Top bin COB comparison

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hillbill

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To reach a reflective wall, the photons have already missed your buds once, and they are far from sure to hit them on the bounce less reflection work. Isn't it best to get the light to the plant in the most direct route possible? No free lunch.

Lenses or reflectors simply group the emitted light into a distributive shape to best grow your plants. I really just want a specific area thoroughly covered. You may also do this with lower bare cobs, especially in groups. LEDs are by nature a directional emitter and you might consider them "focused" since they don't put light out in all directions.

All in all, I use highly reflective walls but would prefer the light to not reach them.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
Multiple light sources will not change the "overall" penetration
It does actually. The light can move a lot easier between the leaves if it comes at the plant from a lot of sides.

The point I made was that adding a reflector to increase PPFD locally (and therefore penetration) will also decrease PPFD (and therefore penetration) in other areas. With as the only net result some reflection losses on the reflector and no increase in penetration overall.

All in all, I use highly reflective walls but would prefer the light to not reach them.
And as my crude drawing indicated. A much much smaller portion of the light does reach the wall than the amount of light that hits reflectors.

BTW photons move down from the lamp. It's not like they randomly bounce around a lot. They don't generally miss the bud and then hit the wall. It's the fraction of light that comes in at such a shallow angle that it needs a bounce to even get close to the buds.

Anyway, not going to explain this again. Just happy that crusaders like Greengenes and Purplebuzz now (mostly) get the other general concepts that I mentioned which offended them so earlier.
 
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stardustsailor

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Wow, a few weeks ago people were ready to burn me at the stake for saying that inverse square law doesn't really apply in grow tents/rooms with reflective walls, that you can't use open space PPFD matrices to indicate PPFD levels in a grow tent, that PPF (minus losses) divided by surface area determines average light density (plus most of the concept of penetration), that people generally use the concept of penetration incorrectly and that reducing the beam angle with a reflector does not increase "penetration" unless at the cost of surface area covered.

Just wanna repeat that what stardustsailor so eloquently stated, that it's not just the quantity of light, but also a measure of how diffuse the light is. In that sense one 800umol isn't the same as another 800umol. In fact greenhouse tests with diffuse screens have shown improved plant production even though these screens absorb some light. But then sunlight is about is non-diffuse as you can get.
(...) that inverse square law doesn't really apply in grow tents/rooms with reflective walls(...)

Of course it applies ! But it's way complex -even for advanced software/hardware - to exacty calculate
the energy(or power if you prefer ) levels at a " x,y,z" point somewhere inside the tent/room ..

(...)that you can't use open space PPFD matrices to indicate PPFD levels in a grow tent(...)

Correct ...

(...) that PPF (minus losses) divided by surface area determines average light density (plus most of the concept of penetration(...)

Well...At what height ? Excuse me ,I meant distance from light source ?
Space has 3 dimensions (that we know of ,at least ..) Surface is the two of them ...
Furthermore ...
Ain't exactly "average density " ...It depends from the space and light source characteristics ....
Inside an intergrating sphere ,yes ,that it would be "average " ....
Inside a grow tent ,ok ,it's an approximation of average ...
And the less the space becomes reflective and diffusive ,the less "average" it becomes ...
Still , I do not understand the concept of penetration ...

(..) that people generally use the concept of penetration incorrectly and that reducing the beam angle with a reflector does not increase "penetration" unless at the cost of surface area covered.(...)

A reflector / conc. lens does not increase the output flux of a light source .
(Extra energy is needed for that to happen ..)
What they do actually ,is decreasing diffusion .Pretty useful when the distance of light source from leaf canopy increases and/or there are not any reflective surroundings ...That's why I do trust that those (lenses & reflectors )
mainly find their use in large grow installations (where even in case of reflective surroundings affect only the plants near them ) or in artificial greenhouse lighting ...And yes ,it is always at cost of surface area covered.You gain here ,you lose there ...

(...) In that sense one 800umol isn't the same as another 800umol (...)

A red laser can have 800umol/sec ,as a HPS bulb ,as also a LED COB light ,as any other light source ...
But ,yeah ...There are some differences among them ...In what way those 800umol/sec are "delivered" to a leaf canopy ....A laser will saturate an area of a top leaf ,and lots of photons will be transmitted to an area of the next leaf under the top one ....Lots of " penetration " ,eh ? But only to a small tiny area ...You get the picture...

(...)In fact greenhouse tests with diffuse screens have shown improved plant production even though these screens absorb some light(...)

Indeed,in greenhouses diffuse sunlight has shown to increase yields in comparison to direct sunlight .
Diffusing screens used in greenhouses ,are there to " SPREAD OUT " the light
( opposite action of reflectors / concentrating lenses ) in order to be " omnidirectional " so all the plants inside
the greenhouse will absorb ,reflect and transmit light about equally,per plant .

Analogous to using more LEDs/COBs in a given space ,driven lower .
( Not exactly ,but close enough,to get the principle idea .)
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
It does actually. The light can move a lot easier between the leaves if it comes at the plant from a lot of sides.

The point I made was that adding a reflector to increase PPFD locally (and therefore penetration) will also decrease PPFD (and therefore penetration) in other areas. With as the only net result some reflection losses on the reflector and no increase in penetration overall.

And as my crude drawing indicated. A much much smaller portion of the light does reach the wall than the amount of light that hits reflectors.

BTW photons move down from the lamp. It's not like they randomly bounce around a lot. They don't generally miss the bud and then hit the wall. It's the fraction of light that comes in at such a shallow angle that it needs a bounce to even get close to the buds.

Anyway, not going to explain this again. Just happy that crusaders like Greengenes and Purplebuzz now (mostly) get the other general concepts that I mentioned which offended them so earlier.

BTW photons move down from the lamp. It's not like they randomly bounce around a lot. They don't generally miss the bud and then hit the wall. It's the fraction of light that comes in at such a shallow angle that it needs a bounce to even get close to the buds.

Well said.:hump:

Cheers.
:peace:
 

Rahz

Well-Known Member

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
The brighter the wall, the more light has missed. Just want as much to hit at first.
Trust me ,the side walls -in case of reflective ones- mostly reflect the " stray " photons back to the leaf canopy ...
The biggest losses are to be found in the ...floor (and pots ,soil ,etc ) ...

An example ...
Enclose only the "above ground" parts of a plant in a reflective environment ....
Then the light losses due to absorption are limited to the absorption of the reflective material used ....

Say that you find a 100% reflective material ,ok ?
Then in that grow space ,all the photons will be eventually absorbed by the plant ...
No matter if you have used reflectors and /or lenses or not ,no matter the distance of light from leaf canopy ....
No matter if the light source is not illuminating the plants directly .
Say that the light source is actually aiming at the " ceiling " of the particular space ....

Photons are then "trapped " in a "bouncy " environment .
And the only thing present inside there that can actually absorb them is the plant,itself.
Nothing else.
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry guys have to leave you now ...
A friend came and we 've some " issues " to resolve between us ....
On the carom table ....I need some money ,he,he,he ...
( Have I mentioned before that I'm a fanatic carom player ?
Ok ,I'm not Filipos Kasidokostas,but i'm pretty good at 3-cushion ... )

I need that money 'cause....I'm in love ....
With a masai ...
(:

https://store.kozoom.com/uk/carom_billiards/longoni-masai-silver-limited-edition-billiard-cue.html

Sorry for the derailing ...
Got to go ....

Cheers.
:peace:
 

AquariusPanta

Well-Known Member
It would be best if we used the term intensity instead of penetration when we are referring to the amount of light provided by a given light source. Penetration, like @PSUAGRO wisely said, is a "fuzzy term" which is casually misinterpreted by those who have not partaken in RIU's Penetration 101 class.
 

The Dawg

Well-Known Member
It would be best if we used the term intensity instead of penetration when we are referring to the amount of light provided by a given light source. Penetration, like @PSUAGRO wisely said, is a "fuzzy term" which is casually misinterpreted by those who have not partaken in RIU's Penetration 101 class.
Yea Well That's All fine And Dandy. Plus We know Todays Youth Like warm And Fuzzy Things. However Ask Your Old Lady if She Prefers 4 Inches of Intensity or 12 Inches Of Penetration And I Mean Hard Penetration :hump:

 

BuddyColas

Well-Known Member
Added the Vero 29 3000K 80CRi V2. It came equal to or just under the 4000K, very good performance overall. I whited out the CXB3070 3500 to help us see the Vero curves better.
View attachment 3592540
It is very interesting when reality meets the printed page (specs). This confirms what Robincnn and AP have been say, the Vero 29 performs far better than it's printed specs. I was surprised to see the Vero 29 3000K preform so closely to the 4000K. And still watt for watt at the 25-30 watt range, you get 7-8% more photons with the CXB3590. Good to know. Thanks for the followup.

(And, after taking on all challengers, the CXB3590 is still the undisputed heavy weight champion of the COB world!:mrgreen:)
 
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