Brix Levels; it's relevance to cannabis carbohydrate loading and enzymatic breakdown.

[normlpothead]

I don't know what is in the AN line, I know it works great, and know what each ingredient is supposed to do...

I don't know what stereates or if diammonium phosphate is used...

Thanks for the great response spamkiller. +rep 4 you.

 

[born2killspam]

Eh, I'm a science guy.. These are the threads I can really get into..

 

[Seamaiden]

Sorry I missed this post earlier, but basically yea.. Not that it makes a difference, its all part of the same ecosystem you want to thrive.. Thats why when I did hydro I used a double resevoir system, one of which contained a nitrogen fixating bacteria and goldfish..

That would be two benthic bacteria species (nitrobacter & nitrosomonas), both of which essentially oxidize the goldfish's nitrogenous wastes (urine, or in the case of the freshwater fish, urea excreted through the gills primarily, it's all got to do with osmoregulation) into less and less toxic compounds. The goldfish, by the way, is known in fish circles for being one of the "dirtiest" freshwater fishes to keep for the amount of ammonia they seem to produce along with skin slime that breaks down into nitrogenous wastes as well, so great choice! There are also anaerobic bacteria that can further break down the final nitrate compound you're left with completely, actually breaking the nitrogen free completely and allowing it to dissipate as good old N! However, those bacteria require, obviously, an anaerobic environment and that, by necessity, must be a very low water movement area/filter.

This stuff is fascinating, in part because one of the "new" things in reefkeeping is the utilization of carbohydrates in the form of VODKA to help support those benthic nitrifying bacteria that break down the NH3. I was pretty amazed when I read it, people dumping vodka down into their sumps, and then watching nitrate levels fall through the floor! I don't know if this is used in conjunction with foam fractionation, or with refugia set-ups, bare-bottom, or what. (I used to work the trade and still read and use some forums.) From what I've read elsewhere, the molasses is indeed more directly beneficial to the microbes than it is to the plant. However, that being said, there seems to be a good deal of empirical or anecdotal evidence that there is a benefit to using it.

Yes it basically iswhat I'm talking about.. If I was growing at the moment though, I'd try playing with some of the yeast energizers/micronutrients they sell at beer/wine ,aking stores for fermenting.. Might be more bang for the buck, fermentation is one area they've studied micro-organism response quite thoroughly in..

Yes, but aren't they interested in growing different things? Or are you saying that whatever the "thing" is, they all want to eat the same things? If so... I am incredulous, or at least interested in what you mean by that.

Ok, Self admitted Dumbass here, but if we add yeast, wouldnt the yeast produce alcohol? wouldn't the alcohol be bad for the roots? Or, is my understanding of yeast wrong, don't they all produce alcohol as a by product?

That's just it, they DON'T all produce alcohol as a byproduct. Otherwise... (I'm a woman)... certain types of infections would be more fun. EW!

So, I think that the missing link here begins with Mycorrhizae and other soil microbes. My understanding of the function of Mycorrhizae (endo and ecto) is that they do two things; First, they encourage the proper type of root growth, that being the fine hair-like roots where the nutrient uptake actually takes place; Second, they also break down nutrients and minerals, and act essentially as tiny little Agents of Chelation, because they are basically chelating nutrients. This seems to be very well documented.

I know y'all are speaking specifically of hydroponic/aquaponic growing, but the plant is the plant is the plant, and what it requires to grow and live and thrive is what it requires. At this point I figure if I can learn about coral reefs well enough to emulate that environment and grow corals and other reef inverts/vertebrates, i can learn about this! This is a GREAT thread, too, by the way, these are things that are new to me and I really REALLY love it.

Of course, the goldfish inspired me to actually post something here. I am such a fish geek.

 

[born2killspam]

Yea, you definately seem to know your fish, and aquatic ecosystem stuff..
I'm interested in the brew additives mainly because they seem to boost whatever microbial colonies happen to be present in a fermentation (whether desired or not).. Obviously the goal is to make the yeast happy, but if there is some kind of bacterial infection when you start a fermentation, then the bacteria totally outcompete the yeast (with or without special additives).. But it becomes brutally obvious that there is an infection quite a bit sooner with the energizers/micronutrients, so logic dictates that alot of these micro-organisms have similar tastes.. I'm just shooting at the broad side of the barn on this one..
And thanks for bringing up the chelating agent point.. I meant to mention that earlier, but kept going off on tangents.. Thats something ppl can read up on directly and easily get the gist of alot of these reactions..

 

[dvsdsm]

This reminds me so much of the conversations I would have with my Botany Prof. Weeden (yes that was his real name, well known in the Botany community, largest Herbarium in the US outside of the Ivy League) in college. We'd sit at the bar on fri nights and go over the weeks material. And I'd ask alot of questions about my "tomato's" Intellectual stimulation over a few beers and a few trips out to the car to "make a phone call" <---"Phone call"
+reps if i could leave em Spam

 

[born2killspam]

Glad to hear you have a botany prof.. Get that guy involved in this conversation..

 

[dvsdsm]

Had... Gradumacated back in 03. Def gonna put this together in an email for him to review. Busy guy though, might take a while for him to respond.

 

[MrBaker]

It is to my understanding that not it is possible that not all plants form relationships with mycorrhizae, but may do. I'm not sure if cannabis or even any other N loving plant for that matter forms this type of relationship even if it seems beneficial to the plant. Soybeans fix N back into the soil, and their realtionships with N-fixing agrobacterium are well documented.

Everyone seems to be in agreement that micronutrients (if any, like sulfur) are probably good for the plant, and that the sugar portion of the molasses is for bacteria and/or fungi living within the soil, and products of the bacterial/fungal digestion are good for the plant.

I'm glad a lot of you said things that were correct and insightful, so I didn't have to say them (no typing = ). Next Time I get a chance to look more closely at soil when its dumped from the pot, I'm going to look for mycorrhizae. Anything that gives the plants more stuff to eat, and/or expands the rhizopshere...I'm all for.

I used to ask my botany/plant phys prof about my "tomatos" too.

@ fish tank lady. You're pretty awesome if you're growing corals. I'm trying seagrass in a weird shallow custom made tank with only some hermit crabs. We'll see how it goes.

 

[bicycle racer]

if you can do reef tanks cannabis is childs play. that was my job for 6 years aquarium maintenance and yes in aquaponics goldfish or koi(carp really) are great because of there waste levels and ease of care there are other good choices but goldfish are cheap. i ussually add bogwood or peat products to drop ph and increase tannins and humic acids ussually i end up with a ph of 6 to 6.5. not best ph for goldfish but they will handle most anything you have no idea. i wait until nitrates are in the hundreds and use this water(with added supplements) on organic soil grows with good results. sorry a little off subject but if you have access to aquarium water preferably with bogwood or peat applied it is a great living source of good water just make sure no rock salt/methelyne blue/copper or other medications etc..etc... were added for the fish as this will kill or stress plants. as far as sugars(botanicare sweet) i use them mainly to strengthen microbiological populations in the soil which in turn makes nutrients more available to the plant. i do notice a large difference in root mass when i use tarantula and piranha with carbs as opposed to plants that were not inoculated with these fungus and bacteria species i think these products tend to work symbiotically with the living aquarium water for a overall healthy microbiological population. afterall bacteria make the world go round you have more bacteria in your gut than you have cells in your body and without them your health will be poor i feel in soil grows the same is true.

 

[normlpothead]

Like Bicycle Racer said,
Quote: I do notice a large difference in root mass when I use tarantula and pirahna with carbs as opposed to not.

Me too.

I noticed an extreme increase in yield when I started creating fungus and bacteria colonies in the soil. And root mas was outstanding.

At the time I did this I was still using the 3part non organic line, and basically this is what made me switch to organics. Such a dramatic increase in root size and yield got me intrested in organic compounds, and how they benefit the plant.

I'm not very scientific, but understand what you're talking about... Just don't know all the chemical names.

Does anyone know what fungus and bacteria pirahna and tarantula are made of?

I wish I still had my 125 saltwater bowfront aquarium, had to leave it with the house... I bet it's a crappy goldfish home now... With stupid plastic crap that makes bubbles... Stupid crap.

 

[Seamaiden]

Yea, you definately seem to know your fish, and aquatic ecosystem stuff..
I'm interested in the brew additives mainly because they seem to boost whatever microbial colonies happen to be present in a fermentation (whether desired or not).. Obviously the goal is to make the yeast happy, but if there is some kind of bacterial infection when you start a fermentation, then the bacteria totally outcompete the yeast (with or without special additives).. But it becomes brutally obvious that there is an infection quite a bit sooner with the energizers/micronutrients, so logic dictates that alot of these micro-organisms have similar tastes.. I'm just shooting at the broad side of the barn on this one..

Logic does dictate this, and this is something I didn't know (but MIGHT have, had my husband continued brewing these past three years, and he makes a fine hefeweizen, peach, oh God). This addresses my question exactly, thanks.

And thanks for bringing up the chelating agent point.. I meant to mention that earlier, but kept going off on tangents.. Thats something ppl can read up on directly and easily get the gist of alot of these reactions..

Just knowing that it makes nutrients more "bio-available", better and more easily utilized by the organism in question, then that's enough. I can't speak to how these processes work on a molecular level, and I'm not sure it's something that needs addressing, at least not initially. Maybe, though... hm. Anyway.

It is to my understanding that not it is possible that not all plants form relationships with mycorrhizae, but may do. I'm not sure if cannabis or even any other N loving plant for that matter forms this type of relationship even if it seems beneficial to the plant. Soybeans fix N back into the soil, and their realtionships with N-fixing agrobacterium are well documented.

I... I seem to recollect something about that, root vegetables maybe? I'm gonna put up something from my Dr. Earth Organic 5 fertilizer, I think knowing genera and species can be helpful when trying to sort some of this stuff out.

Everyone seems to be in agreement that micronutrients (if any, like sulfur) are probably good for the plant, and that the sugar portion of the molasses is for bacteria and/or fungi living within the soil, and products of the bacterial/fungal digestion are good for the plant.

I think that's the general consensus, and.. I think the research supports this (but I didn't bookmark what I found when I was searching up Mycorrhizae).

I'm glad a lot of you said things that were correct and insightful, so I didn't have to say them (no typing = ). Next Time I get a chance to look more closely at soil when its dumped from the pot, I'm going to look for mycorrhizae. Anything that gives the plants more stuff to eat, and/or expands the rhizopshere...I'm all for.

Then you're gonna love Dr. Earth. The Organic 5 is for veggies, including root veggies (so.. ignore what I said above). I need more, so I'm going to get their fert for the acid loving plants (azalea, rhododendron, evergreens), in part because I have issues with hard, alkaline (well-buffered) water.

@ fish tank lady. You're pretty awesome if you're growing corals. I'm trying seagrass in a weird shallow custom made tank with only some hermit crabs. We'll see how it goes.

Oh, very cool! I had my own tanks YEARS ago, then got a job in the trade and got rid of my tanks. Then, a few years ago I got rid of the last of my equipment, and I am now kicking myself in the ass because I could have used a LOT of it (especially the lighting!) to move some of my garden indoors. The grass tank sounds interesting, will you have seahorses and pipefishes if it succeeds?

if you can do reef tanks cannabis is childs play. that was my job for 6 years aquarium maintenance and yes in aquaponics goldfish or koi(carp really) are great because of there waste levels and ease of care there are other good choices but goldfish are cheap. i ussually add bogwood or peat products to drop ph and increase tannins and humic acids ussually i end up with a ph of 6 to 6.5. not best ph for goldfish but they will handle most anything you have no idea. i wait until nitrates are in the hundreds and use this water(with added supplements) on organic soil grows with good results. sorry a little off subject but if you have access to aquarium water preferably with bogwood or peat applied it is a great living source of good water just make sure no rock salt/methelyne blue/copper or other medications etc..etc... were added for the fish as this will kill or stress plants. as far as sugars(botanicare sweet) i use them mainly to strengthen microbiological populations in the soil which in turn makes nutrients more available to the plant. i do notice a large difference in root mass when i use tarantula and piranha with carbs as opposed to plants that were not inoculated with these fungus and bacteria species i think these products tend to work symbiotically with the living aquarium water for a overall healthy microbiological population. afterall bacteria make the world go round you have more bacteria in your gut than you have cells in your body and without them your health will be poor i feel in soil grows the same is true.

Ok, now I had been wondering specifically about methylene blue as an anti-fungal agent for use with clones. It's what's used not only for treatment of fish, but to find bad eggs when you're breeding, AND it's used by surgeons to determine dead, sick, or injured flesh (it turns kinda black when it's been soaked in the methylene blue, but it's also really cool) to be removed. So..! I'd been wondering, if you don't have something like H2O2 on hand, or if you're afraid it might burn the clone you're trying to generate (since I'm totally new at cloning), would the m.b. be a suitable alternative?

Anyone who's used this stuff knows you're gonna have blue fingers for a week. At least it's a pretty blue.
________________________________________________________________________

Ok, SO! I've been giving my plants mycorrhizae (and other microbes, but specifically mycorrhizae) via mainly two, but occasionally three methods: A liquid plant food I call Hippie Juice that's sold as Super Plant Tonic (it smells like an anaerobic aquarium); Dr. Earth Organic 5 dry pre-mixed fertlizer which gets top-dressed and was mixed into the initial soil mix; and Gardner & Bloome--potting soil for initial potting and mulch for, well, mulching. I'll have to look up the Super Plant Tonic (although if you search on Ohsogreen he's got a thread on the stuff, you can find lots of information about it from a guy who's been using it for some time), but I'm going to post for you the specific microbe genera and speci information, which includes the numbers, in propagules, of each critter.

Dr. Earth Organic 5 Microbe Roll Call​

Propagules/cc
​

• Bacillus subtilis...................1430
• Bacillus cereus.....................1430
• Bacillus megaterium............1430
• Azobacter vinelandi................75
• Lactobacillus acidophilus....1430
• Rhizobium japonicum............750
• Aspegillus oryzae....................75

Propagules/lb - Ectomycorrhizae​

• Pisolithus tinctorius........211,864
• Rhizopogon villosuli...........5,296
• Rhizopogon luteolus...........5,296
• Rhizopogon amylopogon....5,296
• Rhizopogon fulvigleba........5,296

Propagules/lb - Endomycorrhizae​

• Glomuz intraradices................42
• Glomus mosseae......................42
• Glomus aggregatum................42

Contains 10% Humic acids (derived from Leonardite).
Mycorrhizae: Contains 233,174 viable mycorrhizal propagules per pound of the above organisms.

 

[DR. VonDankenstine]

All great technical advanced information-I take the no-brain-er easy way--"Make Tea Not War"-I use and mix enzimes/fugi/benificial microbes with sucanat and all my nutes and bubble them for 24 hours in a 5 gallon container. My plants love it. I use a brix meter during flowering to tell if I need to add or reduce my sucanat level in my tea, that's it.

 

[Seamaiden]

Well... like I said, I'm new, never grown hydro/aquaponically (though I've grown some aquatic plants), and have focused my attention on what's more pertinent to my grow (like vermiculite... ha! ). But, just like with every other organism I've ever played around with, their needs don't really change, what changes is how the human responds to those needs. Does that make sense?

 

[bicycle racer]

i think from my use of it methylene blue could be usefull as a direct possibly dillute application to plant tissue for fungal or bacterial problems it certainly will kill either but it is not selective as to which microbes it kills so as long as only applied to the plant and kept out of the soil or reservoir it might be usefull as it tends not to burn tissue ive accidentally dyed myself blue a number of times. a possible better choice might be a product containing tea tree extract(melaleuca) such as melafix(aquarium pharmaceuticals) or other. it is one of my favorite treatments for external fungal or bacterial problems on fish or people it works well and doesnt kill beneficial microbes as readilly as m.blue i have used it at dose with no destruction of the nitrogen cycle microbes. also it is a plant extract so obviously safer to use i would just spot test to see if terrestrial plants react poorly to it aquatic plants in my experience were not affected

 

[lolapug2175]

Many, Many, Many thanks to all you who are contributing with this thread!! By initiating this post I was hoping to dispel much of the misappropriated information surrounding the practice of carloading in the 'canna-culture'. Typical to complex topics of discussion, many different Threads may be sourced from the kernel. Due to the significance and the depth of information needed to even begin understanding the symbiotic relations of microorganisms and it's plant, I would like to initiate another thread specific to this topic. The knowledge dropped relating to this topic in this thread genuinely deserves a dedicated Thread. (for the topic of beneficial organisms see my thread titled 'The Symbiotic Rhizome Zone; Developing and sustaining active cultures.'
Delving further into the original topic of discussion.... I have been brushing up on my chemistry since the initiation of this post. I have been plagued by the simplicity of the answer to the question: &#8220;Can plants directly benefit from Carbohydrates?&#8221; The consensus answer was &#8220;No&#8221; However as I am beginning to further understand carbohydrates they come in a few different shapes and sizes. As I understand it carbohydrate molecules derived from plant saccharide ester are a small enough to be absorbed by the root. I also am beginning understand that there is a downside to this as it inherits the original form from the plant it was derived from, thus disabling the plant from assimilating and creating more complex amino acid chains. This maybe an inappropriate analogy however, from my understanding these act like keys. These keys can fit the lock but will not fully open the door. How correct is my understanding? Can this form of carb-loading be significantly beneficial? How can this form of carb-loading be implemented?


Humbly, this is not my discipline. If the community can please help me clarify any inaccuracies in my description as well.
Best!
-LP

 

[Seamaiden]

My mother's a dietitian, and she'll tell you that carbohydrate (or, hydrated carbons) come in all SORTS of shapes and sizes that greatly affect how they're utilized by a given organism. In this instance, I'm not sure you can really tease apart the relationship between the microorganisms plants require (beknownst to us or not) in order to utilize any nutrients, as I honestly feel that the issue of "carbo-loading" is almost innately tied up with microbes. Either way, link yer thread, please. Nevermind, found it.

 

[lolapug2175]

My mother's a dietitian, and she'll tell you that carbohydrate (or, hydrated carbons) come in all SORTS of shapes and sizes that greatly affect how they're utilized by a given organism. In this instance, I'm not sure you can really tease apart the relationship between the microorganisms plants require (beknownst to us or not) in order to utilize any nutrients, as I honestly feel that the issue of "carbo-loading" is almost innately tied up with microbes. Either way, link yer thread, please. Nevermind, found it.

Hi Seamaiden, Thank you for fallowing the fork I apologize to all for failing to link the new thread.
Regarding your post... Point well noted! Describing the method of drinking the water with out discussing the glass can make for a difficult explanation. My intention was not to halt the tangent of microbes but to provide a more appropriate forum to delve further into this topic.
Understanding that the primary benefit of carb-loading is to provide these microbes with a product that can be converted to energy for them to further assist their part in this symbiotic relationship. It's my understanding that there are forms of carbohydrates that can become available to the plant via the root system. The results of my recent experiments have been pointing me towards a thesis sustaining the idea that plants are like huge banks of transistors (switches, relays). One can gain access to certain functions of the plant by triggering these specific functions. Is there potential for inducing a ramp in energy pre-flower by supplying a type of carbohydrate that can be directly assimilated by the plant? Using An analogical example: If you give an Olympic runner amphetamines prior to a race they will exceed their natural ability. This is obvious not a sustainable practice as it put tremendous stress on the body of the performer (heart, muscles, liver). But what if we don't care about our 'Runner' as they will be disposed of post race? Can this idea be applied to the life cycle of a plant? I have not been able to find significant information/documentation supporting this and was wondering if any out there could share any relative knowledge.

 

[Seamaiden]

I'm going to try for an analogy here, let's try using your Olympic runner. He's gotta be fast, he's gotta train before he gets those amphetamines. So, my analogy suggests, though I am no expert either (let me reiterate, HARDLY), that the microbes we may actually be supporting are like the runner's training or conditioning regime, that which makes him better able to run in the first place. In other words, if he doesn't train FIRST, giving him amphetamines won't make him into something he's not, which is fit to actually run fast.

Of course, he may have run off without me and I'm just talking out of my ass, too, so....

 

[born2killspam]

I'd analogize the microbes more to the machine that mashes the peas and carrots and prunes so that old ppl don't have to chew..

Ok fine, I don't know if such a machine exists for geriatric food processing, but it should, and if it did exist then thats what I'd analogize the soil microbes to..

 

[Seamaiden]

That's a good analogy, sort of, you're talking about a blender, food mill, food processor kind of deal. But think more in terms of pre-digestive juice, saliva (icky!), making certain foods better or more easily available for us to consume. They make it better or more easily possible for the plants to make use of the food that's there, that's how I interpret what I've read. I've just taken more clones, again using the Hippie Juice that's got mycorrhizae in it (also a very slight inoculation with a tea that's got mycos), and since some of these clones are from girls that are well into flowering, I'm hoping that the mycos will help facilitate that root growth that is so problematic with these types of clones. If it works, I'll take more clones of my Papaya if I can find branches that don't look like they'll give much bud.

I need to get some decent veg lights soon.