Are cobs worth it?

bottletoke

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info everyone!
I'm gonna try 2 kits for shits and giggles, I can't go full out because I just spent a fortune on a gavita upgrade at my place.....and I still need 3 more so it's not even done lol.
I'll see how these led's treat me and if everything goes like it should then I might be selling these de hps's. If that's the case then I'll be real happy cuz the resale on gavita's are awesome!

Baby steps!
 

guod

Well-Known Member
i just cant wrap my head around pg 16 of that study

ok i see that the cree design edges the gavita in PPF/W at 1.82 vs 1.72, less than 10% better

so how in the heck do they replace the PPFD of 1000W with only 500W of LED?
the Answer sits in this table...
15% powerloss in the IR range and the rest can be calculated in the other parts of the spectrum.
10% more eff. in the orange/red part.. and so on
cree ppf.JPG

am i reading this right? are they running those leds at 1050ma?
nope... about 950 mA from my calculation, all in series.
 

Airwalker16

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info everyone!
I'm gonna try 2 kits for shits and giggles, I can't go full out because I just spent a fortune on a gavita upgrade at my place.....and I still need 3 more so it's not even done lol.
I'll see how these led's treat me and if everything goes like it should then I might be selling these de hps's. If that's the case then I'll be real happy cuz the resale on gavita's are awesome!

Baby steps!
DO A SIDE BY BSIDE. It's very needed!
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info everyone!
I'm gonna try 2 kits for shits and giggles, I can't go full out because I just spent a fortune on a gavita upgrade at my place.....and I still need 3 more so it's not even done lol.
I'll see how these led's treat me and if everything goes like it should then I might be selling these de hps's. If that's the case then I'll be real happy cuz the resale on gavita's are awesome!

Baby steps!
Ill by your DE fixtures. Lets try to make this happen by the weekend!!! Their unreal bro!!!!!
 

BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
the Answer sits in this table...
15% powerloss in the IR range and the rest can be calculated in the other parts of the spectrum.
10% more eff. in the orange/red part.. and so on
does not compute. when would IR ever be considered as "PPF" in the first place

"PPFD" should be the same PPF applied over an area
 

Tstat

Well-Known Member
Been reading this all morning. Interesting shit, for sure. I have been growing with HID for 30 years and have closely followed the tech changes in indoor growing. I started in soil with a metal halide and thought it was wonderful. From there I discovered hydro and HPS lighting.

I finally started to think seriously about LED lighting when I started to hear about cobs. Well, I am not someone with a ton of disposable cash, so I didn't think I could get into the cob game. It does cost a lot, but I found a solution for my situation.

I am sourcing DIY 2 light cob panels from someone here and I am buying one at a time.

As I get them, they get added to the flowering room. I plan on replacing 1600 (sometimes 2000) watts of HPS with these Vero cobs. I have already replaced my 600 watt HPS with 3 panels. I have a 4th on the way and when it arrives I am going to put the 600 back in and get rid of the 1000. My total SF is 21 (7x3) and I plan on having 8 or 9 panels.

So, it's been about 4 weeks for these girls under the mailboxes. It's five Apollo 11's and a GSC.


This A11 pheno is a really fast maturer and doesn't yield a ton. I don't know what GPW I get as I run continuous harvests- 6 at a time. I will say that the plants are doing great and really seem to be responding well to the cobs.

I am truly excited by these new lights. The temp in my room has gone down by 3-4 degrees already. And in the end I will be running half the wattage as I used to. My main objectives were to lower my energy consumption and reduce summertime heat. So far, so good!

If you want to see more, I am posting a journal here. I am hoping to help people who are interested in cob LEDs replacing HID, as well as get expert advice for those who really know their shit about cob LED grows!
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Been reading this all morning. Interesting shit, for sure. I have been growing with HID for 30 years and have closely followed the tech changes in indoor growing. I started in soil with a metal halide and thought it was wonderful. From there I discovered hydro and HPS lighting.

I finally started to think seriously about LED lighting when I started to hear about cobs. Well, I am not someone with a ton of disposable cash, so I didn't think I could get into the cob game. It does cost a lot, but I found a solution for my situation.

I am sourcing DIY 2 light cob panels from someone here and I am buying one at a time.

As I get them, they get added to the flowering room. I plan on replacing 1600 (sometimes 2000) watts of HPS with these Vero cobs. I have already replaced my 600 watt HPS with 3 panels. I have a 4th on the way and when it arrives I am going to put the 600 back in and get rid of the 1000. My total SF is 21 (7x3) and I plan on having 8 or 9 panels.

So, it's been about 4 weeks for these girls under the mailboxes. It's five Apollo 11's and a GSC.


This A11 pheno is a really fast maturer and doesn't yield a ton. I don't know what GPW I get as I run continuous harvests- 6 at a time. I will say that the plants are doing great and really seem to be responding well to the cobs.

I am truly excited by these new lights. The temp in my room has gone down by 3-4 degrees already. And in the end I will be running half the wattage as I used to. My main objectives were to lower my energy consumption and reduce summertime heat. So far, so good!

If you want to see more, I am posting a journal here. I am hoping to help people who are interested in cob LEDs replacing HID, as well as get expert advice for those who really know their shit about cob LED grows!
Post a link to your journal, I'll follow you.
 

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
UVA & UVB both increase potency.
Studies show a consistent 3-5%.
If you try a Hotrilux Blue you will see it apparently by eye. Same with CMH.
Or try a reptile bulb producing UVB.
Using both together will give you the best results. UVC is not good.
source please....

I am aware of One study that shows ONLY THC-9 being increased, maybe not even necessarily the acidic form. @Sativied posts this link even and what was sam's answer?

Second, just a few months ago SC labs showed that the top 20 winning entries in the 2015 Emerald Cup were not all all of the highest Thc measured in over 400+ samples, but the Terpinoid content measured with a Mean 2.5% higher than the average entry.

and I think Sativied will even slightly agree here, that increased. Terp profiles have not been identified with isolation of UV light.

So this whole UVB/A is better, produces more Thc, well ok, but so what? This isn't some chiseled in stone fact that increased uvb is creating more powerful flowers in the absence of anything else.

Often I get more compliments on the supposedly UVB absent strains that occupy some of my spaces. Because something else is going on undoubtedly, like increased Terp profiles and ultimate Thc-A content might end up having very little to do with final potency without a key.
Just my $.02
 

testiclees

Well-Known Member
source please....

I am aware of One study that shows ONLY THC-9 being increased, maybe not even necessarily the acidic form. @Sativied posts this link even and what was sam's answer?

Second, just a few months ago SC labs showed that the top 20 winning entries in the 2015 Emerald Cup were not all all of the highest Thc measured in over 400+ samples, but the Terpinoid content measured with a Mean 2.5% higher than the average entry.

and I think Sativied will even slightly agree here, that increased. Terp profiles have not been identified with isolation of UV light.

So this whole UVB/A is better, produces more Thc, well ok, but so what? This isn't some chiseled in stone fact that increased uvb is creating more powerful flowers in the absence of anything else.

Often I get more compliments on the supposedly UVB absent strains that occupy some of my spaces. Because something else is going on undoubtedly, like increased Terp profiles and ultimate Thc-A content might end up having very little to do with final potency without a key.
Just my $.02

Good points. Lionizing THC % is ridiculous. Anyone who has smoked a variety of strains will find favorites according to their experience not necessarily correlated with high THC.

I use a UVB bulb during flower and I believe it has an effect on potency. I dont think it's critical but i like to dose with a measure of UVB under the general theory that it's an input the plant responds to in nature.

I also wonder about the merits of the latest, straight fire, 20%+THC strain explosion. In other areas of horticulture theres always hype for the new stuff but the classics are still classics. In camellia, magnolia, japanese maple there are thousands of cultivars same with apples and wheat.

Growing the latest fire doesn't make you a sex panther. sex-panther.jpg
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
@Sativied posts this link even and what was sam's answer?
That was really in a different context (one of the hypothesis about the relation between high thc landraces and high uvb areas would be considered more plausible if uvb does increase thc levels, it not it doesn't make the hypothesis less likely). It's a bit of a shame it was taken out of context prematurely as it wasn't really about increasing thc with uv.

The 1987 research Is the "further research Pate mentioned in 1983:
"The damaging effects of UV-B radiation have apparently affected the amounts of ultraviolet-absorbing secondary compounds in some plants. A similar role for Δ9 tetrahydrocannabinol may explain the high levels of this compound in Cannabis from areas of intense ambient UV-B. Further research is needed to determine whether UV-B radiation serves only as a selection pressure or if UV-B-induced stress may also directly stimulate production."

The tests from 1987 do not disprove the selection pressure (that was the context), but they don't disprove all possibilites for stimulating secondary metabolites production in cannabis either. Good attempt but should not be considered the definitive answer and should not stop others from experimenting 30 years later. As I have no doubt Sam would agree with. If you do a proper clean test he will surely be very interested. More and specifically better testing is necessary. Here was a half-decent start https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=260046

and I think Sativied will even slightly agree here, that increased. Terp profiles have not been identified with isolation of UV light.
In a more nuanced context I would agree yes. An increase in terpenes in cannabis has to my knowledge not been indentified by uv treatments. It may very well even have negative effects depending on the specific terpene or uv treatment.

However, cut and paste from a private discussion:

Several studies show widely varying results per species and cultivar, and the response differs per the severity and the dynamics of [uv] stress exposure, as well as other environmental parameters.
From: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/254218759_UV-B-Induced_Secondary_Plant_Metabolites_-_Potential_Benefits_for_Plant_and_Human_Health

Also several studies showing an increase of some of the for us well-known terpenes like limonene and pinene. As well as stimulating pathways like MEP.

Widely varying results from different methods and intensities. Acclimation with increasing levels, acute uvb stress, signaling with low intensities. Even differences depending on whether the plant received UVA prior or during the UVB treatment. Many if not all of the uvb tubes used in cannabis tests produce a lot more uva than uvb. Glass is often also transparent for uva opposed to uvb. Nowadays narrowband uvb is more accessible, like the ones used for skin therapy.

A lack of differences in results likely says more about the methods used than what's possible with cannabis. It seems extremely unlikely secondary metabolite production in cannabis happens to not be affected by uvb one way or the other. Besides testing for cannabinoids and preferably terpenes too, one would have to determine and try different amounts of uvb in mw/cm2 or mJ/cm2 to exclude the feasibility.

Let me repeat that is extremely unlikely the plant species so rich in secondary metabolites production (flavonoids, cannabinoids, terpenes), cannabis, happens to be not affected, and as research for many species show, it can go either way largely depending on the type of uv treatment. Flavonoids are very likely affected, the rest needs to be tested, which is probably more about how and when they are affected than if they can be affected.

image.png
As you can see, the amount of cannabinoid may indirectly affect the influence on terpenes. Higher thc varieties could very well be less affected making it hard to compare results.

If it were easy to do, and boost the thc level with something like 2%, from 19-21, that 10% increase can make a lot of difference in a competive market some day, already does at some shops and dispensaries. For people making thc concentrates it would really be a no brainer. But then UV can reduce biomass, if it does that least in trichs but more in leaves, stems etc, the net result is a higher THC percentage but possibly the same or less THC in weight.

http://th-led.en.alibaba.com/product/60248983082-222450374/Psoriasis_Skin_Therapy_64_chip_UV_LED_COB_Module_308nm_310nm.html
Just a tad pricey...

Edit: and yes, I agree THC alone isn't everything. It's the cocktail that matters, which I do think can be influenced, but with so many varying results it may be hard to pinpoint exactly what's best.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
From the other thread,
Glad you replied to the other thread...I think I agree mostly and wasn't taking it out of context at all, unless you want to agree that the framework from most parties has never been "in" context to begin with.
For the record, I didn't say you did... was not an accusation or anything. The specific context was initially thc history, landrace chemotype in relation to high uvb areas. The influence of farmers vs evolution/nature. It was not specifically about or meant for people wanting to increase thc in all cannabis nor to be interpreted that it's not possible.
 

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
From the other thread, For the record, I didn't say you did... was not an accusation or anything. The specific context was initially thc history, landrace chemotype in relation to high uvb areas. The influence of farmers vs evolution/nature. It was not specifically about or meant for people wanting to increase thc in all cannabis nor to be interpreted that it's not possible.
just that wasn't the original intent of the findings correct? thanks for replying back!
 

Hybridway

Well-Known Member
Just wanted to say, I think this is a great thread. Tons of good info for facts & opinions.
source please....

I am aware of One study that shows ONLY THC-9 being increased, maybe not even necessarily the acidic form. @Sativied posts this link even and what was sam's answer?

Second, just a few months ago SC labs showed that the top 20 winning entries in the 2015 Emerald Cup were not all all of the highest Thc measured in over 400+ samples, but the Terpinoid content measured with a Mean 2.5% higher than the average entry.

and I think Sativied will even slightly agree here, that increased. Terp profiles have not been identified with isolation of UV light.

So this whole UVB/A is better, produces more Thc, well ok, but so what? This isn't some chiseled in stone fact that increased uvb is creating more powerful flowers in the absence of anything else.

Often I get more compliments on the supposedly UVB absent strains that occupy some of my spaces. Because something else is going on undoubtedly, like increased Terp profiles and ultimate Thc-A content might end up having very little to do with final potency without a key.
Just my $.02
I saw studies that didn't really seam super official but we're studies all the same. Here's one.
http://medicalmarijuanagrowing.blogspot.com/?m=1
I'm not much of a linker to studies. But Ive Seen a few others as well. My info is mostly based on my experience w/ using the Hotrilux Blues in flower. They are very expensive & I bought 3, 1000's & 2, 600's to stagger & cross their spectrum throughout the room after experimenting with a 600 in early flower & late.
Huge differences in color, visually frosty as hell, very potent too. This discussion is making me want to actually have the H-Blue bud tested against the regular.
I agree with you big time on increased Terps through means of full spectrum growing. If that's what you were saying?
I do believe that white COBs give off an awesome full spectrum that increases all aspects of growth & raises terp profiles big time. Therefor making COB bud awesome & especially enhanced COB bud.
I'm heavily medicated so excuse me if I sound a bit off. Can't think of the words I want to use. The full spectrum does excite all receptors in the plant & makes for some bomb tree. I cannot link proof to this but I'm sure someone can.
@PurpleBuz , maybe we can get along & you can look up links to back my theories & experiences? We are all on the same team ya know!
White light is worth it & COBs make it all easier.
Are they getting any closer to having a higher CRI & better efficiency yet?
Oh, great info @Sativied !
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
I'm currently running head to head comparisons of COB LED and HID lighting.

I'm running 5400W, total wattage ballasts included, of 860W CDM Allstart lamps on magnetic ballasts, perhaps not the very latest in HID tech but solid in terms of spectrum response. This lights a rack of 144 sq ft.

I'm also running 5400W of Cree CXB3590 3500K CD BIN 72V chips at 54W each. This also lights a 144sq ft rack.

Early results show that the LED light source is so much more powerful than the HID that the plants were shocked when they went into bloom. They had problems the first three weeks of bloom and some never recovered.

That said, my average yields still went up. I had a new personal best; one plant hit 32oz, up from a previous best of 26oz.

Quality is obviously better; tighter, denser, heavier nugs with more frost. No one disagrees with the assessment that it's also more potent.

COB LED is better. It's better than blurple LED panels as well; in head to head tests, my CXB powered modules drastically outperformed them, growing healthier plants at similar rates with less than half the watts used and heat generated.

From this perspective, all the complaints about COB LED lacking UV light smack of sour grapes; grow a crop under them and then tell me they need more frost, lol

I'd say HID lighting is for streetlights but my city is replacing them with... yep, you guessed it- COB LED! Light bulbs are sooooo twentieth century. If you're still growing under HID, it's time to join the new Millennium.

At this point, it's no longer a question of whether LED is better, it's more a discussion of how the new tech can be most effectively and efficiently deployed.

Just so the purists can't cry foul, I'm also testing a new 1000W class low frequency square wave ballast and I'll be running an 860W CDM Allstart lamp on it. We'll see if the improved performance of this combo will keep it competitive with COB LED.
Just a caveat off that, the .2-.3% of UV From a Gavitta is kinda pointless, if it really was that big of a deal you would think that those growers would have to supplement UV since there's pretty much none coming out.
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
I'm heavily medicated so excuse me if I sound a bit off. Can't think of the words I want to use. The full spectrum does excite all receptors in the plant & makes for some bomb tree. I cannot link proof to this but I'm sure someone can.


@PurpleBuz , maybe we can get along & you can look up links to back my theories & experiences? We are all on the same team ya kn
happy to get along and exchange information, but I won't be your link bitch and I can't be on the same team that insists neem oil, pesticide tainted flowers are A OK for anybody to inhale.
 

Hybridway

Well-Known Member
happy to get along and exchange information, but I won't be your link bitch and I can't be on the same team that insists neem oil, pesticide tainted flowers are A OK for anybody to inhale.
Not asking you to be my link-bitch. Asking that you consider things I say to be legit & rather then trying to find data that proves me wrong, maybe consider the opposite as I do speak from experience allot & do want to pass useful information.
The data n links you pull up are useful & sometimes are big contributions I bet. If you teamed up with some hands on knowledge then you'd be a huge info source that could be counted on.
As for Neem. No one wants to spray it on their crop. Shit happens & when it does we must find the safest alternatives for our patients. All natural plant oils is allot safer then pesticides wouldn't you say? With the entire inter web at your disposal, one would think you'd have found me a better alternative? But bashing me & telling people I pesticide my crop doesn't help me or anyone else. Geeze, it's like 4 months later & I still see you n your boy Abiqua dogging me for using Quantum Apocalypse on my bud when you'z are attempting to put me down (shoulder shrugs). I put it on at half strength too. The bud came out great as opposed to throwing out 4 lbs. like you might suggest. I smoke it to this day.

@Growmau5 , I saw you light called the Canopy! Super mad crazy PROPS! Just freaking awesome! Now, you're making me wanna build.
Probobly a dumb question that has been answered somewhere else but Do you build for others to turn a profit at all? I'm sure if you did, you'd be killing it. You are seriously talented bro!
:clap:
 
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