Top bin COB comparison

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BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
im at a loss why the veros are performing at 90% of the ppfd/W of the 3590s when they have only ~70% of the lumens/watt according to the spreadsheets.

what variables could there be?

1. veros have a narrower beam and the centerspot reading in your test is exaggerated high

looking at the datasheets:
angle/relative intensity

cxb3590:
0deg 100%
30deg 86%
60 deg 46%

vero29:
0deg 100%
30deg 86%
60 deg 46%

identical for all intents and purposes

2. vero29s and CXB3070 perform over their stated bin spec

3. cxb3590 perform under their rated bin spec

(obv #2 and #3 are either/or)
 
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BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
another way to interpret that chart:
at the typically used 49W a CXB3590 3500k is 7.9 PPFD/W

to obtain the same 7.9 PPFD/W with a vero 29 you'd need to run it at 29W

so looking at apples to apples efficiency you get 29W out of a single vero($25-29) and 49W of a single 3590 ($45-$49) so wheres the savings? thats 1.5x as many veros you gotta wire for a given wattage
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
another way to interpret that chart:
at the typically used 49W a CXB3590 3500k is 7.9 PPFD/W

to obtain the same 7.9 PPFD/W with a vero 29 you'd need to run it at 29W

so looking at apples to apples efficiency you get 29W out of a single vero($25-29) and 49W of a single 3590 ($45-$49) so wheres the savings? thats 1.5x as many veros you gotta wire for a given wattage
the vero in that chart is a 4k, the cxb3590 is 3500k a huge difference.
 

bassman999

Well-Known Member
another way to interpret that chart:
at the typically used 49W a CXB3590 3500k is 7.9 PPFD/W

to obtain the same 7.9 PPFD/W with a vero 29 you'd need to run it at 29W

so looking at apples to apples efficiency you get 29W out of a single vero($25-29) and 49W of a single 3590 ($45-$49) so wheres the savings? thats 1.5x as many veros you gotta wire for a given wattage
Some people are running then at 700mA to be even more efficient, and not much output for the cxb3070 at a comparable 350-375mA I would think for penetration
 

2ANONYMOUS

Well-Known Member
Yeah looks nice, I'd be curious to see how the results differentiate between the Apogee 120 PAR meter, with approximated correction factor for otherwise excluded wavelengths, and the new one you mention. The argument was started when you butted in and carried yourself as you always do.

Taking your oranges-apples analogy one step deeper, you're nonetheless stating that comparing 3000K with 4000K is useless, as by doing so, one would be 'comparing tomatoes to oranges'. Well for one, there are many varieties of each fruit, so let's say the 3000K is the red orange and the 4000K is the orange orange. But wait, Vero 3000K isn't the same as CXB3000K, right? You might not know unless you have tested or utilized both in a timeframe suitable for you to realize that the latter version is actually more red. Ok, so we could assign oranges to Veros, while CXB are assigned as apples.

To address your argument, which is that one shouldn't compare red oranges (Vero 3000K) with orange oranges (Vero 4000), I'd like to bring in some facts from the manufacturer's datasheet.

View attachment 3585117

As you can see, typical fluctuations occur for a given temperature. So even if one were to send a given light source or light fixture to be IS tested, it would likely hold and provide slightly different lighting properties in comparison to a duplicated sample. With your logic of oranges to oranges or apples to apples, one could never reasonably compare in the first place two cobs of the same make and series after seeing these ranges provided through Bridgelux's Vero datasheet.

Based on what you've said in this debate, you simply want a meter that measures what your plants want or receive. Tell me when they make that meter, because that technology will be one step away from reading what humans want and that my dear friend would be quite a priceless piece of technology. Until then, I guess we'll have to rely on approximations to pen down what plants more than likely want or simply just compare PAR outputs of various lighting sources to reason what source puts out more than the other - the main goal behind my use of the meter.



You aren't telling me anything new, brother. I don't believe there is anything currently available, nor will there be, that will satisfy those die-hards but in the same respect, we shouldn't let their narrow-minded track of what should and shouldn't be dictate how we approach this realm of lighting. Again, the issue isn't really an issue regarding the use of the meter but rather the intent and that itself is pointless to argue over given everything that has been provided and pointed out. If you take into account all the factors that go into PAR output comparisons, while using an Apogee 120 meter w/ wavelength approximations, and keep them level of each tested sample, then it doesn't take very long to reasonably and accurately conclude which lighting source is dissipating more photons in a given area. Sure, you can go and spend a tiny-fortune on having a lighting source tested through an IS but unless there is some kind of serious factor that is excluded in the use and testing of an Apogee PAR meter, like optics vs no optics, then the sought-after answer, while not as defined, will likely remain the same in either case.
i say nail the area hard with ppfd :) for instance 5 x 5 20 cobs 5 drivers giving me 1000 watts and around 1100 PPFD that should work out well you think 3500k and 6500 K top bin mix 3590 well we wiill see soon lol how well it really does then maybe spread it out for maybe 5 x 8 area and add another 1k in cob power for total of 50 Sq feet
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
3k vero tracks the same as 4K on the chart. i dont think comparing both of these to 3500k cree is a stretch
no it doesn't , vero 4k has way more blue, and a higher efficiency than a 3k vero.5k

just as a 4k cree has a lot more blue than a 3k or 3.5k cree.
 

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
Some people are running then at 700mA to be even more efficient, and not much output for the cxb3070 at a comparable 350-375mA I would think for penetration

Lets put it this way:

If you had 800 ppfd from a 700mA power source and 800ppfd from a 350mA power source...they would have Equal penetration...

Yes it would take more diodes @350mA to equal 800ppfd....but current doesn't determine penetration....lack of PPFD does though!

:peace:
 

EfficientWatt

Well-Known Member
Lets put it this way:

If you had 800 ppfd from a 700mA power source and 800ppfd from a 350mA power source...they would have Equal penetration...

Yes it would take more diodes @350mA to equal 800ppfd....but current doesn't determine penetration....lack of PPFD does though!

:peace:
Actually, you could argue that the 350mA option probably would have a little more efficacy due to more point sources. More angles for the light to reach lower canopy, less shadowing from the upper canopy. Would you agree ?
 
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Abiqua

Well-Known Member
Actually, you could argue that the 350mA option probably would have a little more efficacy due to more point sources. More angles for the light to reach lower canopy, less shadowing from the upper canopy. Would you agree ?
absolutely agree...all I was saying, is that physically it would take more diodes running @350mA, even with increased efficiency, to match the 800ppfd figure...than @700mA...

I myself look for the highest efficiency I can afford but at the end of the day, its all about the photons, and hence a ppf/ppfd measurement. :peace:

I am also saying that penetration is related to a photon count, not the "power" of Current. They are interrelated to be sure, but using current as indicator of penetration, just based on efficiency, won't be accurate without a measurement of overall photons per second...
 

BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
no it doesn't , vero 4k has way more blue, and a higher efficiency than a 3k vero.5k

just as a 4k cree has a lot more blue than a 3k or 3.5k cree.
are we talking about the same chart? way i read it is the two vero 29s are almost identical, and between the red and the orange lines
 
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bassman999

Well-Known Member
Lets put it this way:

If you had 800 ppfd from a 700mA power source and 800ppfd from a 350mA power source...they would have Equal penetration...

Yes it would take more diodes @350mA to equal 800ppfd....but current doesn't determine penetration....lack of PPFD does though!

:peace:
Thanks for the clarification, this helps me with my cxa3070 dilema
 

BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
only if the light source is the same distance!

800 canopy ppf from a far light source (HPS, the sun, etc) will penetrate a lot more than 800 canopy ppf from a close light source (T5, etc)

if youre running your 3070s harder at teh same distance = same same

if youre putting your 3070s closer to make up ppf = big difference
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
are we talking about the same chart? way i read it is the two vero 29s are almost identical, and between the red and the orange lines
I was talking about the published SPD from the datasheet. They are different color temperature chips, can't compare them directly for performance without taking that into account.

also I was referring to your statement:

so looking at apples to apples efficiency you get 29W out of a single vero($25-29) and 49W of a single 3590 ($45-$49) so wheres the savings? thats 1.5x as many veros you gotta wire for a given wattage
its not apples to apples and most of the differences can be attributed to color temperature
 

augusto1

Well-Known Member
Lets put it this way:

If you had 800 ppfd from a 700mA power source and 800ppfd from a 350mA power source...they would have Equal penetration...

Yes it would take more diodes @350mA to equal 800ppfd....but current doesn't determine penetration....lack of PPFD does though!

:peace:
Let me see if I undertood, 4 cobs @ 25 watts or 2 cobs @ 50 watts will have the same penetration of a 100 watts cob?

Thanks In Advance.
 

BOBBY_G

Well-Known Member
I was talking about the published SPD from the datasheet. They are different color temperature chips, can't compare them directly for performance without taking that into account.

also I was referring to your statement:



its not apples to apples and most of the differences can be attributed to color temperature
yeah im discussing supras tests per this thread. its been acknowledged that none of these chips are performing exactly how we would expect
 

augusto1

Well-Known Member
dissipation watts, no, the 4*25 would put out more light than 1@100

if yyoure talking par watts well 100 par watts is 100 par watts
No, I am talking about penetration let put it this way, will 4 250 watts hps have the same pentration of a single 1000 watts hps in a 5' plant?

Thanks In Advance.
 

hillbill

Well-Known Member
When multiple light sources are involved, overlap becomes a factor. I noticed this with hps but much more with LEDs. I have panels with 72 white LEDs and the reduction of shade within the plants is awesome. Same with cobs. Little sources like 5w leds or 50w cobs or even 1000 hps all benefit rom this overlap zone. This alters so called penetration.
 

kmog33

Well-Known Member
No, I am talking about penetration let put it this way, will 4 250 watts hps have the same pentration of a single 1000 watts hps in a 5' plant?

Thanks In Advance.
Definitely the same if not more because you could take three of the bulbs and stick them next to or under the one plant. You'd have more even coverage as far as where your hotspot/footprint is because you would have multiple light sources with overlap creating more even distribution of light.


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