Jesus Myth & Why It Endures

Dalek Supreme

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
schnooby said:
there are alot of reasons why trying to explain faith or religion as a self reinforcing reward based activity in neurochemical terms is just fatally flawed.

First, reasoning backwards that the good feeling produced by an activity somehow negates the rational basis for the activity,or explains it away, is a philosophical slippery slope descending into a blackhole. You could similarly frame every human behavior in terms of the biochemical reward system that accompanies the activity, and THAT is madness.


Second, even if you could effectively argue that people engage in religious behaviors for the feel good pay off that doesnt address the likelihood that many religious, spiritual people have varying levels of these chemicals or maybe even none at all in the case of dysfunction. How do those biological variables impqct the thesis that religion or spirituality only exist because of feel good chemicals in the brain.


I see it as a desperate attempt at explaining things away without realizing that its a snake eating itself, as all human behaviors could be similarly reduced to nothing more than animalistic basic primal urges which are encourages by neurochemical orgasms.
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Fact: People get addicted to drugs.

Fact: These same drugs chemically release Dopamine which get people high.

Fact: People get thought addictions like gambling, and porn which they release Dopamine themselves.

Fact: You have to disprove above with evidence, and not conjecture.
 
Dalek Supreme

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
ThickStemz said:
If jesus didn't exist then how did st Paul stop roaming about killing early Christians, go blind then regain his sight the moment a priest of THE LORD put his hands on him?

If there was no Jesus then how come the muslims even believe He was real? They're all going to hell because they have been mislead by the adversary that Jesus didn't get it right. If He didn't exist, then the muslims wouldn't think he was wrong.

If there was no Jesus, then why did Philo of Alexandria mention Him, as the first born Son of God

Plus, you got Josephus saying he did 10 thousand miracles. Tacitus recorded his deeds.

Friend, Satan has you by the balls. I hope you get free.
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There's two Pauls. The nonpseudographical Epistles Paul, and the fictional Book of Acts Paul.

Paul did persecute the early Church, but he was not blinded, and healed.

Muslims believe what ever the Quran says. The Quran says that if it has one error, then the whole thing is in error. Muslims never see an error.

Philo mentions God's firstborn the archangel Logos. Philo uses the same keywords Paul uses to describe Jesus. There's scriptual evidence in Paul that shows his Jesus was celestial, and never was on Earth.

There are problems with both Josephus, and Tacitus. Even if these passages are genuine, they only repeat what Christians believed.

Friend, you are under a delusion which an ancient system of the Brain is short circuiting the modern thinking part. All you have to do is look, but you won't thanks to the Holy Dopamine Ghost.

Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

Jesus Myth Part II - Follow-up, Commentary, and Expansion

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_followup.htm

The Gospel of Mark as Reaction and Allegory

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/gospel_mark.htm

Dr. Richard Carrier: The Mythical Jesus


Mythmaking in the NT


Why the Gospels Are Myth


Acts as Historical Fiction


Dr. Robert M Price: The Jesus Question


New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

New Testament Interpolations & Forgeries

http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2011/06/pauline-interpolations.html?m=1

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Legends2

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html

The James that Paul met was the "Brother of the Lord" in a fictive kinship of all Baptized Christians. Paul was also differentiating James from a racist James that did not behave in a spiritual family.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=291478
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
Dalek Supreme said:
There's two Pauls. The nonpseudographical Epistles Paul, and the fictional Book of Acts Paul.

Paul did persecute the early Church, but he was not blinded, and healed.

Muslims believe what ever the Quran says. The Quran says that if it has one error, then the whole thing is in error. Muslims never see an error.

Philo mentions God's firstborn the archangel Logos. Philo uses the same keywords Paul uses to describe Jesus. There's scriptual evidence in Paul that shows his Jesus was celestial, and never was on Earth.

There are problems with both Josephus, and Tacitus. Even if these passages are genuine, they only repeat what Christians believed.

Friend, you are under a delusion which an ancient system of the Brain is short circuiting the modern thinking part. All you have to do is look, but you won't thanks to the Holy Dopamine Ghost.

Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

Jesus Myth Part II - Follow-up, Commentary, and Expansion

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_followup.htm

The Gospel of Mark as Reaction and Allegory

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/gospel_mark.htm

Dr. Richard Carrier: The Mythical Jesus


Mythmaking in the NT


Why the Gospels Are Myth


Acts as Historical Fiction


Dr. Robert M Price: The Jesus Question


New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

New Testament Interpolations & Forgeries

http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2011/06/pauline-interpolations.html?m=1

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Legends2

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html

The James that Paul met was the "Brother of the Lord" in a fictive kinship of all Baptized Christians. Paul was also differentiating James from a racist James that did not behave in a spiritual family.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=291478
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None of that can stand up to the eternal WORD, written down in the King James Bible.

The Bible explains all that. And it predicts people like you and that really smart teenager in your videos will come and say foolish things in the end times.

Repent. Time is near.
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
I'm very spiritual and believe there's something that binds us and all life on this planet. But believing in a book (or books since there are many bibles/religions) that was written so long ago when literacy rates didn't even register on a scale, is the most preposterous thing I've ever heard. Cannot believe there are still followers of any religion when books/bibles were written at a time where handfuls of people could read and write. Do you think the writings could be skewed towards whatever beliefs and stories the writers wanted you to hear? lol

Think about all the religions and "bibles" written so long ago, in different parts of the world, but all essentially pointing to a simple explanation of some "god". They were written to appease and control the masses, nothing else.

Not bashing the bible(s) specifically, I don't pay much attention to anything written prior to the 1600's when literacy rates at least stared to register. Hell, even today we have to sift through crap, written by people who come up with findings/data skewed towards supporting their view and usually fueled by money.
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
Dalek Supreme said:
The Holy Dopamine Ghost:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=294330
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I was hoping you would recognize I was just trying to troll you a little. The Philo of Alexandria line was supposed to be my giveaway since its actually one of Carrier's pieces of evidence that there is no evidence for historicity.

Philo would have written about Jesus if he knew about Jesus. He lived in a time and place where he would have known it Jesus was anything like the biblical story. However he stays silent about any such man. Yet he does mention a celestial being with some connection to the Jesus myth.

I admire Carrier. I watched a debate with him against two theists, another man in Carrier's corner. Carrier dominated them. It was hysterical
 
Dalek Supreme

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
ThickStemz said:
I was hoping you would recognize I was just trying to troll you a little. The Philo of Alexandria line was supposed to be my giveaway since its actually one of Carrier's pieces of evidence that there is no evidence for historicity.

Philo would have written about Jesus if he knew about Jesus. He lived in a time and place where he would have known it Jesus was anything like the biblical story. However he stays silent about any such man. Yet he does mention a celestial being with some connection to the Jesus myth.

I admire Carrier. I watched a debate with him against two theists, another man in Carrier's corner. Carrier dominated them. It was hysterical
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Ha! Ha! It crossed my mind you were pulling Poe's Law, but it was hard to tell. I did do the double take when you mentioned Philo, and figured maybe a new misconception was being circulated. I actually had a bigger response, but the page got ate up. :(

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

Yes, I read Carrier's "Proving History", and "On The History". He shows that Jesus having existed as being very improbable. The early Xtians were looking at the OT as if it had secret revelations hidden in the verses.
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
Dalek Supreme said:
Ha! Ha! It crossed my mind you were pulling Poe's Law, but it was hard to tell. I did do the double take when you mentioned Philo, and figured maybe a new misconception was being circulated. I actually had a bigger response, but the page got ate up. :(

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

Yes, I read Carrier's "Proving History", and "On The History". He shows that Jesus having existed as being very improbable. The early Xtians were looking at the OT as if it had secret revelations hidden in the verses.
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I have not read his books, but i have done the next best thing, listened to hours upon hours of him at work.

It wasn't Poe's law, I was trying to be sneaky subtle.
 
schnooby

schnooby

Well-Known Member
Dalek Supreme said:
Fact: People get addicted to drugs.

Fact: These same drugs chemically release Dopamine which get people high.

Fact: People get thought addictions like gambling, and porn which they release Dopamine themselves.

Fact: You have to disprove above with evidence, and not conjecture.
Click to expand...
i want to first say that i respect your attempt to understand the arguably very complex issue of human neurochemistry in how it relates to human history and evolution.

But....you tried to make a couple points that i think deserve some friendly critique.


First you try to compare dopamine activity in the body as the result of exogenous substances to the natural, evolutionary dopamine activity which takes place as i pointed out as a result of all kinds of human activities, including listening to music or looking at art etc. I believe this is what is called a false comparison. This is just my assessment of your comparison of course, but i believe trying to say exogenous drug induced dopamine activity is the same as dopamine activity caused by normal human activities is erroneous and not based on a in depth study and treatment of all the mechanisms involved in hitting your receptors with powerful drugs which are known to cause unnatural spikes in neurotransmitter activity and throws the entire system into imbalance. Natural stjmulation on the other hand insures the body remains in homeostasis which is a preferrable state.

The second point you argued was that it was up to ME to prove what YOU asserted. This is not logical. You started off by alleging that the reason humans are religious is because they reap a neurochemical reward for their religious or spiritual activites. If you propose a thesis, which you did, the onus is actually on YOU to prove your point with facts, data, and well reasoned logical arguments. This is something i personally dont believe you did to the level you are caoable of and also which the theme deserves.

I would like to reiterate my earlier point that having a neurochemical reward system for human behavior and activities is in NO WAY an explanation for why they engage in it or a rationale for why those activities exist from an evolutionary standpoint. For example, it is known that during and after childbirth mothers are inundated with all kinds of hormones and chemicals which reward the mother for engaging in bonding and nuturing behavior. So evolutionarilly speaking does the mother only nurture their young because of the chemical payoff, the HIGH as it were? Or does the Action, which is initiated on a rational and necessary basis for the survival of the young come FIRST and then get reinforced via the chemical reward?

The issue is really very similar to the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg.
 
Dalek Supreme

Dalek Supreme

Well-Known Member
  • schnooby said:
    i want to first say that i respect your attempt to understand the arguably very complex issue of human neurochemistry in how it relates to human history and evolution.
    [*]

    [*]But....you tried to make a couple points that i think deserve some friendly critique.
    [*]

    [*]

    [*]First you try to compare dopamine activity in the body as the result of exogenous substances to the natural, evolutionary dopamine activity which takes place as i pointed out as a result of all kinds of human activities, including listening to music or looking at art etc. I believe this is what is called a false comparison. This is just my assessment of your comparison of course, but i believe trying to say exogenous drug induced dopamine activity is the same as dopamine activity caused by normal human activities is erroneous and not based on a in depth study and treatment of all the mechanisms involved in hitting your receptors with powerful drugs which are known to cause unnatural spikes in neurotransmitter activity and throws the entire system into imbalance. Natural stjmulation on the other hand insures the body remains in homeostasis which is a preferrable state.
    [*]

    [*]The second point you argued was that it was up to ME to prove what YOU asserted. This is not logical. You started off by alleging that the reason humans are religious is because they reap a neurochemical reward for their religious or spiritual activites. If you propose a thesis, which you did, the onus is actually on YOU to prove your point with facts, data, and well reasoned logical arguments. This is something i personally dont believe you did to the level you are caoable of and also which the theme deserves.
    [*]

    [*]I would like to reiterate my earlier point that having a neurochemical reward system for human behavior and activities is in NO WAY an explanation for why they engage in it or a rationale for why those activities exist from an evolutionary standpoint. For example, it is known that during and after childbirth mothers are inundated with all kinds of hormones and chemicals which reward the mother for engaging in bonding and nuturing behavior. So evolutionarilly speaking does the mother only nurture their young because of the chemical payoff, the HIGH as it were? Or does the Action, which is initiated on a rational and necessary basis for the survival of the young come FIRST and then get reinforced via the chemical reward?
    [*]

    [*]The issue is really very similar to the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg.
    Click to expand...

  • Firstly let's look at gambling. Gambling is addictive. Gamblers perceive an award while avoiding the reality of the odds for that reward. This shows that thought is addictive wether it's true, or not.


  • Are You Hardwired for Gambling? - Jonah Lehrer


  • A Fruit Fly (which has the same reward system as us) does not have the cognitive abilities we do. Eating & reproducing is just turning on the right switches for them, otherwise they would have died out.

  • The first organism that gave it's offspring an edge over other species probably did not involve cognitive thought. The species that reproduced in fewer numbers had to nurture it's young. The Wolf Spider that carries it's young on it's back does so because a neurochemical is present. Without this neurochemical it would eat it's young. This did not happen overnight, but over time where the spider that did not eat it's young won out.

  • The egg always came first.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
ThickStemz said:
None of that can stand up to the eternal WORD, written down in the King James Bible.

The Bible explains all that. And it predicts people like you and that really smart teenager in your videos will come and say foolish things in the end times.

Repent. Time is near.
Click to expand...
interesting.
so the word of "god" was written by man, no?
and not even the same one, but many different ones?
and also interesting you chose the king james version, considering the bible has been re-written, re-translated, and changed more than any book ever.
not to mention that most of the stories in the bible are older stories found in Egyptian parables.
but I suppose I should start repenting, maybe if I pray hard enough and promise to hate gays, participate in genocide, and rape women, maaaybe I can get eternal happiness..
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
interesting.
so the word of "god" was written by man, no?
and not even the same one, but many different ones?
and also interesting you chose the king james version, considering the bible has been re-written, re-translated, and changed more than any book ever.
not to mention that most of the stories in the bible are older stories found in Egyptian parables.
but I suppose I should start repenting, maybe if I pray hard enough and promise to hate gays, participate in genocide, and rape women, maaaybe I can get eternal happiness..
Click to expand...
Since king James was a divine right monarch God came and inspired him to rewrite the bible and get it back to its original form in a modern language set to be the most dominant for the next few hundred years.
 
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