EXCUSE ME?!..The OFFICIAL Bernie Sanders For President 2016 Thread

[WeeblesWobbles]

I'm comfortable with the direction the conversation is going; people need to be dragged into the nuts and bolts to understand just how badly they're bring screwed by Big Medicine.

Totally agree. We're paying enough--right now--for everyone in the US to get gold-plated care. The money needs to be rationally applied.

That said, the US consumer deserves a full share of blame. We over consume. We demand spurious treatments. We want flat screens and private rooms in our hospitals.

I'm a US citizen and I've lived in the UK and Singapore. If I was seriously ill I'd want to be in Singapore. Their system is variously ranked #1 or #2 in the world. Check out the piece on Singapore Health Care on Wikipedia, it's a good summary. Nothing is free, even for the poorest and most subsidized individual, but no one is bankrupted by health care costs unless they're complete idiots. Poor folks are heavily subsidized, rich folk get essentially no subsidy and purchase private insurance. Health savings accounts are mandated and most people have hefty accounts built up. It's fair, people don't over consume because there is still a charge, and everyone is covered.

A blend of government sponsorship and private care is pretty much the common theme with great programs. I'm looking at you France, Gemany, Japan. The Rs and Ds will each hate different parts of such a plan and love others. That's the hallmark of a good compromise.

Something has to be done because what we have now is nucking futs.

 

[schuylaar]

Why do you keep confusing me with someone who gives a fuck.
Report yourself for being an awful mother. Get your damn life together

Reported.

 

[londonfog]

Reported.

Get a life. and you wonder why your child looks at you the why she does

 

[Fogdog]

You're right, a "cesspool of liberal douchebags" is a much more accurate description of the ny times. Wanna know what their readers should be called?

Liberals and Conservatives can find something to disagree with every day in the NY Times and most mainstream media. Both groups are full of zealots that would suppress free speech if they could. In light of who owns those outlets (1%'ers), I find it extremely funny when conservatives scream bloody murder about the "liberal media".

Here's to laughing at you and looney tunes:

 

[WeeblesWobbles]

We need rational discourse and the end of hyperbole. Example: the Rs screamed "Death Panels!" during the health care debate and the Ds mocked them for it. I think the Rs had it right, actually.

I had a business in London, Borough of Southwark, south of the Thames, stone's throw from the southern end of London Bridge. R&D. My medical director was also a biggie in Guy's Hospital Medical School, one of the top schools in the UK.

Southwark, like nearly all districts in the UK, managed their National Health Service budget and resources locally. My medical director, let's call him Dr Tom, was on one of the big committees--the Resource Allocation and Prioritization Board or somesuch. Dr Tom insisted that it be called the Death Committee in order to keep things real.

I remember in particular that Southwark had 17 kidney dialysis machines at the time, and they could process X number of patients, can't remember the exact number. They always had X+3 or X+4 folk who needed dialysis in the borough. More than they could handle. The Death Committee decided who got care and who didn't.

Smoke cigarettes? You get the chop. You're retired and the other X had jobs and families to support? Chop. Drug user, felony arrest, they didn't like the cut of your jib? Chop, chop, chop. Extensive co-mobidities? Get your affairs in order.

Similar decisions were made for transplants, chemo budgets, yadda yadda.

Unless you have an infinite budget, medical resources will have to be allocated in a single-payer system. It's a huge source of conflict in the UK when the NHS says a treatment is denied for your 4 yo daughter because the treatment is experimental (read too expensive) and it's the gold standard therapy in the US.

I'm actually good with a single payer system, although I greatly prefer Singapore's scheme. But I know what I'm getting into and I'll always have the dough to buy a supplementary insurance program. No chop for me or mine.

But those of you who hate and distrust government and big businesses, remember that the government will be running a single payer system and the NHS in the UK rivals WalMart in size. There WILL be triage and resource allocations, and while it's generally more fair overall that's cold comfort when it's your kid getting the chop.

 

[schuylaar]

We need rational discourse and the end of hyperbole. Example: the Rs screamed "Death Panels!" during the health care debate and the Ds mocked them for it. I think the Rs had it right, actually.

I had a business in London, Borough of Southwark, south of the Thames, stone's throw from the southern end of London Bridge. R&D. My medical director was also a biggie in Guy's Hospital Medical School, one of the top schools in the UK.

Southwark, like nearly all districts in the UK, managed their National Health Service budget and resources locally. My medical director, let's call him Dr Tom, was on one of the big committees--the Resource Allocation and Prioritization Board or somesuch. Dr Tom insisted that it be called the Death Committee in order to keep things real.

I remember in particular that Southwark had 17 kidney dialysis machines at the time, and they could process X number of patients, can't remember the exact number. They always had X+3 or X+4 folk who needed dialysis in the borough. More than they could handle. The Death Committee decided who got care and who didn't.

Smoke cigarettes? You get the chop. You're retired and the other X had jobs and families to support? Chop. Drug user, felony arrest, they didn't like the cut of your jib? Chop, chop, chop. Extensive co-mobidities? Get your affairs in order.

Similar decisions were made for transplants, chemo budgets, yadda yadda.

Unless you have an infinite budget, medical resources will have to be allocated in a single-payer system. It's a huge source of conflict in the UK when the NHS says a treatment is denied for your 4 yo daughter because the treatment is experimental (read too expensive) and it's the gold standard therapy in the US.

I'm actually good with a single payer system, although I greatly prefer Singapore's scheme. But I know what I'm getting into and I'll always have the dough to buy a supplementary insurance program. No chop for me or mine.

But those of you who hate and distrust government and big businesses, remember that the government will be running a single payer system and the NHS in the UK rivals WalMart in size. There WILL be triage and resource allocations, and while it's generally more fair overall that's cold comfort when it's your kid getting the chop.

When 29M people in the US do not have healthcare..what does a 'chop' matter?

 

[londonfog]

When 29M people in the US do not have healthcare..what does a 'chop' matter?

explain to us again why you can't keep a job or receive healthcare

 

[WeeblesWobbles]

When 29M people in the US do not have healthcare..what does a 'chop' matter?

Let me explain it to you. Most of the people who don't have healthcare are marginalized. They're unemployed, illegal aliens, and/or the poor. Powerless, except for their single vote, if they even cast it. They don't give campaign contributions. Even Bernie needs money.

We've already had one go at a plan-to-end-all-plans to get those people health insurance and it's been (depending who you talk to) a complete or partial failure. The exchanges are collapsing, the young are pissed that they can't tailor their plans and incensed over the fees/penalties, and a fraction of the expected number signed up. The background level of skepticism has gone up.

It makes a big difference if 300M people are pissed off for the benefit of 29M. You need those 300M to demonstrate charity and compassion towards an underclass with their votes. Piss them off--or even worse, scare them--and those 29M can pound sand. That's how the world works.

 

[ttystikk]

Dude, you are out of your damn mind. Quote some article from a well-known mouthpiece for neo-liberalism like the New York Times.

http://testtube.com/testtubenews/is-turkey-buying-isis-oil/

More perspective. If ISIS funds are drying up, Turkey would have to stop buying their oil. Which we know (Russian intelligence and satellite photos that I will provide per request) they are still doing right this very minute, and that's ISIS being sponsored by a NATO ally without getting into support for "moderate rebels".

Trump said that about the make-up of EUROPEAN migrants, the ones causing all the problems over there right now. I know the US created the crisis, but that doesn't give anyone the right to rape innocent women and shoot up music venues and measures must be taken against such a thing to prevent further wrongdoing.

Obama is doing exactly the wrong thing by air-striking the Assad government after lying about chemical weapons and ridiculous claims about the shape of the bombs his military uses. Also well reported. He's arming militants that are in fact mercenaries. Putin elaborated recently to the affect of : "they are mercenaries, they are moderate rebels until they reach an ISIS controlled oil field where they are paid better." This is the international consensus. The fact that Obama is even in Syria after making such erroneous claims about the Assad Government using chemical weapons (yellow cake and ties to Al Qaeda, remember?) baffles me. Obama is every bit as bad as both Bushes and Clinton and foreign policy and worse on domestic issues. Bank bailout, huh? Twice? No management bonuses for five years? Bonuses anyway, Holder's "Too-big-to-fail-too-big-to-jail"? Are there paid shills on RIU?

Heres some more fringe sources:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/02/europe/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-tensions/index.html
http://testtube.com/testtubenews/is-turkey-buying-isis-oil/
http://nsnbc.me/2014/09/06/fool-twice-eus-turkeys-lies-buying-oil-isis/

Here's the latest episode of the Keiser Report that mentions the new declassified Hillary memo:
https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/329404-episode-max-keiser-864/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/06/16/gowdy-blumenthal-not-author-benghazi-memos-to-clinton0.html

You're out of your mind and on my ignore list.

 

[ttystikk]

I'll credit him for being a genius at attracting free publicity. Republicans have announced their willingness to blow up our government to get what they want. Trump is taking it one step further, he's willing to blow up the Republican party to get what he wants.

At least I agree with his aim in this case.

 

[ttystikk]

Totally agree. We're paying enough--right now--for everyone in the US to get gold-plated care. The money needs to be rationally applied.

That said, the US consumer deserves a full share of blame. We over consume. We demand spurious treatments. We want flat screens and private rooms in our hospitals.

I'm a US citizen and I've lived in the UK and Singapore. If I was seriously ill I'd want to be in Singapore. Their system is variously ranked #1 or #2 in the world. Check out the piece on Singapore Health Care on Wikipedia, it's a good summary. Nothing is free, even for the poorest and most subsidized individual, but no one is bankrupted by health care costs unless they're complete idiots. Poor folks are heavily subsidized, rich folk get essentially no subsidy and purchase private insurance. Health savings accounts are mandated and most people have hefty accounts built up. It's fair, people don't over consume because there is still a charge, and everyone is covered.

A blend of government sponsorship and private care is pretty much the common theme with great programs. I'm looking at you France, Gemany, Japan. The Rs and Ds will each hate different parts of such a plan and love others. That's the hallmark of a good compromise.

Something has to be done because what we have now is nucking futs.

Singapore's system works because the godfather of the country had a thing about rooting out corruption wherever he found it. THAT is the lesson of the 'magical' success of Singapore, health care as much as the rest of it. It's the lesson neither American political party wants getting taught here.

 

[WeeblesWobbles]

Singapore's system works because the godfather of the country had a thing about rooting out corruption wherever he found it. THAT is the lesson of the 'magical' success of Singapore, health care as much as the rest of it. It's the lesson neither American political party wants getting taught here.

You're absolutely right.

 

[schuylaar]

Let me explain it to you. Most of the people who don't have healthcare are marginalized. They're unemployed, illegal aliens, and/or the poor. Powerless, except for their single vote, if they even cast it. They don't give campaign contributions. Even Bernie needs money.

We've already had one go at a plan-to-end-all-plans to get those people health insurance and it's been (depending who you talk to) a complete or partial failure. The exchanges are collapsing, the young are pissed that they can't tailor their plans and incensed over the fees/penalties, and a fraction of the expected number signed up. The background level of skepticism has gone up.

It makes a big difference if 300M people are pissed off for the benefit of 29M. You need those 300M to demonstrate charity and compassion towards an underclass with their votes. Piss them off--or even worse, scare them--and those 29M can pound sand. That's how the world works.

Thank you for 'explaining it to me'..now let ME explain something to you.

We've been striving for health for all for hmmmm about the last 100 years give or take..unsuccessfully.

29M Marginalized people? How about those who fall through employer cracks of no benefits these days? The employer who only hires part time? Subcontractors 1099 who are miscategorized purposely to avoid paying benefits(@londonfog) and we're talking Fortune 500s right down to mom & pops..there used to be a time in this country when benefits were heralded as mark of good company in order to attract the best..this has changed..over the last 40 years weathly have figured out a way to maximize profits through savings on benefits (and payroll taxes) shifting tax burden to middle and poor classes etc in every way possible and when not enough urging employees to take that 2nd or 3rd job their human resource providing phone number to state Food Stamp program.

Our country requires everyone to pay a proportionate amount to wealth..not wealth take wealth and figure how to obtain more wealth on the backs of everyone else through lobby and back room deals and pork filled bills. You may not become your own little monarchy through your wealth. This country no matter how much or how little..one person = one vote PERIOD! Then of course there is the wealth they've built off our backs ..they DIDNT build it..WE all did!

Bernies campaign is grassroots and the Americans (the poor do donate) who support him do so by single dollars (average donation $25) and his campaign rivals that of those who are funded by super pacs..geeze how could this be? Perhaps it's the 300M who are pissed off left AND right which is why for the first time ever BOTH front runners are ANTIestablishment?

Obamas ACA is right church; wrong pew..he did not foresee exchange startup insurance companies to fold as they did (50% first year and lack of States participation in expanding their Medicaid) instead of stabilizing premiums lack of competition drove up premiums as the only survivors were those same abusers of the past. Kids could give a flying fuck about health as they are on their parents until age 26 by law..the only ones upset about not being able to carve out services are the old white fucks too young for retirement but too sick to not have health..the obese, smokers..they have all sorts of health issues. Personally I think there should be a surcharge to make up for their extra services if you are not height/weight appropriate..nobody forced those Big Macs down their throats or those cigarettes to their mouth that was their choice..perhaps we should initiate a 'consumption tax' through these big corps payable to our healthcare system?

THATS how the US works!

 

[schuylaar]

I apologize for being condescending. I was wrong. Bad day, hotel mini-bar...but that's no excuse.

You list a litany of injustices in the health care system. I get it. But many of them were created by the "you have to pass it to see what's in it" plan. Employers have been financially incentivized to cut hours and hire 2 x part-timers by the Act. Large corporations that had good bennies were expected to push people into the exchanges by dropping bennies--you realize that was part of the plan, right?--and smaller businesses are getting hammered and can't afford them. Look at the Russell 2000, the small cap stock index. It's down 40% in the last 12 months. Small businesses are hanging on by their fingernails.

And 1099 misclassification is fraud. The DOJ and IRS take 1099 complaints seriously and whistle-blowing suits with the IRS can be lucrative. Find another job first.

And there's no fucking way you or anyone else built my business. It's a great line to capitalize on envy and discontent, but it's bullshit. I've paid my full, fair share of taxes, fees, and blood every step of the way. I've kept the company based in the US when moving to London or Singapore would have made me a bundle. Say that line face to face to some small business owner or franchisee and be prepared to duck.

I'm from the health and benefit sector and the part timer thingy was long long before ACA..so you can't blame it on that.

Business owners hanging on by their fingernails have no one to blame but a) big business who pay negative effective tax rates wishing to shift burden to others including mr Scorp which I've said here a million times and until I'm blue in the face b) themselves for thinking (and being convinced by right wing propaganda) they are mr ccorp and voting as though they are.

And yes..we did build it TOGETHER.

 

[spandy]

Reported.

Oh we know. 5 minutes later in comes a lame language warning to my account. She obviously got that PM you posted about 10 minutes ago.


Random flags thrown on the field wont change the scoreboard.

 

[schuylaar]

Oh we know. 5 minutes later in comes a lame language warning to my account. She obviously got that PM you posted about 10 minutes ago.


Random flags thrown on the field wont change the scoreboard.

And changing the goal posts doesn't change the game.

 

[schuylaar]

Yes, I can blame it in large degree on the ACA. And yes, businesses always managed overtime and dibursement of bennies based upon full/part time status but the disincentive for full-time jobs really took off after the ACA went into effect.

If you're in HR you know that the ACA added three disincentives for hiring full time:
a back-door implicit tax on full-time work for those who don't meet the thresholds for the ACA’s health insurance subsidies, an implicit tax that links the amount of available subsidies to workers’ incomes, and an explicit tax on full-time work. These are well-documented. Businesses are incentivized to keep hours under 29 and pay beneath the thresholds. They only go full time when the position requires talent/training that's in short supply.

The democrats want to fix those provisions AND remove the idiotic taxes on medical devices, etc. ("It's only fair that we tax those corporations that will profit under the new law." "The new law will cut costs for medical procedures." What's wrong with this picture? Who ultimately pays for the new taxes?).

It baffles me why people defend policies that are clearly hurting the people they claim to represent.

Re: your video post. Seriously? It's kumbayah now? How come the social cohesiveness of the good ol' days is denigrated for male/apartheid/sexist/homophobic but then, when it makes a good narrative, it's all "By gosh but we sure pulled together as a team, didn't we?" Fuck that noise. People who started businesses, hired people, paid taxes built that. Not the non-participants that most of this blather is targeted towards.

I meant to post this.

 

[spandy]

explain to us again why you can't keep a job or receive healthcare

I would also like to know this.

 

[Harrekin]

And before you jump in with


Same bullshit. No, "we" aren't paying to fix the roads and keep marauding bands at bay because 49% of "us" don't pay taxes. The goal is to get more people making money and paying taxes. Growing the pie, not taking away the piece I've earned. And not emplacing disincentives for hiring people or disincentives for working.

She's a demagogue. A librarian/granny demagogue but a demagogue nonetheless.

And I'll get right on building that wayback machine to undo the Iraq war. So take away two fingers. And I'll renegotiate the prescription drug deal to NHS levels but that'll take back 1/3 of a finger.

The Bush tax cuts are indefensible. They can have the middle finger.

The Bush regime was a fucking disaster, mostly from the geopolitical standpoint. But you know what? He's out of office. Has been for 7 years. Time to start dealing with the hand we've been dealt and stop bitching about what could have been. That's loser talk.

Let me ask you...

If Weebles wobble, why don't they fall down?

 

[ttystikk]

And before you jump in with


Same bullshit. No, "we" aren't paying to fix the roads and keep marauding bands at bay because 49% of "us" don't pay taxes. The goal is to get more people making money and paying taxes. Growing the pie, not taking away the piece I've earned. And not emplacing disincentives for hiring people or disincentives for working.

She's a demagogue. A librarian/granny demagogue but a demagogue nonetheless.

And I'll get right on building that wayback machine to undo the Iraq war. So take away two fingers. And I'll renegotiate the prescription drug deal to NHS levels but that'll take back 1/3 of a finger.

The Bush tax cuts are indefensible. They can have the middle finger.

The Bush regime was a fucking disaster, mostly from the geopolitical standpoint. But you know what? He's out of office. Has been for 7 years. Time to start dealing with the hand we've been dealt and stop bitching about what could have been. That's loser talk.

That Bush's disaster is still with us after all these years should serve as a warning not to let people like that into the halls of power.

And Mrs Warren has excellent points, including those about how the factory the business owner built being made possible by the society he lives in. Don't like it? Move your business to Singapore and see what happens when you duck THOSE taxes!