Bml or illumitex

[awil7698]

Hey guys been on here a while looking about and can't get any good info on these companies. I want to know which you all think is better the bml spyder 1200 or the illuitex ds. I really like the fact bml is 3x3 so will give good coverage in the tent and according to their numbers a better ppf but the illumitex just looks better made and has a 5 year warranty. So I'd love if any one could help.

 

[SupraSPL]

The BML is (insufficiently) passive cooled and uses red LEDS, probably not a great combo considering how badly red leds respond to high junction temps. I always wonder if they warm the lamps us before taking the PPFD measurements.

The illumitex uses Surexi F3 which are a bit behind the curve in terms of efficiency.

Sorry to be so negative but it is in the spirit of getting better LED grow lamps (COB) into the market.

 

[Growmau5]

I don't know if this is allowed here, but I am going to disagree with Supra, lol And many others here that criticize the Spyder of improper passive cooling. I read these statements a lot on here and wonder if people actually own the fixture? I own the Spydr 600, and my testing has shown incredibly great results. I will admit that in a completely stagnant room with zero air flow from oscillating fans, the spydr heat sinks get a little warm, but still comfortable to the touch, indefinitely. With standard wall hanging fans nearby, the heatsink temps drop 8-10F. I'll take some measurements and pictures to post here tonight.

As far as the performance of the Spydr 600, I have completed 2 flowering runs, with a 3rd run finishing in a week. My first run was 19 zips running an old sublbc cut blue dream (16 plants, SOG, in a 4x4 tent. The second run was over 20 zips with "La Blanca" a strain from seed via Amsterdam mj seeds( 12 plants, 3gal coco/perlite pots). Roughly about 1.5-1.6 g/w.

With all that said, I purchased my fixture at $1099 b4 the price jump, I would buy another , but can't justify $1499 for a mere 320w of dissipation. You can build 2 - 9 cxa3070 top bin fixtures for that, which is the direction I am going now.

 

[AquariusPanta]

@awil7698

Check out heavenbright.com when you get the time.

I'll have some photos (and possibly a video) of the Model-V 4-Series uploaded in the next day or two.

Keep frosty!

 

[SupraSPL]

You are right growmaus I have never tested the BML, I am just pointing out my concerns with the design, remedied by making sure it has some airflow from above. Glad you got such great results.

 

[Growmau5]

If you want to wait 2 months, I'll present some side by side data with BML vs day cree

 

[Growmau5]

@SupraSPL right on man, honestly, I have some concerns with the fixture as well, and as the original poster points out, the illumitex has a higher build quality and is probably a more robust fixture from a design perspective. The way the bars hang from the Spydr is kind of rickidy, their plastic bar connectors and hardware is kinda crappy.

 

[SupraSPL]

I see the BML site says polycarbonate cover. Is that in addition to lenses or a combo cover/lens? I believe it is lensing that is allowing some commercial lamps to perform almost as well as high powered DIY setups (see greengenes results and blowincherriepie also mentioned that recently). Lower powered COBs are closer to the canopy so the may not lose as much although may still benefit from short reflectors. So I have been experimenting with COB lenses to see if we can get a step up in performance for the high powered COBs. The Optic Lighting Vero series incorporates COB lenses so we will get lots of data as those grows finish up.

 

[Greengenes707]

I have tested output and IR temps on the BML 600 and 1200. They are fucking hot straight up no way around it. I was seeing 80C+ and it was early in the show.

Cool side by side of sorts. What current are you running the cree fixture at? A very worthy grow for a thread, many would like that. Plus, who wants to wait 2 months...I want to see it as it goes down.

Illumitex are solidly built. They are very sturdy/solid...feels like quality. And I would agree on BML seeming rickidy...it is just the one connection instead of full stability. I would pick the bml though, it's got more output, and that is what matter in the end.

 

[awil7698]

If you want to wait 2 months, I'll present some side by side data with BML vs day cree

I have 3 months before I need to pick a light so I will definitely be keeping an eye on your thread.

Thanks everyone for the help I think if I go to buy one it will be the bml with a few fans blowing over it I just like the look of it and the higher output it illumitex had an equal power out put I think I would go with it. If I can learn how to put together a cob unit I definitely would consider it. If anyone knows any good tutorials let me k ow guys .

 

[Getgrowingson]

Theres tons of good tutorials on here brother take a look around. its got to be one of the most simple builds you could do!

 

[Getgrowingson]

http://rollitup.org/t/led-build-2-heatsink-200w.869479/

 

[Rahz]

Roughly about 1.5-1.6 g/w.

I'm sure others have bested me under LED, but that's the first time some has specifically stated it. My best so far has been 1.35g/w. Congrats!

I'm in the process of switching from SCROG RDWC to SOG Hempy, so perhaps I'll be able to take back the crown in a few months.

 

[fluxgro]

The BML is (insufficiently) passive cooled and uses red LEDS, probably not a great combo considering how badly red leds respond to high junction temps. I always wonder if they warm the lamps us before taking the PPFD measurements.

The illumitex uses Surexi F3 which are a bit behind the curve in terms of efficiency.

Sorry to be so negative but it is in the spirit of getting better LED grow lamps (COB) into the market.

Supra,

Excellent point on the PPFD claims from LED manufacturers. From my understanding, PPF or PPFD should be measured after 1 hour of continuous operation.

The 1 hour of continuous operation is as important as understanding the distance/mounting height from where the PPFD was measured and was this measured at the center point or were there multiple points across the workplane or plant canopy. See below of one use example........

At 12" above the workplane:

 

[fluxgro]

The illumitex uses Surexi F3 which are a bit behind the curve in terms of efficiency.

Sorry to be so negative but it is in the spirit of getting better LED grow lamps (COB) into the market.[/QUOTE]

Supra,

In response to your comment related to the Illumitex Surexi F3, I suspect that the 'packaged' design from Illumitex has thermal limitations, in addition to space limitations, that limit their ability to introduce higher power and/or more efficacious LEDs.

I would be interested to hear more from your perspective.

 

[Growmau5]

@Greengenes707 my diy fixture is kind of the standard setup around here. 9- cxa3070 AD bin. 3 - hlg185 1400a. Apv12-5 for the 9 artic11s. I hesitated to run the fans at 5v, but everything is running fine. However, if I hold my hand less than an inch from the surface of the cob, it's pretty hot. Not sure if that is normal. I'll start a thread on my grow once I flip 12/12.

My BML must be actively cooled by unicorn farts, because the heat sinks are running 88F at the edges, 92F at the center of the bar. Readings taken with a harbor freight laser thermometer. I know it can be dicey taking readings from reflective surfaces in this manner, so if anyone has a suggestion on measuring temps of heat sinks, I'd be happy to remeasure and post a picture.

 

[fluxgro]

My BML must be actively cooled by unicorn farts, because the heat sinks are running 88F at the edges, 92F at the center of the bar. Readings taken with a harbor freight laser thermometer. I know it can be dicey taking readings from reflective surfaces in this manner, so if anyone has a suggestion on measuring temps of heat sinks, I'd be happy to remeasure and post a picture.[/QUOTE]


Grow,


From Cree:
"LEDs produce light when a current is passed across the junction of the chip. As efficient as LEDs currently are, a large percentage of the input power generates
heat rather than light. Heat that is not dissipated will have not only an immediate negative impact on light output but also decrease the LED’s light output over time and could cause premature catastrophic failure."

"The Tj of an LED cannot be measured directly; it must be calculated using Equation 1 below, based on the measured Tsp, the total power input to the LED and the thermal resistance of the LED as stated on its data sheet."

Equation 1: Junction temperature calculation

Tj = Tsp + θth Ptotal

where:
Tj Junction temperature in degrees Celsius (°C)
Tsp Measured solder‑point temperature (°C)
θth Thermal resistance of the LED in degrees Celsius per watt (°C/W)
Note: thermal resistance can be found in the LED’s data sheet.
Ptotal Total power input to the LED (W)
Ptotal is calculated by multiplying the input current (If) by the forward voltage (Vf)

The design of the BML extrusion leads me to trust your temperature measurements, although my measurements were 20% greater across the length of the extrusion, and 2x on the 'screw'. For the discussion, I removed the "plastic" end cap from BML600 light bar. Notice where the LEDs reside and where the actual heat sinks are located.





Now look at how traditional heat sinks are designed:


The 'heat source' resides on the opposite end of the actual heat sink fin or pin which increases higher thermal conductivity and efficiency.

Now going back to Cree's statement on the importance around proper thermal management design:

"As efficient as LEDs currently are, a large percentage of the input power generates
heat rather than light. Heat that is not dissipated will have not only an immediate negative impact on light output but also decrease the LED’s light output over time and could cause premature catastrophic failure."

When it comes to LEDs.........it is not cool to be cool!

 

[fluxgro]

Correction: When it comes to a heat sink for LEDs...........it is not cool to be cool.

 

[fluxgro]

I thought I would share another example of details in 'thermal management'...

Manufacturer A uses LEDs that are populated on 'tape' that is applied to a thin extrusion that follows a long distance to dissipate heat.

Manufacturer B uses a metal clad PCB that is applied directly to a heat sink that is specifically designed to expel heat to ambient.

It is important to understand that aluminum extrusions, if hot, are doing their job.

 

[bicit]

@Greengenes707 my diy fixture is kind of the standard setup around here. 9- cxa3070 AD bin. 3 - hlg185 1400a. Apv12-5 for the 9 artic11s. I hesitated to run the fans at 5v, but everything is running fine. However, if I hold my hand less than an inch from the surface of the cob, it's pretty hot. Not sure if that is normal. I'll start a thread on my grow once I flip 12/12.

My BML must be actively cooled by unicorn farts, because the heat sinks are running 88F at the edges, 92F at the center of the bar. Readings taken with a harbor freight laser thermometer. I know it can be dicey taking readings from reflective surfaces in this manner, so if anyone has a suggestion on measuring temps of heat sinks, I'd be happy to remeasure and post a picture.

Use a sharpy to cover a spot. Bam no more shiny.