Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
"A lot" ? I bet you're using bloom foods. The plant is transferring N from the lower leaves to the upper.
People, study plant nutrition and stay away from cannabis forums. 90% of it is crap..
defoliation when in flower
- Thread starter shhhmokey
- Start date
People, study plant nutrition and stay away from cannabis forums. 90% of it is crap..
TommyDuhCat
Well-Known Member
I shouldnt have said a lot. That day maybe 5 dropped per plant, maybe 5-10 per plant since.
Thanks for assuming i don't know anything about plants. I've got bonsai trees older than you.
Thanks for assuming i don't know anything about plants. I've got bonsai trees older than you.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but I automatically assume someone who defoliates doesn't know shit when it comes to plant culture and you did reveal this - "This is my first grow still."I shouldnt have said a lot. That day maybe 5 dropped per plant, maybe 5-10 per plant since.
Thanks for assuming i don't know anything about plants. I've got bonsai trees older than you.
My conclusions is based on a forum thread track record in which 99% who defoliate are newbs feeling they have re-invented the wheel.
It's fun to watch them cut off their nose to spite their face.Trust me, your bonzai's are not older than me.
lawlrus
Well-Known Member
You should always remove the large fans that block airflow and light to interior budsights -- that's necessary regardless of what you think about "defoliation" as it is typically discussed on forums like this. I have tried the more extreme defoliation techniques (pinching close trim and sugar from colas) and noticed no difference whatsoever, but that's anecdotal obviously and not based on multiple tests because I don't have any reason to do so.
You've got some interesting extremes of opinion in this thread, but very little actual information...right off the bat, on the one side, the folks who think that the idea of removing any leaf besides a dead one is so ridiculous that they are making jokes about it instead of providing answers (because they don't know enough to do so and prefer to muddy the waters of the conversation instead of learning themselves). Let's make sure we are differentiating between the extreme defoliation that is typically talked about by new growers and the necessary and important defoliation like I mentioned above.
You've got some interesting extremes of opinion in this thread, but very little actual information...right off the bat, on the one side, the folks who think that the idea of removing any leaf besides a dead one is so ridiculous that they are making jokes about it instead of providing answers (because they don't know enough to do so and prefer to muddy the waters of the conversation instead of learning themselves). Let's make sure we are differentiating between the extreme defoliation that is typically talked about by new growers and the necessary and important defoliation like I mentioned above.
theRealBlackBart
New Member
Well i'm into defoliation on a religious zealot level. About mid way into flower i can slowly start and then eventually maliciously hack every fan leaf with a joint i can get at. The only difference i notice is tighter denser buds and WAY more light and air moving through the room.
xmatox
Well-Known Member
BobCajun
Well-Known Member
Here's an idea, not defoliation but debudding. With grapes, they cut off all the suckers but one so they have about 20 leaves for one bunch of 30-40 grapes and nothing else on that branch. Well, with Cannabis you would remove all the little branches below the terminal cola of each branch but keep all the leaves. All those leaves would then be pumping juice into those main colas, like a prize pumpkin. The energy that would have gone into making larf buds then goes into making good top buds.
theRealBlackBart
New Member
I'm going to be doing some side by side comparisons with one of my most stable and consistent strains pink lady. it would be worth it to add BobCajuns idea as a variable. the extreme opposite to defoliation. I will be doing 4 each (defoliated and non) both in soil and DWC. Any input that you think would be helpful in this would be appreciated.
xmatox
Well-Known Member
lollipopping
BobCajun
Well-Known Member
Lollipopping is removing everything from the bottom, including leaves. My method doesn't involve leaf removal unless they're dead or close to it. just the useless lower bud sites. In fact, you could leave the lower branches with their leaves on and just pick off the bud sites rather than remove the entire lower branches as with lollipopping. Removing leaves wouldn't help much, since then there would be more bud sites per leaf so they would all be underfed.
xmatox
Well-Known Member
it is interesting. I feel that lollipopping would be more effective. Why leave the leaves on the bottom? The point of getting rid of lower leaves and bud sites is to focus the energy to the cola's. So why is half ass better? Not saying you are wrong at all, just interested to how you got to your theory. Thanks
BobCajun
Well-Known Member
Well I mean if they're healthy lower leaves getting enough light. Maybe keep the lower leaves and stick some LED tubes (fluorescent replacements) through. It doesn't matter where the leaves are on the plant as long as they get enough light. With grapes the leaves that they keep are along the entire branch and they all feed sugar to the grape bunch at the end. Granted I don't know if weed buds are analogous to grape bunches, but maybe they are. Without the big stalk leaves all the buds have are little tiny leaflets. Anyway, it's just an idea. I haven't heard anyone else raise the idea. After reading an article about grapes it looked like something worth trying.
xmatox
Well-Known Member
Good thoughts for sure! I will have to try this.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
This is why. Note the buds on the bottom are wider and thicker than those above.
This is not meant to be a put down, but some of you guys need to go back to school. 98% of the posts here are misguided.
....with every new crop of newbies.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
No you shouldn't.
lawlrus
Well-Known Member
What is your reasoning for saying this? I can't think of a single positive that could far enough outweigh the very real negative of having a huge mess of fan leaves blocking light and airflow to make it worth your while not to remove those fan leaves. Are you saying that you don't remove any leaves at all when you grow? Do you have any photos of anything that you have personally grown? I'm interested to see what your thoughts are on the subject supported with your actual experience. I'm certainly willing to adjust my opinion to match any facts to the contrary that you might be able to provide.
xmatox
Well-Known Member
Couldn't you have just left it at the advice you gave? Nope, uncle ben to the rescue with his remarks.
lawlrus
Well-Known Member
To be fair, I can understand why someone with a background in the hard sciences, particularly plant-related ones, would take issue with 90% of the stuff posted on pot forums. He's right about most of it being bullshit or half-cocked anecdotal accounts at best, and since most people who post on pot forums are stoned all the time, they can't remember the finer details sometimes which might account for some misunderstandings.
In that regard, he probably doesn't care much for me, because I have zero background in plant biology or any hard sciences (I sell real estate, I'm no horticulturalist, just a lifelong hobbyist) and literally everything I post on this forum as advice or guidance is based on my own personal experience. So with that said, I should have posted that "IN MY EXPERIENCE, you should always remove the large fans that block airflow and light to interior budsights -- that's necessary regardless of what you think about "defoliation" as it is typically discussed on forums like this." It should also be mentioned that I grow vertically and my requirements for my plants are different than what someone else may need, say, for example, someone like Uncle Ben who it appears grows larger plants to apical dominance under horizontal lighting.
In my experience, it is critical to open up as much airflow in the grow space as possible, and I do so at the expense of whatever benefit may be gained from not trimming large fans and allowing them to remain. I'll post a photo to illustrate what I mean; the plants below probably had 20-30 or more large fans each removed throughout flowering, and had I not done so, I would have had an absolute mess of budrot and underdeveloped budsites in that 4x4 tent.
In any case, again, understand the frustration to see misinformation spread and stoner science and red-eyed conjecture suck and really do muddy the waters...but you could probably approach it in a more effective and less abrasive way in the future. Take it easy.
BobCajun
Well-Known Member
I do trim to reduce shading by upper fan leaves, but rather than removing the leaves I cut off the outer half of the leaflets, meaning the tip and a couple inches of leaf. I just grab them in one hand bunching several leaflets together and clip them off with scissors, or even just sheer them off with my thumbnail while holding them in the same hand. It's just cleaner cuts with scissors. You can usually only grab the middle three longest leaflets but cutting those ones in half reduces the majority of the shading anyway. To the plant, it's like an animal did some grazing or some bugs ate some leaf. They put out extra leaf in case of that. When you trim some off, the remaining part stays perfectly healthy. The upper leaves put out the florigen that produces the buds so it's a bad idea to completely remove them.
Flowki
Well-Known Member
From the soil and then upto around 6-10 inches of every plant (about 2 foot total) is a big shadow bushy area receiving no light. In that area are some stems that gre into it but at this point will never reach the canopy or light area. Is it a good idea to at-least cut away those few entire stems that never made it to the top?.