Basic breeding question.

[GOLDBERG71]

It does if you cross back to one of the original parents. For example, if you got 50NHBW/50MM and cross that back to MM you get 25%NHBW/75%. If you cross those back to the same MM again you get 12%NHBW/87.5%MM. And so on:
View attachment 3375079
Depending on whether the desired traits of the NH and BW are recessive or dominant that is a feasibly way to move more towards MM while retaining the best features (well, their genes) from the NH and BW. See this thread for more extensive examples: https://www.rollitup.org/t/backcrossing-your-own-variety.840329/

Hold on a second. I fully understand your chart and did before I saw it. But ALL I have is a 50/50 cross and there is no pure MM available if there was I wouldn't have started this thread. Great answer but I can't apply it.

 

[GOLDBERG71]

Since MM is Thai and Colombian, you could use a Columbian or Thai to cross with and see if that brings back the desired traits.

I am using a landrace sativa (Mulanje Gold) to cross with several clone only strains and getting some very good results. The one I crossed with blue dream has blue tinted buds



Cheers,
Mo

Yes. But I believe it's a inline breed of Thai/Colombian. Then the gene % would actually be going down for one side and up on the other. My goal would be to keep the Thai/ Colombian at 50/50 while trying to get the haze features to appear more often.

 

[GOLDBERG71]

This is where you find new stuff! landraces!
great breeding mohican.

There aren't many of them left. I know there are a few. But few and far between.

 

[GOLDBERG71]

Since MM is Thai and Colombian, you could use a Columbian or Thai to cross with and see if that brings back the desired traits.

I am using a landrace sativa (Mulanje Gold) to cross with several clone only strains and getting some very good results. The one I crossed with blue dream has blue tinted buds



Cheers,
Mo

I have searched for Thai and columbian and the ones I've found are from sites and breeders I've never heard of. I've only bought MNS or serious seeds. I prefer original breeders. So other than AK 47 everything I've run was MNS gear other than 5 free dinafem beans. Any suggestions on REAL Colombian or Thai?

 

[Sativied]

Hold on a second. I fully understand your chart and did before I saw it. But ALL I have is a 50/50 cross and the is no pure MM available if there was I wouldn't have started this thread. Great answer but I can't apply it.

Ah yes, I see you actually mentioned that specifically in another reply, my bad.

In short, what you suggest (breeding the non-MM genes out of the cross so it becomes more MM) is theoretically doable, and if it's a few traits may even be doable in practice after enough generations and/or large enough plant counts. However, the amount of plants in one generation that will have have the desired genotypes all in one plant will be very small and all in all it will be as much work as basically creating a new stable strain from a crossbreed.

The upside is that once you start, and with that amount of seeds, you have good chances of finding something that is better, end up creating more like an improved version than simply more MM.

 

[GOLDBERG71]

Ah yes, I see you actually mentioned that specifically in another reply, my bad.

In short, what you suggest (breeding the non-MM genes out of the cross so it becomes more MM) is theoretically doable, and if it's a few traits may even be doable in practice after enough generations and/or large enough plant counts. However, the amount of plants in one generation that will have have the desired genotypes all in one plant will be very small and all in all it will be as much work as basically creating a new stable strain from a crossbreed.

The upside is that once you start, and with that amount of seeds, you have good chances of finding something that is better, end up creating more like an improved version than simply more MM.

Now we're talking. This is why I am trying to think before doing. I've got 2 different rooms. In total I treat it like 3 different grows. This way about every 3-4 weeks I'm harvesting 10-12 plants. Each section has replacements ready to go as soon as the area is cleaned. So the thing I see that will slow me down the most (after finding the right selection ) would be having to run the selected female(s) for a second time to get pollen. Even if I collected pollen from the selection I have(which I'm working on now but I can't take cuttings yet it's to small) in order to use it I'd have pollinate every female to produce seeds from each because i can't select until finished. However, that wouldn't work in future generations (because I'd have to flower that cut again and spray it with CS.) In the end this might be faster. Ive already created female pollen so that's no issue. Making and using collateral silver is easy but some strains don't make much pollen and others make tons.

 

[bf80255]

There aren't many of them left. I know there are a few. But few and far between.

lots of landrace populations from all around the world and they are very easily accessible it just takes a bit of digging, look into ACE seeds they actually source landraces from their counties of origin and work them into really nice gear.

or the better alternative is to make some contacts, get a plane ticket and find an isolated landrace population yourself, the chances of it being geneticlly unique from all of everyone elses gear goes waaaaay up in that case. just because someone has china yunnan or malawi gold doesnt mean they have all of the genes from that landrace, just what they managed to get back and what they thought to select for.

just a thought

 

[GOLDBERG71]

lots of landrace populations from all around the world and they are very easily accessible it just takes a bit of digging, look into ACE seeds they actually source landraces from their counties of origin and work them into really nice gear.

or the better alternative is to make some contacts, get a plane ticket and find an isolated landrace population yourself, the chances of it being geneticlly unique from all of everyone elses gear goes waaaaay up in that case. just because someone has china yunnan or malawi gold doesnt mean they have all of the genes from that landrace, just what they managed to get back and what they thought to select for.

just a thought

Plain and simple I don't have the balls I did when I was younger. I brought home beans from NL after a trip to the cannabis cup. I do love the concept of traveling ect. But once again it's something I would have tried years ago. Now a days after 9/11 I wouldn't risk it for anything. I have looked into ACE. I can't recall the name but there is a Dutch breeder who supposedly still breeds the original haze seeds. They bought the last of the haze brothers genetics. High times and other places seem to confirm this also. It's going to be at least a year before I attempt this. I have plenty of strains and selecting to do over the next year. But thanks for the input.

 

[bf80255]

Plain and simple I don't have the balls I did when I was younger. I brought home beans from NL after a trip to the cannabis cup. I do love the concept of traveling ect. But once again it's something I would have tried years ago. Now a days after 9/11 I wouldn't risk it for anything. I have looked into ACE. I can't recall the name but there is a Dutch breeder who supposedly still breeds the original haze seeds. They bought the last of the haze brothers genetics. High times and other places seem to confirm this also. It's going to be at least a year before I attempt this. I have plenty of strains and selecting to do over the next year. But thanks for the input.

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-shantibaba-mrnice/1606-origins-haze.html

Sam Skunkman supposedly got the Haze brothers stock but ive read 4 or 5 different stories and with the news of Sam being a Narc all those years I really dont know what to beleive anymore

 

[bf80255]

Plain and simple I don't have the balls I did when I was younger. I brought home beans from NL after a trip to the cannabis cup. I do love the concept of traveling ect. But once again it's something I would have tried years ago. Now a days after 9/11 I wouldn't risk it for anything. I have looked into ACE. I can't recall the name but there is a Dutch breeder who supposedly still breeds the original haze seeds. They bought the last of the haze brothers genetics. High times and other places seem to confirm this also. It's going to be at least a year before I attempt this. I have plenty of strains and selecting to do over the next year. But thanks for the input.

have you checked out Tom hills Haze? some real trip weed for yah right there

 

[GOLDBERG71]

have you checked out Tom hills Haze? some real trip weed for yah right there

No but I've heard of Tom. Only a few varieties if memory serves me correctly. The Flying Dutchmen is who I was thinking of their original haze. I believe one of the places I've read they had the original hazes was an interview of Sam. He was friends and neighbors of theirs or so it's said?! I haven't read of anyone questioning that part of the story. But with that said as you mentioned with him turning narc could you ever trust him? Not me in a business deal.

But in the interview his point was that if you wanted a practical haze with little work needed then Neville haze is probably the best place to go. But if you wanted to "work" or simply take the time to find and old wonder that isn't "completed" and could take for ever to finish then the Flying Dutchmen is the way to go.

From what I've read the haze brothers never finished working or "stabilizing" any of their work. So there were many phenos within all their batches. And at no time did they repeat a cross is how I understand it. Nevil only got a few seeds to pop and from that only 2 males where worth working with. So he had no choice but to cross and or inline breed. From what I've read the Flying Dutchmen got his hands on the genetics straight from the haze brothers when they quit or what ever they did? Just think if they kept up their work? But Nevil got his hands on it from Sam before the whole fed thing.

I've got no dog in this race. But before I ordered my very first order I did a lot of research. White widow was surely going to be in my first order. (I stared at pics of that strain for over a decade) Personal choice but before I realized how bad the seed game is I already decided my money was going to go to original breeders only. Its simple for me we'd all have nothing special if it wasn't for them. They've done it the longest. Maybe even made the most mistakes and learned from them. So I'll be the last guy rewarding those who take their work and breed seeds from them and sell under another name. Even the crosses. I'd prefer getting both parental strains and doing my own selecting. I would cheat and cross 2 females because I wouldn't be selling beans and it would save me tons of time sexing plants.

That's where I'm at now. I've already done test drives using CS to reverse a female for pollen. That's easy but what collecting and storing it I haven't done correctly yet. But a can do math and have a selected female reversed at the right time to place in a separate tent with multiple partners and a fan.

So my choice was to start with MR NICE. I've either run or have every strain I want. I've learned a lot and know what I'm looking for now. So I'm only buy spring and winter cleanings of strains that I think would be good to work with. I'm battling spider mites now. Those bastards are killing me. I've done everything and can't wipe them out. I beat them back and thought I had them beat twice and yet yesterday I had to bomb everything I have left. I have small pots of female G13/haze, the doors and afg/haze. Then I've got a handful of strains I've kept in a flat about ready for transplant. Just to keep the strain. So everything is in one spot and hopefully I can inhalate them now. My other locations are all empty and going to be thoroughly cleaned and no plants will leaving the area they are in now unless completely clean. Even if I have pop more beans of these strains and sex and select again. I've learned my lesson. It took 4 plus years before I got anything other than fungus gnats. For evermore I'll be practicing preventative maintenance. I guess I've been lucky until now. But once I get past this every move I'm going to be making will be working towards making my own crosses. It's gotten to be mindless work and I've lost interest because it's always the same. I think by working towards a larger goal it will be just what the doctor ordered for me to refocus.

 

[GOLDBERG71]

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-shantibaba-mrnice/1606-origins-haze.html

Sam Skunkman supposedly got the Haze brothers stock but ive read 4 or 5 different stories and with the news of Sam being a Narc all those years I really dont know what to beleive anymore

Yes I've read that before. Somewhere there is an interview of Sam and he tells it a bit differently. He admitted to selling to nev several strains one of which was the haze. But denies dealing with the Flying Dutchmen. He claims that they do have the genetics but bought the remaining stock from the bros themselves when they closed. I think part of the deal Sam had with the bros was not to spread the genetics. So anything is possible. Maybe he was caught red handed dealing with Nev and had to cop to it? And didn't get caught dealing the TFD?
I just finished 4 Nev haze plants I'm not sure I could handle waiting longer than I did for the longest pheno. It was longer than 16 weeks but not by much. That's a relative term. An extra week or 2 isn't much on a 16 weeker. But when you order a 9 weeker and it's really 11 that's twice as bad.

 

[bf80255]

Yes I've read that before. Somewhere there is an interview of Sam and he tells it a bit differently. He admitted to selling to nev several strains one of which was the haze. But denies dealing with the Flying Dutchmen. He claims that they do have the genetics but bought the remaining stock from the bros themselves when they closed. I think part of the deal Sam had with the bros was not to spread the genetics. So anything is possible. Maybe he was caught red handed dealing with Nev and had to cop to it? And didn't get caught dealing the TFD?
I just finished 4 Nev haze plants I'm not sure I could handle waiting longer than I did for the longest pheno. It was longer than 16 weeks but not by much. That's a relative term. An extra week or 2 isn't much on a 16 weeker. But when you order a 9 weeker and it's really 11 that's twice as bad.

Yeah man the origins of haze are clouded in layer upon layer of lies and he said she said bullcrap Ive probably read close to a dozen different threads on various boards about it and seems like no one has a definitive answer and after the whole Sam being a narc thing came out IDK what I believe anymore hahaha

 

[bf80255]

No but I've heard of Tom. Only a few varieties if memory serves me correctly. The Flying Dutchmen is who I was thinking of their original haze. I believe one of the places I've read they had the original hazes was an interview of Sam. He was friends and neighbors of theirs or so it's said?! I haven't read of anyone questioning that part of the story. But with that said as you mentioned with him turning narc could you ever trust him? Not me in a business deal.

But in the interview his point was that if you wanted a practical haze with little work needed then Neville haze is probably the best place to go. But if you wanted to "work" or simply take the time to find and old wonder that isn't "completed" and could take for ever to finish then the Flying Dutchmen is the way to go.

From what I've read the haze brothers never finished working or "stabilizing" any of their work. So there were many phenos within all their batches. And at no time did they repeat a cross is how I understand it. Nevil only got a few seeds to pop and from that only 2 males where worth working with. So he had no choice but to cross and or inline breed. From what I've read the Flying Dutchmen got his hands on the genetics straight from the haze brothers when they quit or what ever they did? Just think if they kept up their work? But Nevil got his hands on it from Sam before the whole fed thing.

I've got no dog in this race. But before I ordered my very first order I did a lot of research. White widow was surely going to be in my first order. (I stared at pics of that strain for over a decade) Personal choice but before I realized how bad the seed game is I already decided my money was going to go to original breeders only. Its simple for me we'd all have nothing special if it wasn't for them. They've done it the longest. Maybe even made the most mistakes and learned from them. So I'll be the last guy rewarding those who take their work and breed seeds from them and sell under another name. Even the crosses. I'd prefer getting both parental strains and doing my own selecting. I would cheat and cross 2 females because I wouldn't be selling beans and it would save me tons of time sexing plants.

That's where I'm at now. I've already done test drives using CS to reverse a female for pollen. That's easy but what collecting and storing it I haven't done correctly yet. But a can do math and have a selected female reversed at the right time to place in a separate tent with multiple partners and a fan.

So my choice was to start with MR NICE. I've either run or have every strain I want. I've learned a lot and know what I'm looking for now. So I'm only buy spring and winter cleanings of strains that I think would be good to work with. I'm battling spider mites now. Those bastards are killing me. I've done everything and can't wipe them out. I beat them back and thought I had them beat twice and yet yesterday I had to bomb everything I have left. I have small pots of female G13/haze, the doors and afg/haze. Then I've got a handful of strains I've kept in a flat about ready for transplant. Just to keep the strain. So everything is in one spot and hopefully I can inhalate them now. My other locations are all empty and going to be thoroughly cleaned and no plants will leaving the area they are in now unless completely clean. Even if I have pop more beans of these strains and sex and select again. I've learned my lesson. It took 4 plus years before I got anything other than fungus gnats. For evermore I'll be practicing preventative maintenance. I guess I've been lucky until now. But once I get past this every move I'm going to be making will be working towards making my own crosses. It's gotten to be mindless work and I've lost interest because it's always the same. I think by working towards a larger goal it will be just what the doctor ordered for me to refocus.

Tom got his Original Haze stock from the flying dutchman seedbank back in the 90's if im not mistaken.

he only has a few strains because he puts his time and effort into each one and ther all old skool IBL's hes worked for decades. Some legendary strains like X-18, PTK and Original Haze

his Haze is very well bred, his focus has been on maintaining variation as opposed to narrowly breeding out most of the traits like a lot of breeders mistakenly do.

Nevilles haze is.... IDK lots of mixed reviews on it, I totally agree bro these guys pretty much created the industry and we should all pay homage to shanti, neville, Sam and all the other old heads that got cannabis culture to explode even in the underground days.

I buy shantis gear but I dont breed with it because everybody and there momma has been using these strains to breed since back in the day, too many better choices out there IMO

can you stabalize the ultra trippy haze phenos?? thats the million dollar question, In all the years Tom has selected for trip plants he still has yet to produce a line with more than 5% trip plants in any population, very complex trait thats probably why the (inexperienced) "Haze Brothers" could never do anything with it.

oh man I hate those little bastards there like herpes, you think its gone then WAM you wake up and have a big crusty sore on your lip lmao or in this case a fat wad of webs on your buds lol

the only way to really get rid of them for good is those pyrethrum bombs man, otherwise they just keep coming back, i had been dealing with that issue my whole last indoor season

 

[GOLDBERG71]

Tom got his Original Haze stock from the flying dutchman seedbank back in the 90's if im not mistaken.

he only has a few strains because he puts his time and effort into each one and ther all old skool IBL's hes worked for decades. Some legendary strains like X-18, PTK and Original Haze

his Haze is very well bred, his focus has been on maintaining variation as opposed to narrowly breeding out most of the traits like a lot of breeders mistakenly do.

Nevilles haze is.... IDK lots of mixed reviews on it, I totally agree bro these guys pretty much created the industry and we should all pay homage to shanti, neville, Sam and all the other old heads that got cannabis culture to explode even in the underground days.

I buy shantis gear but I dont breed with it because everybody and there momma has been using these strains to breed since back in the day, too many better choices out there IMO

can you stabalize the ultra trippy haze phenos?? thats the million dollar question, In all the years Tom has selected for trip plants he still has yet to produce a line with more than 5% trip plants in any population, very complex trait thats probably why the (inexperienced) "Haze Brothers" could never do anything with it.

oh man I hate those little bastards there like herpes, you think its gone then WAM you wake up and have a big crusty sore on your lip lmao or in this case a fat wad of webs on your buds lol

the only way to really get rid of them for good is those pyrethrum bombs man, otherwise they just keep coming back, i had been dealing with that issue my whole last indoor season

I started with bombs. Every 5 days for 3 times. I did it twice. This time I'm dropping it to every 4 days and I'm going to do it at least 4 times. But I'm also mixing a batch of neem oil and azamax and turning the plants upside down and dunking them. Total submersion for about 15 seconds and shaking the stalks. Im doing that the day after each bomb. I just started this regime. I use pro control plus bombs good for 25'x25'x8'. That is bigger than any space I have but I don't care. I'm taking drastic actions at this point and if they don't live so be it. Maybe it's better that way in the end starting from scratch.

Simply because I know I'd do a better job selecting. For some stupid reason off the get go I choose from ONLY the plants that flowered in the time frame stated by the breeders. Prime case in point. When I was working through my 2 packs of super silver haze. I popped a few of several strains and SSH was the first one that grabbed my attention. So worked this strain first and I selected from the best yielders that finished between 8-10 weeks. Well it's also my biggest regret to date. I had one plant that I wound up culling early because it wasn't quit done yet at week 13. It wasn't green but was more of a golden color and I know now that it was heavily haze leaning pheno.

My first order was the only order I've placed not through MNS and came with 5 freebie female seeds. One of which was a dinafem original amnesia. This grabbed my attention and in my research it seems like this is just a feminized version of the haze pheno from SSH. I got a few seeds off that plant and for some reason they're the only seeds I've produced and grown. Since I've been only growing my selected females for years I'm not sure if it pollinated itself or with something else in the room. I tend to pick my flower towards the end of the cycle just for those occasional seeds. I've saved and labeled them all. Anyway back to the point of the 7 I popped 1 was identical to the mom but much smaller in stature. 1 was identical in shape and size but the flowers are even better tasting and more potent. I kept this one. The others all had larger flowers and grew less side branches but there was less flavor but still very strong. However they yielded better. Being free seeds of which I have more of it was easy throwing out the other 6. But every time I run that bugger it reminds me of the SSH I culled.

 

[GOLDBERG71]

Well I've think my battle is going to be over this time. But it might be by killing my plants. I went full strength with both the azamax and neem oil and it might have been to much. The flat I sprayed looks ok but the small pots I dunked aren't looking good. I've got curled leaves and some have turned an odd shade of dark dark green. I knew what I was risking and didn't care. This battle had to end in one way or the other. I about choked when I saw the webs again the other day. It surely sucks but the lesson has been learned. I might be popping some of my spring cleaning packs sooner than I thought. I looked up Tom hill for the haze. Attitude does not stock him and a Google search only lead me to seed boutique. I wouldn't use them besides not having the haze. I sent cash to them it was my very first attempt and got nothing in return. I felt like a fool and didn't try again until years later. It was a good reason not to start growing at the time. Needless to say I've gotten over it.

I really should have just thrown away the plant it first showed up on! But I didn't think the fight would be as hard as it has. Not keeping moms brought everything together when keeping cuttings. They looked clean when I took them.

 

[bf80255]

I started with bombs. Every 5 days for 3 times. I did it twice. This time I'm dropping it to every 4 days and I'm going to do it at least 4 times. But I'm also mixing a batch of neem oil and azamax and turning the plants upside down and dunking them. Total submersion for about 15 seconds and shaking the stalks. Im doing that the day after each bomb. I just started this regime. I use pro control plus bombs good for 25'x25'x8'. That is bigger than any space I have but I don't care. I'm taking drastic actions at this point and if they don't live so be it. Maybe it's better that way in the end starting from scratch.

Simply because I know I'd do a better job selecting. For some stupid reason off the get go I choose from ONLY the plants that flowered in the time frame stated by the breeders. Prime case in point. When I was working through my 2 packs of super silver haze. I popped a few of several strains and SSH was the first one that grabbed my attention. So worked this strain first and I selected from the best yielders that finished between 8-10 weeks. Well it's also my biggest regret to date. I had one plant that I wound up culling early because it wasn't quit done yet at week 13. It wasn't green but was more of a golden color and I know now that it was heavily haze leaning pheno.

My first order was the only order I've placed not through MNS and came with 5 freebie female seeds. One of which was a dinafem original amnesia. This grabbed my attention and in my research it seems like this is just a feminized version of the haze pheno from SSH. I got a few seeds off that plant and for some reason they're the only seeds I've produced and grown. Since I've been only growing my selected females for years I'm not sure if it pollinated itself or with something else in the room. I tend to pick my flower towards the end of the cycle just for those occasional seeds. I've saved and labeled them all. Anyway back to the point of the 7 I popped 1 was identical to the mom but much smaller in stature. 1 was identical in shape and size but the flowers are even better tasting and more potent. I kept this one. The others all had larger flowers and grew less side branches but there was less flavor but still very strong. However they yielded better. Being free seeds of which I have more of it was easy throwing out the other 6. But every time I run that bugger it reminds me of the SSH I culled.

oh yeah good thinking, gotta get ahead of those pieces of garbage or theyll just be back to cost you even more plants and cause more headaches :/

Yield is sort of a tough thing to select for because its a quantitative trait, a measurable phenotype that depends on the cumulative actions of many genes and the environment. so basically itll change given different environments and because its acted upon by several genes rather than a few making it complicated.

selecting for flower time is a good place to start (who wants to waste time on a 14 week when you ordered a 10?)

 

[bf80255]

Well I've think my battle is going to be over this time. But it might be by killing my plants. I went full strength with both the azamax and neem oil and it might have been to much. The flat I sprayed looks ok but the small pots I dunked aren't looking good. I've got curled leaves and some have turned an odd shade of dark dark green. I knew what I was risking and didn't care. This battle had to end in one way or the other. I about choked when I saw the webs again the other day. It surely sucks but the lesson has been learned. I might be popping some of my spring cleaning packs sooner than I thought. I looked up Tom hill for the haze. Attitude does not stock him and a Google search only lead me to seed boutique. I wouldn't use them besides not having the haze. I sent cash to them it was my very first attempt and got nothing in return. I felt like a fool and didn't try again until years later. It was a good reason not to start growing at the time. Needless to say I've gotten over it.

I really should have just thrown away the plant it first showed up on! But I didn't think the fight would be as hard as it has. Not keeping moms brought everything together when keeping cuttings. They looked clean when I took them.

that azamax is really intense, ive lost a few plants to it myself.

yeah hes only on the boo unfortunately, but all his strains areIBL's so they make great breeding tools, wheras shantis gear is all hybrids (little tougher for crosses)

yeah weve all been there, a lot of growers I know wont take in a clone under any circumstance.... and to be honest I think im turning into one of them :/

 

[GOLDBERG71]

that azamax is really intense, ive lost a few plants to it myself.

yeah hes only on the boo unfortunately, but all his strains areIBL's so they make great breeding tools, wheras shantis gear is all hybrids (little tougher for crosses)

yeah weve all been there, a lot of growers I know wont take in a clone under any circumstance.... and to be honest I think im turning into one of them :/

I'm carrying on with my plan of attack. Bombed again today. Tomorrow I'll spray them with the same mix of neem and azamax. I won't be cruel and totally submerge them. Can you explain a bit more why breeding with polys is harder? Because if I lose this battle I'm going start from scratch with the strains I liked to smoke. I've got spring/winter cleaning of many strains already. I plan on popping 50-60 beans of each for a greater group to select from. Then I'll keep the 3-5 best and run them at the same time for a second time to do the final selection. Of course I'd keep this plant. But my plan would be to eventually chuck some pollen myself and make female seeds of the crosses I desired. This would save me the step of sexing. Besides that I don't plan on being a breeder. So although this would leave me clone only plants that doesn't bother me. Until the laws change I can't see using space for males.

 

[bf80255]

I'm carrying on with my plan of attack. Bombed again today. Tomorrow I'll spray them with the same mix of neem and azamax. I won't be cruel and totally submerge them. Can you explain a bit more why breeding with polys is harder? Because if I lose this battle I'm going start from scratch with the strains I liked to smoke. I've got spring/winter cleaning of many strains already. I plan on popping 50-60 beans of each for a greater group to select from. Then I'll keep the 3-5 best and run them at the same time for a second time to do the final selection. Of course I'd keep this plant. But my plan would be to eventually chuck some pollen myself and make female seeds of the crosses I desired. This would save me the step of sexing. Besides that I don't plan on being a breeder. So although this would leave me clone only plants that doesn't bother me. Until the laws change I can't see using space for males.

breeding with polys is no bueno because your starting at ground zero, you know nothing about that plants lineage because its been selected from 4 unique populations and genetically speaking is going to be all over the board starting with solid IBL's you know at least a few of the genes and whether there dominant or recessive etc.

even better to start from landraces... but we dont all have that luxury.

sound really cool, let me know if ytou ever post a log on that big grow id love to watch