RickyBobby26
Well-Known Member
You're the racist, Andy.
Donald Trump is an idiot. I've denounced him 100 times over as a racist loser.
How Bernie Sanders lost black voters
- Thread starter bearkat42
- Start date
Donald Trump is an idiot. I've denounced him 100 times over as a racist loser.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
which account was that, tbone?
RickyBobby26
Well-Known Member
Damn, that girl in your sig is good looking.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
"Black people" are traditionally conservative? Do you mean socially conservative or fiscally conservative? Are you saying the black delegation are monolithic and conservative christian? Umm, no not any more than anybody other group. Some are, some aren't. I think you are making a mistake in this sweeping statement.
What did Bernie do to gain the black vote? Hillary invested in offices, phones, salaried representatives in many areas where Bernie was not present. Those staffed offices recruited volunteers to get out the vote when the time came. Also, she spent time with leaders in black communities and has been doing so for years before this election. Bernie had one year and a much leaner organization. This is not criticism, just pointing out the advantages of time and money when it comes to winning elections. I also agree that Bernie did not pander to the black vote. He also did not gain it.
That super predator line came while Hillary was first lady in 1994 or something thereabouts. She said she was wrong and she apologized for that remark. The intangible that Hillary has with the community can be summed up with these words from an article from NPR: "I didn't like the way [Obama] was being treated, and I don't like the way she's being treated," 65-year-old Queen Lewis told NPR's Sam Sanders recently, in the run-up to the South Carolina primary, where Clinton won by almost 50 points.
I'm not claiming to understand why Bernie did not gain the black vote. @bearkat42 has been giving you his perspective and it resonates as true to me. It is indisputable that Bernie did not gain the democratic party's black voter's backing in anywhere near the numbers Hillary did. I'm just putting down what I think happened. For people to agree, disagree and maybe help me understand better.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
You are right about the effect of those crime bills. The one that passed during Clinton's term was passed with the approval of 2/3 of the black caucus, so there is some justification in the idea that these bills were not thought to be necessarily racist bills at the time. But yep, the fucking War On Drugs has been a disaster in the way the justice system has used it to incarcerate black men.
And you are right in that the Clintons aren't seen as the reason why the justice system has used it to incarcerate black men. Maybe because they aren't the ones who are incarcerating black men at 6 times the rate as white men even though the arrest rates about the same between the two groups. Maybe its not simple enough of a problem to understand by just observing the effect.
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Ace Yonder
Well-Known Member
I actually think Damon Young sums it up pretty well here: (http://verysmartbrothas.com/maybe-black-people-arent-feeling-bernie-sanders-because-were-tired-of-people-saying-we-should-be/)
"Also, who’s to say we (Black voters) aren’t looking out for our best interests by supporting Clinton? Maybe Sanders is the best option in a vacuum. But maybe we’re a bit more politically shrewd than we’re given credit for; a bit more in tune with the idea that, for myriad reasons, Clinton just has a much better chance of beating Donald Trump in the general election than Sanders would. Maybe we’re fully aware Clinton doesn’t deserve our vote, but we’ve done the mental calculus necessary to grudgingly accept her as maybe not the best option, but the strongest one. Because maybe supporting someone we don’t like who can beat someone we hate is a bit smarter than supporting someone we kinda like who can’t. And, well, maybe we’re just as turned off by the hipster racism exhibited by many fervent Sanders supporters as we are with the palpable racism from many of Trump’s. There are many very valid reasons for Black people not to support Sanders. (Just as there are many not to support Clinton.) Us not knowing whats good for us isn’t one of them."
"Also, who’s to say we (Black voters) aren’t looking out for our best interests by supporting Clinton? Maybe Sanders is the best option in a vacuum. But maybe we’re a bit more politically shrewd than we’re given credit for; a bit more in tune with the idea that, for myriad reasons, Clinton just has a much better chance of beating Donald Trump in the general election than Sanders would. Maybe we’re fully aware Clinton doesn’t deserve our vote, but we’ve done the mental calculus necessary to grudgingly accept her as maybe not the best option, but the strongest one. Because maybe supporting someone we don’t like who can beat someone we hate is a bit smarter than supporting someone we kinda like who can’t. And, well, maybe we’re just as turned off by the hipster racism exhibited by many fervent Sanders supporters as we are with the palpable racism from many of Trump’s. There are many very valid reasons for Black people not to support Sanders. (Just as there are many not to support Clinton.) Us not knowing whats good for us isn’t one of them."
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I think you make a good point. But Bernie babies hate pragmatism.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
bearkat42
Well-Known Member
Some of the most undeservedly arrogant people with whom I've ever encountered.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Ace Yonder
Well-Known Member
The more people who vote for Stein, the more likely it is that Trump wins the election because she won't pull ANY Trump supporters and will only pull numbers from Hillary. Is that really the result you want?
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
You should vote for Stein then.
Ace Yonder
Well-Known Member
I think you're confusing me with a Trump supporter. I have been for Hillary since the start.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
No, you're the one who is confused. I would NEVER vote for Hillary Clinton. I'm just saying, if you don't want Trump to become president, you should vote for Jill Stein so as not to split the votes that are against him.
Ace Yonder
Well-Known Member
Yeah... not gonna happen. Unlike you I actually feel like winning this election, not throwing away my vote on an impossible fantasy. I would vote for Hillary over Stein anyways, Hillary is the better candidate. I want a president who knows how to get shit done, and Jill Stein just doesn't have the chops.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Yeah good point, Hillary (Wall Street shill) is really good at turning nice peaceful countries into warzones and pushing corporate statehood trade deals on less militarized countries...
Jill just doesn't have the chops to get shit like that done.
Ace Yonder
Well-Known Member
Where are we at war that was a "nice peaceful country" before Hillary changed that? And you can call her a wall street shill all you want, her connections are what allows her to leverage power in a way that people unable or unwilling to make concessions to earn those connections will never be able to. You can do what it takes and play the system to your advantage or you can get eaten by the system. Jill Stein would get eaten by the system. Pragmatism isn't a four letter word.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Nice distortion dumbass. I said she turned such places into warzones, your reply demands that I answer as if the US is in a state of declared war in order to quantify. This is your go-to tactic and it just shows how facile your approach is to the explication of arguments. Why should I take you seriously?
Now would you like to know which countries became warzones while she was Sec-state? They were not only nice, but also peaceful. Libya for example was a veritable utopia. Syria was a well developed, secular state, even managing to avoid antagonizing its own Kurdish population. To be fair though, I won't blame Clinton for the occasional "Al Qaeda in Iraq" militant incursion in that country. I could go on.
She doesn't leverage power from her corporate overlords. She shills for them. You don't get ahead or get eaten, you eat others or get eaten. It's the American way. She's the status quo.