Union Membership and Inequality

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Are you better off with a $30/hr job or a $50/hr job where the company is looking for land next to a sea port in Asia?
This is another example of your bass-ackwards thinking. In your post, you contend that wages would rise if jobs were non-union. Yet the graphs put up by @Padawanbater2 show just the opposite. Your post is another example of how ideology clouds rational thought. Look at the facts. Wages have gone down with lower rates of participation in unions. More factually, I would restate your post as:

Are you better off with a $30/hour job in a union with rights protected under collective bargaining agreements or a $20 an hour job where the company is continually looking for somebody to replace you with a lower wage earner?
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Maybe if they didn't pay the CEO 500x's what an employee on the floor makes, they could stay in America
Maybe they should bring back those 1950's tax rates. Back then, over 250,000 a year was 90%...and not many made over 250K. Today they could make it 10 million and soon nobody would make over that...

I don't think anybody would seriously suffer being held down to 10 million...do you? And it's bull shit to say it would hurt investment...those people invest in the Cayman Islands or hold onto the money like the banks did after the 2008 TARP.
 

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
Maybe if they didn't pay the CEO 500x's what an employee on the floor makes, they could stay in America
That sounds good but it really doesn't make a difference. A large company has 1 CEO and thousands of employees.

A good CEO is worth every penny. They're not all good. Some suck and they still get that huge check. But a good one can make decisions that make the company a lot of money.

How much more should they make?

In reality companies compete for them. Much like football coaches in the NFL and college sports. All teams have players working hard and who have talent. Some coaches are better and those teams win.
 

doublejj

Well-Known Member
That sounds good but it really doesn't make a difference. A large company has 1 CEO and thousands of employees.

A good CEO is worth every penny. They're not all good. Some suck and they still get that huge check. But a good one can make decisions that make the company a lot of money.

How much more should they make?

In reality companies compete for them. Much like football coaches in the NFL and college sports. All teams have players working hard and who have talent. Some coaches are better and those teams win.
But they can find cheaper players in China....
 

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
If a CEO is really worth every penny, he should be keeping the jobs here in the us....
A part of this has to be blamed on the American consumer. Today in most cases and 30 years ago in all cases what ever product someone was buying they could find an import or a domestically made product to suit whatever their needs be.

Americans time and time again chose to buy the creeper imported version. That isn't something management can overcome
 

b4ds33d

Well-Known Member
A part of this has to be blamed on the American consumer. Today in most cases and 30 years ago in all cases what ever product someone was buying they could find an import or a domestically made product to suit whatever their needs be.

Americans time and time again chose to buy the creeper imported version. That isn't something management can overcome
the assertion that this is a problem Americans have and exists nowhere else makes you sound like a smug asshole.
 

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
the assertion that this is a problem Americans have and exists nowhere else makes you sound like a smug asshole.
Well I can hardly blame the British or Brazilian consumer for buying the Chinese import that was half the price as the American import.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
That sounds good but it really doesn't make a difference. A large company has 1 CEO and thousands of employees.

A good CEO is worth every penny. They're not all good. Some suck and they still get that huge check. But a good one can make decisions that make the company a lot of money.

How much more should they make?

In reality companies compete for them. Much like football coaches in the NFL and college sports. All teams have players working hard and who have talent. Some coaches are better and those teams win.
A part of this has to be blamed on the American consumer. Today in most cases and 30 years ago in all cases what ever product someone was buying they could find an import or a domestically made product to suit whatever their needs be.

Americans time and time again chose to buy the creeper imported version. That isn't something management can overcome
Oh godammit. Blame everybody but the perpetrator. Blame the student at Trump University for being taken in by the fraud. Blame the consumer for over-payed CEO's. @ThickStemz you are incredibly dense and uninformed. Once again you are lazy and wrong.

A major study of 1500 large companies in the US found performance is negatively correlated to CEO pay. In other words, the more a CEO is payed, the worse the company does. This has been noted several other times in other studies but the link to the abstract below cites a study with a large enough sample set that there can be no doubt about the result. Reason for this low performance? My take on it is that boards of directors are stuffed with cronies and butt buddies -- so-called elite businessmen -- and they are happy to pay each other wacked out high salaries then head to the golf course. Its not the consumer or the worker at fault for poor management and oversight.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1572085
Abstract:
We find evidence that Chief Executive Officer (CEO) pay is negatively related to future stock returns for periods up to three years after sorting on pay. For example, firms that pay their CEOs in the top ten percent of excess pay earn negative abnormal returns over the next three years of approximately -8%. The effect is stronger for CEOs who receive higher incentive pay relative to their peers and stronger for CEOs with greater tenure. Our results appear to be driven by high-pay related CEO overconfidence that leads to shareholder wealth losses from activities such as overinvestment and value-destroying mergers and acquisitions

The Highest-Paid CEOs Are The Worst Performers, New Study Says
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/06/16/the-highest-paid-ceos-are-the-worst-performers-new-study-says/#2f83bf8f293a

Cooper and two professors, one at Purdue and the other at the University of Cambridge, have studied a large data set of the 1,500 companies with the biggest market caps, supplied by a firm called Execucomp. They also looked at pay and company performance in three-year periods over a relatively long time span, from 1994-2013, and compared what are known as firms’ “abnormal” performance, meaning a company’s revenues and profits as compared with like companies in their fields. They were startled to find that the more CEOs got paid, the worse their companies did.

the study shows that as a group, the companies run by the CEOS who were paid at the top 10% of the scale, had the worst performance. How much worse? The firms returned 10% less to their shareholders than did their industry peers.

Wall Street is its own union shop and the ticket into that union is most often an inheritance from parents into that country club. They take care of their own whether they earn it or not. Sounds like featherbedding to me. This practice among union workers is rightly scorned but the real problem lies at the top.
 
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b4ds33d

Well-Known Member
Oh godammit. Blame everybody but the perpetrator. Blame the student at Trump University for being taken in by the fraud. Blame the consumer for over-payed CEO's. @ThickStemz you are incredibly dense and uninformed. Once again you are lazy and wrong.

A major study of 1500 large companies in the US found performance is negatively correlated to CEO pay. In other words, the more a CEO is payed, the worse the company does. This has been noted several other times in other studies but the link to the abstract below cites a study with a large enough sample set that there can be no doubt about the result. Reason for this low performance? My take on it is that boards of directors are stuffed with cronies and butt buddies -- so-called elite businessmen -- and they are happy to pay each other wacked out high salaries then head to the golf course. Its not the consumer or the worker at fault for poor management and oversight.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1572085
Abstract:
We find evidence that Chief Executive Officer (CEO) pay is negatively related to future stock returns for periods up to three years after sorting on pay. For example, firms that pay their CEOs in the top ten percent of excess pay earn negative abnormal returns over the next three years of approximately -8%. The effect is stronger for CEOs who receive higher incentive pay relative to their peers and stronger for CEOs with greater tenure. Our results appear to be driven by high-pay related CEO overconfidence that leads to shareholder wealth losses from activities such as overinvestment and value-destroying mergers and acquisitions

The Highest-Paid CEOs Are The Worst Performers, New Study Says
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/06/16/the-highest-paid-ceos-are-the-worst-performers-new-study-says/#2f83bf8f293a

Cooper and two professors, one at Purdue and the other at the University of Cambridge, have studied a large data set of the 1,500 companies with the biggest market caps, supplied by a firm called Execucomp. They also looked at pay and company performance in three-year periods over a relatively long time span, from 1994-2013, and compared what are known as firms’ “abnormal” performance, meaning a company’s revenues and profits as compared with like companies in their fields. They were startled to find that the more CEOs got paid, the worse their companies did.

the study shows that as a group, the companies run by the CEOS who were paid at the top 10% of the scale, had the worst performance. How much worse? The firms returned 10% less to their shareholders than did their industry peers.

Wall Street is its own union shop and the ticket into that union is most often an inheritance from parents into that country club. They take care of their own whether they earn it or not. Sounds like featherbedding to me. This practice among union workers is rightly scorned but the real problem lies at the top.
oh you motherfucker. don't come in here, shoutin and trying to confuse us with parlour tricks like facts and truth. we'll have none of that sir!
:bigjoint:
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
oh you motherfucker. don't come in here, shoutin and trying to confuse us with parlour tricks like facts and truth. we'll have none of that sir!
:bigjoint:
But, But, the study is two years old. Why isn't this common knowledge by now? Oh, I know, it's the low wage worker in China. They are pulling the wool over our eyes. Or maybe it's those dam Mexican immigrants. Yes sir a wall, that's what we need to make things right.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
High pay CEO's are worth every penny, my ass. To every union busting, stock option sucking, bonus stroking CEO, there is only one answer:
 
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