Why do some guys wats to still use mono led with cobs?

Add mono's to cobs?


  • Total voters
    116

Growmau5

Well-Known Member
when it comes to math and theory crafting, there are a half dozen people on this page that know way more than me. So I am not even going to try to make an argument for or against monos.
- I did a run, some of you guys saw the video: vintage tech cxa3070 + BML. the yield impressed me and quality was above average. Now, I dont believe in "special sauce", but something about the mix of the 2 lighting styles created something magical.
- I am now in week 7 of the all COB cxb3590 run. results will be documented with accuracy and integrity, as always....

full room.jpg
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
How do you think it was derived for the data sheet in the first place?
so one measures the spd with a deviation of (for example) 1%.
and then one measures lumens with a deviation of (for example) 1%

which automatically provides a 1% x 1% deviation which happens to be greater than 2%.

and then you add on the lumen measurement error on top of that since the "lumen" measurements bias towards the lumen spectrum.

conversions like this are good for estimation but not for precise 1:1 comparisons of leds of significantly different spectrums.

Now I could be wrong, perhaps cree provides lumens\watt data based on actual radiometric data, and interpreted lumens as an estimation of that data.
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
The LER removes the "lumen bias" completely. So the only error comes from the variation in output from COB to COB and the variation in spectrum from COB to COB. The variations will average out, they will not all vary in the same direction. But it is accurate enough to allow us to compare the potential of one setup vs another.
 

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
so one measures the spd with a deviation of (for example) 1%.
and then one measures lumens with a deviation of (for example) 1%

which automatically provides a 1% x 1% deviation which happens to be greater than 2%.

and then you add on the lumen measurement error on top of that since the "lumen" measurements bias towards the lumen spectrum.

conversions like this are good for estimation but not for precise 1:1 comparisons of leds of significantly different spectrums.

Now I could be wrong, perhaps cree provides lumens\watt data based on actual radiometric data, and interpreted lumens as an estimation of that data.
Cree uses a sphere and spectroradiometer...you really think they didn't?
 

Shredderthirty

Well-Known Member
when it comes to math and theory crafting, there are a half dozen people on this page that know way more than me. So I am not even going to try to make an argument for or against monos.
- I did a run, some of you guys saw the video: vintage tech cxa3070 + BML. the yield impressed me and quality was above average. Now, I dont believe in "special sauce", but something about the mix of the 2 lighting styles created something magical.
- I am now in week 7 of the all COB cxb3590 run. results will be documented with accuracy and integrity, as always....

View attachment 3539030
what a lovely room, i see you have lens on one unit and reflectors on the other, which do you like better??
 

EfficientWatt

Well-Known Member
View attachment 3538968

HPS will NOT outperform the sun...EVER.
Plants have evolved over millions (possibly billions) of years to use every bit of the "daylight" spectrum as possible. HPS is lacking in a significant portion of the nm wavelengths and has very low CRI. No, high CRI does not equate to a "full" spectrum in terms of quantified irradiance. But the sun is as full of a spectrum as we know with a perfect CRI that plants can use very efficiently.

Why would this not be the spectrum to replicate?

Did I miss the recipe to outperform natural daylight somewhere??



So we know that most pc-WLED are blue light converted to other wavelength nm with a coating of phosphor. To convert BLUE light into other colors, the quantity of photons is taxed by the phosphor layer.
My point was that LED chips are improving their photon output all the time. Currently lower CRI LED's typically have a higher irradiance because there is less "spectrum tuning" going on. High CRI chips have a lower irradiance, but have more usable spectrum for plants (and people). With LED's improving overall photon output, I wouldn't be surprised if a chip came out specifically for plant growing using the sun as a model spectrum. It might not be as efficient as a royal blue monochromatic LED, but I'd be willing to bet that plant health/quality would only improve.

A lot of bad assumptions on your side imho.

1) Your daylight spectrum will have less photons/J than HPS spectrum, that's a fact.
=> If you had an imaginary HID, with equal efficiency to HPS, but with your daylight spectrum , it would produce less photons. It would also produce more leaf to bud matter, overall bud production per watt will be considerably lower.

2) Plants were originally algue (for most of their photosynthetic evolution and history). Algue did not receive and evolve with the same spectrum as plans are getting today, as the ocean acts a bit like a (inverse) phosphore itself. Algue adapted to better trap the red photons

3) The photon loss is much lower than you think. When going thru a phosphore, it's not so much a loss of photon as a loss of energy of those photons.
Take away enough energy, or slow down a blue photon enough, it will become a red one. It will have lost energy, but it's still a fill photon.


"Photosynthesis is the ability of plants to absorb the energy of light, and convert it into energy for the plant. To do this, plants have pigment molecules which absorb the energy of light very well. The pigment responsible for most light-harvesting by plants is chlorophyll, a green pigment. The green color indicates that it is absorbing all the non-green light-- the blues (~425-450 nm), the reds and yellows (600-700 nm). Red and yellow light is longer wavelength, lower energy light, while the blue light is higher energy. In between the two is green light (~500-550 nm). It seems strange that plants would harvest the lower energy red light instead of the higher energy green light, unless you consider that, like all life, plants first evolved in the ocean. Sea water quickly absorbs the high-energy blue and green light, so that only the lower energy, longer wavelength red light can penetrate into the ocean. Since early plants and still most plant-life today, lived in the ocean, optimizing their pigments to absorb the reds and yellows that were present in ocean water was most effective. While the ability to capture the highest energy blue light was retained, the inability to harvest green light appears to be a consequence of the need to be able to absorb the lower energy of red light.

Plants also use multiple variants of chlorophyll, as well as accessory pigments such as carotenoids (which give carrots their orange color) to tune themselves to absorbing different wavelengths of light. That makes it impossible to assign a single wavelength of best absorption for all plants. All plants, however, has chlorophyll a, which absorbs most strongly at ~450 nm, or a bright blue color. This wavelength is strong in natural sunlight, and somewhat present in incandescent lights, but is very weak in traditional fluorescent lights. Special plant lights increase the amount of light of this wavelength that they produce. But a 400-500 nm wavelength bulb wouldn't be enough, since many plants take cues for germination, flowering, and growth from the presence of red light as well. Good plant lights produce red light as well, giving plants all the wavelengths of light they need for proper growth."

So again a very flatish relative spectrum curve is NOT ideal.

3K/3.5K/4K + according amount of violet/UV + deep red is as close as we can get today to an ideal spectrum efficiencywise, and is probably superior to your static imaginary "daylight spectrum".

You are obviously over simplifying everything, a higher value of every nm on a relative spectrum curve does not mean there is more photons, learn how to read relative spectrum graphs.

:peace:
 
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cdgmoney250

Well-Known Member
A lot of bad assumptions on your side imho.

1) Your daylight spectrum will have less photons/J than HPS spectrum, that's a fact.
=> If you had an imaginary HID, with equal efficiency to HPS, but with your daylight spectrum , it would produce less photons. It would also produce more leaf to bud matter, overall bud production per watt will be considerably lower.

2) Plants were originally algue (for most of their photosynthetic evolution and history). Algue did not receive and evolve with the same spectrum as plans are getting today, as the ocean acts a bit like a (inverse) phosphore itself. Algue adapted to better trap the red photons

3) The photon loss is much lower than you think. When going thru a phosphore, it's not so much a loss of photon as a loss of energy of those photons.
Take away enough energy, or slow down a blue photon enough, it will become a red one. It will have lost energy, but it's still a fill photon.


"Photosynthesis is the ability of plants to absorb the energy of light, and convert it into energy for the plant. To do this, plants have pigment molecules which absorb the energy of light very well. The pigment responsible for most light-harvesting by plants is chlorophyll, a green pigment. The green color indicates that it is absorbing all the non-green light-- the blues (~425-450 nm), the reds and yellows (600-700 nm). Red and yellow light is longer wavelength, lower energy light, while the blue light is higher energy. In between the two is green light (~500-550 nm). It seems strange that plants would harvest the lower energy red light instead of the higher energy green light, unless you consider that, like all life, plants first evolved in the ocean. Sea water quickly absorbs the high-energy blue and green light, so that only the lower energy, longer wavelength red light can penetrate into the ocean. Since early plants and still most plant-life today, lived in the ocean, optimizing their pigments to absorb the reds and yellows that were present in ocean water was most effective. While the ability to capture the highest energy blue light was retained, the inability to harvest green light appears to be a consequence of the need to be able to absorb the lower energy of red light.

Plants also use multiple variants of chlorophyll, as well as accessory pigments such as carotenoids (which give carrots their orange color) to tune themselves to absorbing different wavelengths of light. That makes it impossible to assign a single wavelength of best absorption for all plants. All plants, however, has chlorophyll a, which absorbs most strongly at ~450 nm, or a bright blue color. This wavelength is strong in natural sunlight, and somewhat present in incandescent lights, but is very weak in traditional fluorescent lights. Special plant lights increase the amount of light of this wavelength that they produce. But a 400-500 nm wavelength bulb wouldn't be enough, since many plants take cues for germination, flowering, and growth from the presence of red light as well. Good plant lights produce red light as well, giving plants all the wavelengths of light they need for proper growth."

So again a very flatish relative spectrum curve is NOT ideal.

3K/3.5K/4K + according amount of violet/UV + deep red is as close as we can get today to an ideal spectrum efficiencywise, and is probably superior to your static imaginary "daylight spectrum".

You are obviously over simplifying everything, a higher value of every nm on a relative spectrum curve does not mean there is more photons, learn how to read relative spectrum graphs.

:peace:
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, good sir. :joint:
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
You are obviously over simplifying everything, a higher value of every nm on a relative spectrum curve does not mean there is more photons, learn how to read relative spectrum graphs.

:peace:
You have touched on something I keep seeking the answer to.
The "percent of relative energy" column on the left - How is one to know what 100% is "strength" or "photon count" wise.
Hortilux uses watts as a measure of lamp output strength but what if I want to know the total photon output of the super blue mh vs a super hps both in 1000W?
 

REALSTYLES

Well-Known Member
You have touched on something I keep seeking the answer to.
The "percent of relative energy" column on the left - How is one to know what 100% is "strength" or "photon count" wise.
Hortilux uses watts as a measure of lamp output strength but what if I want to know the total photon output of the super blue mh vs a super hps both in 1000W?
You know this thread is about leds?
 

heckler73

Well-Known Member
Cree uses a sphere and spectroradiometer...you really think they didn't?
CREE also generate their spectra by pulsing at higher operating currents for 25ms, IIRC. Is that how anyone here runs their lights?
Nope...except maybe me with my overdriving experiment.
I can say the spectra generated via pulsing are not equivalent to running constant current at lower values, even though "average power" is equivalent.
Why?
This is what a "typical blue+yellow phosphor" does as one mucks with the current.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Shoou-Jinn_Chang/publication/3291468_White-light_emission_from_near_UV_InGaN-GaN_LED_chip_precoated_with_bluegreenred_phosphors/links/02e7e52580f4c9071d000000.pdf
Phosphor LED current spectra.PNG
Note the relative changes in intensities along with red-shift as the current went up. The paper also discussed (but not show) there is a blue-drift when starting below 20mA and working up to it. LEDs are fascinating devices, eh ;) Kind of like the thermal gradient in the atmosphere; a paradox of activity that mystifies common sense. There are so many factors that can come into play, as well; refraction index of epoxy, grain size and type of phosphor, temperature, die package, reflectors and optics (frequency dependence between Crown and Flint glass?), etc.

The only data of any practical value are the numbers one collects using their own lab gear in real conditions. Everything else is hyperbole and speculation, unfortunately. That's why I don't give much credit to the Excel spreadsheets--although I do commend the effort--because they are theoretical-based. Unless people are replicating the test conditions of the manufacturers, they won't get what they think. Even CREE says that (obviously they have had issues with customer expectations and reality).


However, it ultimately comes down to will it work or not? Can you get the GpW and frost desired? That's the test that matters most for the median consumer in this scenario and is why I said earlier--for the average Ma&Pa DIYer--the masked dready's way is probably good enough. Our collective weeny-wagging contests don't mean much in the grand scheme and are quickly forgotten.

But don't let the experiments stop...keep pushing the envelope of knowledge into new realms of discovery. If there's one thing we "dopers" have on our side, it is an ability to think outside of the box. I for one will continue exploring the monos (and "mono" phosphors...I have a red on deck, right now, getting ready to go in my Beowulf box)

 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
I am not sure that experiment would apply to our application. The paper admits that their phosphors may be low quality and they were only getting 20lm/W from a 6000K-7000K LED.

Cree published chromaticity vs current and temperature data for the CXA2530 in an earlier data sheet. Junction temp causes color shift more than current does. For example if you increase current from 15% to 85% and increase junction temp from 50C to 75C, it would reduce CCx and CCy by about .004 each. That represents a color temp shift from 3000K to 3050K and a very slight shift in tint away from green and toward red. Cree no longer includes this data in the PDF.

They are binned at Tj 85C so what we think of as a 3000K is probably a 2950K the way we run them.


CX chromaticity vs current and temp.png
 
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SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
You have touched on something I keep seeking the answer to.
The "percent of relative energy" column on the left - How is one to know what 100% is "strength" or "photon count" wise.
Hortilux uses watts as a measure of lamp output strength but what if I want to know the total photon output of the super blue mh vs a super hps both in 1000W?


I think what you are looking for is QER. That gives you photon count /PAR W for each different SPD curves. Alesh has done awesome work on this. Generally speaking the more blue the lower the QER will be.
Alesh qer.jpg Alesh qer400-700.jpg

So if you know total power dissipation, efficiency and QER, then you can compare photon counts (PPF).
 
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ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Is there an example of an artificial light source outperforming Mother Nature?
Yes, and more to the point, a good sealed room will stomp the shit out of an outdoor plot in terms of yield and quality simply because the growroom can guarantee ideal growing conditions that outdoor can never match.

At this point, it's about light that's adequate to the task of giving the plants what they need in such an environment as opposed to merely mimicking sunlight.
 
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ttystikk

Well-Known Member
that would be cool but 90%+ of the white phosphor cob market is based on providing light for people not plants.
As a manufacturer, I'd be delighted to build something that's so perfect for ten percent of my market that I could own that segment!

For an example of a manufacturer profitably slicing and dicing markets into ever smaller pieces, one need look no further than 'Mazda', or 'Subaru'.
 

heckler73

Well-Known Member
I am not sure that experiment would apply to our application.

As the title suggests, what is the difference when monos are coupled with phosphors? That's the experiment in question.
Is there benefit or...?
Also chromaticity does not directly translate to wavelengths. It is a peculiar metric related to the 1931 CIE. That 50K translation could be from pumping a myriad combination of blues, reds and greens. The point of my earlier post was that when you drop the current, you're playing with the spectrum ratios in a non-linear fashion, the results of which are somewhat of a crap-shoot without a spectrometer.


chromaticity CREE.PNG
 
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