defoliation when in flower

[BobCajun]

From the soil and then upto around 6-10 inches of every plant (about 2 foot total) is a big shadow bushy area receiving no light. In that area are some stems that gre into it but at this point will never reach the canopy or light area. Is it a good idea to at-least cut away those few entire stems that never made it to the top?.

Yeah I suppose there's no point in any foliage at all after a certain depth, unless you use bottom lighting.

 

[Uncle Ben]

What is your reasoning for saying this?

Here we go again. No, I have never removed any leaves outdoors or in.

Early this morning I responded to another newbie about this issue at another forum. Since it has been discussed a thousand times at RIU, I spent 30 minutes of my time putting together links with photos and text. Here is that thread. READ

I'm just worried the buds covered by big fan leaves might not thicken up and get big. Hmmm.

Tell that to an apple grower. Production is driven by a plant's ability to intercept light via its foliar canopy. Fan leaves are the most efficient receptors of that light. There is a "God given" reason why they stick out into space on long petioles and are such large light collecting "panels".

There is no real world value to getting light to bud sites. They just don't have enough "green" matter, photosynthesis production, to do any good.

* Don't get confused as to why a peach grower and vineyard manager might want to get sunlight to a tree's fruit, even if it's 10% dappled light. They are focused on customer market appeal so they want fruit with fine skin pigment, color, and size (dropping 60% of the new juvenile peach set off the tree). Vineyard managers want sunlight to the fruit for a different reason - to lower levels of a chemical which produces a vegetative or herbacecous taste in the finished wine.

Here's a few links that jest might soothe da soul. This is why I might get so damn grumpy. After 16 years of repeating myself I lose patience with every new crop of newbs that follow The Herd rather than learning botanical principles.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-31#post-10986496
https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-126#post-11165602
https://www.rollitup.org/t/lollipopping-any-scientific-evidence.846126/page-26#post-11001634
https://www.rollitup.org/t/lollipopping-any-scientific-evidence.846126/page-22
http://rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-128#post-11170543

....and the discussion continues - https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/page-2

 

[Flowki]

Here we go again

I understand the concept you are getting at but answer me this. If the plant grows tall over it's veg cycle and/or bushes out, certain leaves that were once in light now no longer are due to poor indoor light penetration (particularly in a lst grow or with plants closer together). If a solar panel is no longer able to be a solar panel what happens next?. From what I've read the plant will try to keep the lower leaves alive or the leaf will give up it's stored nutrients when needed and die, like a savings account so to speak (or do they just die?). I don't know if either are true or if they both take place together, so I'm asking you.

Assuming both are true and take place. Is the enrgy the leaf gives back to the plant worth the energy the plant spent trying to keep it alive prior?. My take on lower leaves where that they are a early warning system to possible neut deficiency or that toward the end of flower they give up stored energy if the buds demand it. Ofc assuming they can survive that long with very little light?.

Also with ought getting into a debate over what form of growing is better Another question. I assume you still grow in the 4 cola system you pushed forward. But it has to be said, I've seen ALOT more popularity on scrog or basic LST type training. Your system does sure look like it would allow more light to the lower parts of the plant where as lst/scrog blanked the canopy blocking light to any lower leaves as I'm sure you're aware. Well, I think you are smart enough to see where I am going with that question.

Btw. I've only seen a few of your posts and a most of those were quite bitter. Yes I can understand repeating the same shit to newbs will be annoying but seriously, nobody is forcing you to read or post in response to us. As the old saying goes, if you got nothing nice to say. I'm just giving you a heads up because the first post I seen of yours was amazing info but the smug shit that followed, not so much.

 

[Flowki]

Yeah I suppose there's no point in any foliage at all after a certain depth, unless you use bottom lighting.

I seen a few vertical grows and the leaves look funky as hell. I guess it's logical since that's not a natural light source angle. I assume a bottom light would be even worse?. I can see how it could confuse the plants hormones or what not as it would be confused over gravity vs light direction.

Once I can produce a spherical equilibrium chamber, I will show you an interesting plant. Or maybe just a seed ^^.

 

[Uncle Ben]

....nobody is forcing you to read or post in response to us.

...........

 

[ArcticOrange]

Here we go again. No, I have never removed any leaves outdoors or in.

Early this morning I responded to another newbie about this issue at another forum. Since it has been discussed a thousand times at RIU, I spent 30 minutes of my time putting together links with photos and text. Here is that thread. READ



Tell that to an apple grower. Production is driven by a plant's ability to intercept light via its foliar canopy. Fan leaves are the most efficient receptors of that light. There is a "God given" reason why they stick out into space on long petioles and are such large light collecting "panels".

There is no real world value to getting light to bud sites. They just don't have enough "green" matter, photosynthesis production, to do any good.

* Don't get confused as to why a peach grower and vineyard manager might want to get sunlight to a tree's fruit, even if it's 10% dappled light. They are focused on customer market appeal so they want fruit with fine skin pigment, color, and size (dropping 60% of the new juvenile peach set off the tree). Vineyard managers want sunlight to the fruit for a different reason - to lower levels of a chemical which produces a vegetative or herbacecous taste in the finished wine.

Here's a few links that jest might soothe da soul. This is why I might get so damn grumpy. After 16 years of repeating myself I lose patience with every new crop of newbs that follow The Herd rather than learning botanical principles.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-31#post-10986496
https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-126#post-11165602
https://www.rollitup.org/t/lollipopping-any-scientific-evidence.846126/page-26#post-11001634
https://www.rollitup.org/t/lollipopping-any-scientific-evidence.846126/page-22
http://rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-128#post-11170543

....and the discussion continues - https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/page-2

They need to sticky a thread thats just quotes from you from every post asking this tired question. Fans are factories! I understand removing lower growth shoots that will never reach the canopy but i leave my lower fans until they drop off and die, i find them to be a good source of nutrition the plant can pull from if it feels it isnt being a productive leaf.

 

[SPLFreak808]

To all that attempt to try defoliation. just know, you we're not the first and many MANY have tried and failed including myself. If you say it works, you need to be successful with a journal first before attempting any bold statements.

 

[puffdatchronic]

just no

 

[BobCajun]

You linked a thread about lower buds not needing light. I find that the lower buds are less dense and lighter color. Your plants must have been widely spaced. I think there's a minimum light intensity for cosmetically appealing buds, probably about 200 ppfd.

 

[ArcticOrange]

You linked a thread about lower buds not needing light. I find that the lower buds are less dense and lighter color. Your plants must have been widely spaced. I think there's a minimum light intensity for cosmetically appealing buds, probably about 200 ppfd.

Thats what uncle ben was getting at when he was talking about orchards pruning peach trees for nothing but visual market appeal. Just didnt vonnect the dots to cannabis. Harvest the top, leave the bottoms for a few days longer. Youll get the effect youre looking for.

 

[jacksthc]

lmao this thread makes little to no sense

what about all the newbie growers out there with there t5's, low watt leds, hps in flower
They all need to keep the plants short, bushy and may need to remove some fan leaves in flower to keep the humidty low and make the best use of there lights

This thread makes you think its good to have large bushy plants in flower with low airflow.
Removing some fan leaves in early flower is a very effective way of controlling the canopy shape and slowing the strech down in flower.
If you run out of height in flower you can really mess your plants up.
a lot of the growers here that are against defoliation are more likly to have a few 1kw hps over some plants in a warehouse so they never run out of space and they want large bushy plant in flower

just read this post tell you

the top 15% of foliage accounts for 80% of the photosynthesis that happens

Hmm, I just want to point out that those studies agreed with your points about too extreme and actually clarified that the top 15% of foliage accounts for 80% of the photosynthesis that happens.

I also want to point out that these are scientific studies down with controls and your anecdotal evidence while relevant is insinificant vs the studies I am talking about where thousands upon thousands of acres of plants have been run.
I would also like to point out that Hightimes did a similar study and regardless of how mainstream their info is, it still applies...
I also want to point out that your argument? Is silly. Cannabis growing, again and again is proven to be just like every other crop, and to believe otherwise is to be the guy that spends more money on Advanced Nutrients that his crop

That makes a lot of sense to me, why have a 5ft plant when you can pull the same yeild or higher off a 2ft plant

imo if the canopy is very dense, only the top few inches will recive good qualty light but if you remove a few fan leaves to thin the canopy out, more leaves will recive good qualty light and airflow
turning the light into more useable enegy to grow buds

 

[jacksthc]

OP check this link out
https://www.rollitup.org/t/topping-went-wrong.887803/

loads of members jump on this thread and said his mate mess the plants up by defoliation, told her there all talking crap and your mates done a great job

they all turned out great, a large level canopy full of buds

 

[Uncle Ben]

lmao this thread makes little to no sense

This thread makes you think its good to have large bushy plants in flower with low airflow.

That's the way I always grew with plants crammed on top of plants. My fans took care of the fungus pressures.

Stretch is caused by the use of high P foods, genetics and lighting aside. I have posted that data link many times. Again, with ever new crop of newbs......

Check out week 4 + https://www.rollitup.org/t/spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning.9114/

 

[Uncle Ben]

they all turned out great, a large level canopy full of buds

Means nothing except that cannabis will replenish what is lost to a limited extent. He lost yield and time due to recovery.

"Great" is a subjective term. It's not scientific and without a control group and a 3 time identical run with every factor controlled, it's meaningless.

"What if" he had left all leaves on?

 

[chuck estevez]

@Uncle Ben , Did you know Advanced Nutrients is now ripping you off too?

 

[kmog33]

I seen a few vertical grows and the leaves look funky as hell. I guess it's logical since that's not a natural light source angle. I assume a bottom light would be even worse?. I can see how it could confuse the plants hormones or what not as it would be confused over gravity vs light direction.

Once I can produce a spherical equilibrium chamber, I will show you an interesting plant. Or maybe just a seed ^^.

Plants don't understand up, the grow towards the light source. I've don't bottom lighting and what happened was the branches all grew towards whatever light was closest to them. It was really interesting to have branches growing off the the side at the ground.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kmog33]

You linked a thread about lower buds not needing light. I find that the lower buds are less dense and lighter color. Your plants must have been widely spaced. I think there's a minimum light intensity for cosmetically appealing buds, probably about 200 ppfd.

It has to do with light causing the thc to degrade faster where it has direct contact. It why lots of people say you should dry and cure in the dark and leave some fans on while hanging. Your observation is correct. And the post about leaving the bottoms a few days longer is also on point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jacksthc]

That's the way I always grew with plants crammed on top of plants. My fans took care of the fungus pressures.

Stretch is caused by the use of high P foods, genetics and lighting aside. I have posted that data link many times. Again, with ever new crop of newbs......

Check out week 4 + https://www.rollitup.org/t/spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning.9114/

This is what I expected you to say.
With a large setup your right but ever tried add 2 x16" fan to increase air flow in a standard 1m tent, it doesn't work.
Don't growers call it bud box or somthing when you try and put a small fan under the canopy and another one aimed down at the canopy so you fill the room and don't have any gaps
your ideal are good in theory but hard to do in practice, also you need the 16" desk fans, 12" away from the plants or you get wind burn (twisted growth, leaves dry out to fast)

 

[Uncle Ben]

I don't do tents. They are not practical.

 

[Uncle Ben]

@Uncle Ben , Did you know Advanced Nutrients is now ripping you off too?

Funny stuff. Years ago I saw a video of Aryan (Greenhouse Seeds) showing "us" how he created 4 main colas in his indoors garden, bush style too. That was about 8 years after I was playing with it and then finally posting the method in cannabis forums.