this week and see if i get anything im confident isnt contaminated. Any kind of preferred solution? Acids, borax, whatnot... really not sure how to preserve biomass that well... just sample and freeze? lol

EDIT: i do have access to dry ice

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Greasemonkey! Still got your bennie-mite guy info handy for when i get into flowering

Yes, not needing microbes is pretty much the ideal situation. If everything is working perfectly, the microbes you add to your system should die pretty quickly. But, if there's something there for them to live on, there's stuff that other things can live on... so even without you adding anything, you might get a live rez. If you run sterile it makes it much harder for microbes to survive, but they're still there in low amounts- and the oxidizing effect of chlorine/H2O2 can interfere with certain root mechanics that rely on organic molecules in the root zone (root exudates, humics, enzymes from mych/trich etc). So one of the main mechanics it works on is by destroying organics in the solution itself. As I've recently learned, using chlorine with humics/fulvics can actually produce a carcinogenic gas due to the organic reaction it has- oxidizers do weird things to organics, as they should.

And great white, yea- i might as well be sprinkling pure gold onto the plants. And depending on how I use it, maybe only a handful of strains of microbes will survive, and maybe not flourish.

I didn't know about the ecto being useless to cannabis- i guess ive never read anything that really said it was good though. At least this run, I've been using it since germ for the endo, and using it in the rez+rootball for a bacterial inoculant. I'm 1000% interested in cheaper sources, but im pretty sure i dont want to mess with oxidizers. I also grow in a sealed tent with.... weird temps.... and I really don't want to breath in whatever gasses off.

But just like the predator mites- sometimes it's better to go with the natural cure vs more chemicals. Eventually you gotta smoke the stuff

yea, it's really hard if not impossible to really give advice on a mixed system, especially if it's not soil based too.
side note-
those predator mites really do work man
this is the cleanest grow I've had since I started growing in the forest
the key is ya gotta pick the RIGHT mites to use
otherwise they just take off or hibernate

 

[Yesdog]

yea, it's really hard if not impossible to really give advice on a mixed system, especially if it's not soil based too.
side note-
those predator mites really do work man
this is the cleanest grow I've had since I started growing in the forest
the key is ya gotta pick the RIGHT mites to use
otherwise they just take off or hibernate

Yeah I'm pretty sure I gotta do predator mites when i switch to flower. Being semi-outdoors has reallllly sucked for me so far. I thought I was being good about keeping bugs out, but theres still like 2 or 3 dead moths after every rez change (using hotshots right now... speaking of chemicals...)

 

[Wedum Boise]

I just might be able to help you there! I'll see if i can round up a few samples this week and see if i get anything im confident isnt contaminated. Any kind of preferred solution? Acids, borax, whatnot... really not sure how to preserve biomass that well... just sample and freeze? lol

EDIT: i do have access to dry ice

Excellent! Let me confirm with my colleagues about the condition to send the samples in...we normally receive extracted DNA from flower through the mail but since this is plant roots it shouldn't be an issue. What state are you in?

 

[Yesdog]

Excellent! Let me confirm with my colleagues about the condition to send the samples in...we normally receive extracted DNA from flower through the mail but since this is plant roots it shouldn't be an issue. What state are you in?

Awesome!! And Im in Colorado

 

[platt]

And great white, yea- i might as well be sprinkling pure gold onto the plants. And depending on how I use it, maybe only a handful of strains of microbes will survive, and maybe not flourish.

I didn't know about the ecto being useless to cannabis- i guess ive never read anything that really said it was good though. At least this run, I've been using it since germ for the endo, and using it in the rez+rootball for a bacterial inoculant. I'm 1000% interested in cheaper sources, but im pretty sure i dont want to mess with oxidizers. I also grow in a sealed tent with.... weird temps.... and I really don't want to breath in whatever gasses off.

Sounds lovely cos you have in that mix more than one bacteria capable of producing hydrogen cyanide which is volatile above 24ºC. Its a matter of where you want it right?

 

[Yesdog]

Sounds lovely cos you have in that mix more than one bacteria capable of producing hydrogen cyanide which is volatile above 24ºC. Its a matter of where you want it right?

Yea, cyanide and sulfur dioxide can definitely be a concern. i just try to vent it before spending too much time in there lol

 

[Wedum Boise]

Awesome!! And Im in Colorado

The CSO and founder of our company Medicinal Genomics will be in Colorado next week. He would rather collect them live and transport the DNA back here. What is your email and I can introduce you two.

 

[Yesdog]

I will definitely keep you posted once we have something concrete to test on real life samples. Based on my experience I've grown out Trichoderma H. from a lyophilized sample and it takes about a week to have a viable culture. For some microbes it's recommend to do a subculture before inoculation to increase viability. So I'm not sure how efficient it is, depending on what state these microbes are in, to fully dump them into your hydro and expect a viable propagation.

Interesting, what did you do to propagate them? I think if you can get em propagated in an aerobic environment, i'd think it should be fine to just dump em in the rez. From what I read the root fungi are really sensitive anyways, so you lose a bunch during inoculation. But having a really healthy starting dose could definitely help. I wonder if there's some ideal way to like.... clone/germ in an alternative substrate that works great for the fungi, then transplanting the fully 'myceliated' clone into the system

 

[Wedum Boise]

Interesting, what did you do to propagate them? I think if you can get em propagated in an aerobic environment, i'd think it should be fine to just dump em in the rez. From what I read the root fungi are really sensitive anyways, so you lose a bunch during inoculation. But having a really healthy starting dose could definitely help. I wonder if there's some ideal way to like.... clone/germ in an alternative substrate that works great for the fungi, then transplanting the fully 'myceliated' clone into the system

I use about 5mls of liquid media to reconstitute and propagate the species. I let it sit room temp for about a week until the media starts to look turbid. Fortunately we have a qPCR machine that allows to detect how much of that specific DNA is in the media sample (takes a couple of hours) and we convert it to CFUs. I think one of the benefits here for a grower is that you can always do a subculture to continuously grow that species from the concentrated sample but you wouldn't want to wait to long so that original sample forms a disk that is hard to break apart.

 

[Yesdog]

I use about 5mls of liquid media to reconstitute and propagate the species. I let it sit room temp for about a week until the media starts to look turbid. Fortunately we have a qPCR machine that allows to detect how much of that specific DNA is in the media sample (takes a couple of hours) and we convert it to CFUs. I think one of the benefits here for a grower is that you can always do a subculture to continuously grow that species from the concentrated sample but you wouldn't want to wait to long so that original sample forms a disk that is hard to break apart.

Damn sorry vanished from the forum a bit. So the last few days have shown 0 sign of root rot- my rez is also at about 65 deg right now, so probably miserable conditions for propagating anything. My pH is starting to normalize, so I think what I might have been seeing was actually a microbial die-off. I do you use *some* sugars when inoculating the rez or roots (kelp), so I expect die-off when things are clean. Might have just been one hell of a die-off

@Wedum Boise so I think I might actually move on to trying to propagate bacillus strains. Maybe some trich if possible. What kind of media do you use for propagation? Also, do you think its possible without an autoclave? If I get autoclaved agar dishes and nutrient broth, should be safe enough right?

Or am I just potentially breeding the plague?

 

[Wedum Boise]

Damn sorry vanished from the forum a bit. So the last few days have shown 0 sign of root rot- my rez is also at about 65 deg right now, so probably miserable conditions for propagating anything. My pH is starting to normalize, so I think what I might have been seeing was actually a microbial die-off. I do you use *some* sugars when inoculating the rez or roots (kelp), so I expect die-off when things are clean. Might have just been one hell of a die-off

@Wedum Boise so I think I might actually move on to trying to propagate bacillus strains. Maybe some trich if possible. What kind of media do you use for propagation? Also, do you think its possible without an autoclave? If I get autoclaved agar dishes and nutrient broth, should be safe enough right?

Or am I just potentially breeding the plague?

I've been using Tryptic Soy Broth as a media and haven't had any issues propagating the strains. You may need an incubator to provide the right temperature for optimal growth, for example Bacillus subtilis growing temp is 30C in a nutrient agar or broth. As far as disposition and handling techniques use this link it's very helpful to minimize the risk of contamination.
https://media.vwr.com/emdocs/docs/scied/Bacteria_&_Fungi.pdf

How do you plan to inoculate your roots with the specific culture?

 

[Yesdog]

I've been using Tryptic Soy Broth as a media and haven't had any issues propagating the strains. You may need an incubator to provide the right temperature for optimal growth, for example Bacillus subtilis growing temp is 30C in a nutrient agar or broth. As far as disposition and handling techniques use this link it's very helpful to minimize the risk of contamination.
https://media.vwr.com/emdocs/docs/scied/Bacteria_&_Fungi.pdf

How do you plan to inoculate your roots with the specific culture?

For the bacillus strains I was just planning (my *big* plan lol) on breeding in nutrient broth, then brewing an aerated 24hr tea with (minimal, almost trace) kelp/humics. Pretty sure I don't feel comfortable adding large amounts of nutrient agar/broth to my rez, so was thinking I could change the food source over and hope the broth is diluted/consumed enough in the tea. Then fridge the tea for hopefully no more than a few days. I was reading about suspending cultures in PEG for long term, but I really have no idea what the peg would do to my rez in the end. I have noticed hydroguard is kinda viscous- maybe thats what they do.