defoliation when in flower

[Canna_Man]

I don't defoliate but I do lollipop my plants. Removing 10 or so fan leafs to minimize any popcorn buds is not going to be the end of the world.

I think that indoor you need to do some form on canopy management. Outdoor I wouldn't touch a plants leafs at all.

Lollipopping is defoliation, you are removing foliage when you lollipop. I think the bigger issue is the term in itself. And removal of branches and leaves is defoliating.

Some people call it selective leaf pruning whatever you want to call it. Removing some interior site blocking fan leaves is fine. And lollipopping works if you are growing for sea of green or in densely packed rooms. The light just isnt going to penetrate and get to the bottoms so no good production occurs down there.

Timing is everything. You never want to stress your plants out or remove too many leaves or like mentioned many times will screw up the plants ability to breathe and regulate co2 and oxygen etc.. I never found anything wrong with removing a few leaves here and there or lollipopping so long as it is done at the right times and for a purpose. Good growing

 

[medicalgrowguy]

you can't cut them all......ya got to save at least a few
View attachment 3481223

mono crop all day haha

 

[Darth Vapour]

Like i said train your plants so you have as many buds sites at the light source is the only way to get yields ,, clean under carriage of its larfy useless buds clean some lower eas as to get decent air movement but leave it grow them leafs are there for a purpose i your not getting decent yields then add more light Light does travel through leafs so half way down the plant buds should normally be good anything lower should in fact been cut of and kept trimming off as them sucker buds take energy away from the pay zone

 

[weedenhanced]

You ever noticed that it's always the next crop of noobs that are drawn to such gimmicks and are too damn lazy to do a search before starting a thread on the same old stupid practice.

If u do research and google it there is many sites claiming that defoilation is good
So by doing research u will Infact think it's good lol
There is many hi tech defoilation ect bullshit out there

 

[BobCajun]

Something I've been thinking about is that when you get to the point where lower leaves are dying from lack of light, like about week 3 of flowering, maybe it would be good to remove a bunch of the large upper leaves so the lower ones won't die. It would be like sacrificing one for the other, no net loss just changing the location of the leaf canopy from top to bottom.

I know it sounds crazy to remove healthy new upper leaves but consider the fact that only about a foot of canopy depth can get enough light to live anyway. Wouldn't it be better to have that foot of canopy at the bottom of the plants and above that have all the side buds fully exposed to the premium light? You would also trim off all the small shoots from the bottom canopy area, so it's a pure leaf zone with good ventilation so the sugar factories can do their job efficiently.

I would also top most of the upper shoots so that all those buds along the defoliated shoots would become like main buds. Powered by a canopy of old large leaves at the bottom, those buds would become fat. Eventually all the buds would probably fill in and shade the bottom canopy, at which point it would no longer be needed.

 

[Uncle Ben]

If u do research and google it there is many sites claiming that defoilation is good

Yes, when it comes to cannabis anecdotal evidence and self annointed experts.....

"a thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong."

 

[Uncle Ben]

Something I've been thinking about is that when you get to the point where lower leaves are dying from lack of light, like about week 3 of flowering,

They die because folks screw them up by applying bloom foods. Has nothing to do with light.

 

[mr sunshine]

They die because folks screw them up by applying bloom foods. Has nothing to do with light.

How far into flower do you start using the bloom foods?

 

[BobCajun]

They die because folks screw them up by applying bloom foods. Has nothing to do with light.

No they die from lack of light alright. I just give em straight 2 part hydro nutes. There's no light down there so they're obviously going to get light green and die.

So anyway I just did a test of my little theory so we'll see. I took off the tops and all leaves from the upper 8-10". There was so much bottom leaf that light still can't get directly to the pot area so those upper leaves were apparently redundant. Right now the tops are sticks with little budlets along them, but in a few weeks the whole upper parts of the plants will be pure buds which are each almost the same size as the original top buds would have been. It'll be like probably 100 buds, each maybe 3-5 grams. This was about 3.5 weeks in. There was WAY too much leaf. I got a shopping bag full. As long as you don't take more than 50% of the foliage off you should be okay. That's what they found with cowpeas anyway, no reduction in yield.

 

[Uncle Ben]

How far into flower do you start using the bloom foods?

never

 

[Uncle Ben]

No they die from lack of light alright. I just give em straight 2 part hydro nutes. There's no light down there so they're obviously going to get light green and die.

If you're losing leaves (prematurely) it's because you have not dialed it in. Sure, I lose a few lower leaves but very few and my indoor plants were packed into a very confined area. How do you think I'm able to do a double harvest? You can't pull it off unless you have lower leaves left which drives bud production. Because of forum misguided paradigms, few will be able to do it unless they learn what makes a plant tick.

Here's part (probably 70%) of the main cola:



Here's the future secondary (double) harvest:

 

[Uncle Ben]

Like i said train your plants so you have as many buds sites at the light source is the only way to get yields ,,

That is simply not true. That is another one of those forum myths that "becomes the truth" because it's parroted by folks who don't understand plant processes.

Tell that to a peach, apple, pear, grape, pecan, etc. grower. You'll be laughed right out of the orchard.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Lollipopping is defoliation, you are removing foliage when you lollipop. I think the bigger issue is the term in itself. And removal of branches and leaves is defoliating.

Some people call it selective leaf pruning whatever you want to call it. Removing some interior site blocking fan leaves is fine.

Tell that to someone who is densely packing their garden. https://www.rollitup.org/t/fuck-working.891342/page-4#post-12110715

 

[BobCajun]

If you're losing leaves (prematurely) it's because you have not dialed it in. Sure, I lose a few lower leaves but very few and my indoor plants were packed into a very confined area. How do you think I'm able to do a double harvest? You can't pull it off unless you have lower leaves left which drives bud production. Because of forum misguided paradigms, few will be able to do it unless they learn what makes a plant tick.

Here's part (probably 70%) of the main cola:

View attachment 3553358

Here's the future secondary (double) harvest:

View attachment 3553341

My plants tend to stretch quite high and are closely spaced so the lower leaves do indeed die. I'll see a few hanging limply or drying quite often, and if I don't pick them out they will breed mold. They didn't miss those upper leaves I removed at all. The remaining budlets just get leafy at the bottoms to make up the missing foliage. The fact that the roots had grown enough to feed a bunch of leaves that suddenly got removed means that those extra roots can then feed the upper budlets with extra nourishment, resulting in rampant growth.

I think that's why plants grow back so fast after defoliation, because of the high root to foliage ratio. They will quickly regain their former size and then go back to normal growth rate as the root/foliage ratio gets back in balance. But in the meantime, more bud sites got direct light. When those bud leaves also get big enough to shade lower buds it's time to hit em again.

 

[BobCajun]

Actually, the stems I defoliated when they only had tiny budlets on them are slow to refoliate. The bottom leaf doesn't seem to be sending them much food. Maybe leaves only feed budlets that are very close by. Any closer budlets would scavenge all the nutrients before they could reach the ones at the top of the defoliated stem. I think I should have left one leaf at the top right beneath where I clipped the tip off at least.

Another idea is to cut off off the ends of the lobes of the leaves, about halfway from the tips like people sometimes do with cuttings to reduce transpiration. Cutting the leaf tips off doesn't seem to hurt the cuttings much and should be less stressful than full removal. It'll be laborious though, going around trimming each leaf.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

That is simply not true. That is another one of those forum myths that "becomes the truth" because it's parroted by folks who don't understand plant processes.

Tell that to a peach, apple, pear, grape, pecan, etc. grower. You'll be laughed right out of the orchard.

it's true to a degree man, sure outside maybe not so much, but inside? Sure.
How many orchard growers are using indoor lighting?
Especially if you use "flat" lights, t5s, leds, etc.
We all know the intensity of the light diminishes significantly with distance, so exposing more growing sites to the light at it's most intensity will get you more flowers.
Gotta remember fruit doesn't grow the same as flowers.
All those fruit trees you mentioned don't grow at the top of the trees either.

I humbly disagree though, and my statement sure isn't based on "forum myths"

 

[purplehays1]

some defoliation will help to produce a higher quality denser bud. In my trials i have found that not removing any foliage results in the highest yield, but also results in a varying quality of bud. If you defoliate and allow light to reach all flowers equally (or close) you end up with more consistent quality and density but lower yield. When i was growing professionally i would defoliate to produce the most top quality saleable product. Now that i grow only for myself i tend to not defoliate nearly as much as i dont mind having the product vary in quality slightly as i am smoking it myself and dont have to worry about it looking perfect for prospective customers.

additionally defoliation will cause HUGELY varied results depending on strain. I am currently growing DNA's OG LA Affie (not an og kush) and it is a pure indica and requires NO DEFOLIATION to get dense nugs even on the bottom of plants that get nearly no light. On a plant like this you would obviously not want to defoliate cuz all you would be doing is lowering your yield. On plants like an OG kush, that tend to be more finicky and harder to get a good yield, often require a lot more defoliation to get good results.

 

[superbak3d]

From my experience, letting the plant do it own thing has the best results.

Leave the fan leaves alone, even the lowers. Just let the plant do it's thing. Removing those leaves is simply removing stored up energy the plant WILL use.

Even if those lower leaves aren't getting much light, the plant is still going to use the energy stored in them.

Besides, more leaves = more volume of space = less wasted light.

Do people forget that in like the last 2 weeks of flower, the flowers are going to suck all those leaves dry? That's when buds gain the most weight and density.

The less foliage you have, the less your buds are going to swell up in those last few critical weeks

 

[Gquebed]

From my experience, letting the plant do it own thing has the best results.

Leave the fan leaves alone, even the lowers. Just let the plant do it's thing.s

I have to agree. Ive tried lst and defol and supercropping and so on and i have noticed a significant difference in yield for any plants v3gged the same length if time. I dunno...maybe i wasnt doing any of it right.... still a noob.

What i do know is the less i fuck with them the happier they are and the heavier they get...

I

 

[TommyDuhCat]

On plants like an OG kush, that tend to be more finicky and harder to get a good yield, often require a lot more defoliation to get good results.

I'm growing OG kush and have had a lot of lower leaves become limp, a little pale, and drop off. Would you suggest just letting the plant do its thing, or would it be a good idea to intervene and do a modest ammount selective trimming? If trimming is better, should i start at the bottom or top? This is my first grow still. I am most concerned with quality, but obviously want to minimize loss of yeild. I was thinking of trimming a few leaves here and there along the lower part of the plant with the expectation that the upper canopy and main bud sites will then get more of the plants energy. Im not too concerned with air flow in the lower canopy because i have a circulation fan near the pots constantly stirring fresh air into the lower part of the cabinet. Ill stop here before this post gets too long. Haha

For now i will keep letting the plant do its own defoliation, but im considering the options.

Thanks to anyone who provides input. This thread has been a good read.