Sexual Transformation

[Dr. Jon]

I admit I'm old, and from a different cultural/social background than most (VERY small town conservative farming community). I can readily agree that Bruce Jenner may see himself as a woman - and who am I to begrudge him his viewpoint? We also live in a world where it is technologically possible to give someone the secondary sexual characteristics of whichever gender they prefer - i.e., with hormones, you can grow breasts on a male, a beard on a female, etc. I won't even argue his right to dress, act, speak and behave as a female, if he chooses. He can change his name legally to Caitlyn, or Betty Sue Penelope for all I care. But does that make him ACTUALLY a woman?

A DNA test will still show him as male. This calls to mind the case of the South African Olympic runner Caster Semenya, who was disqualified from participating in women's competitive running in 2010 based on a rumour that she was actually genetically male. She has since been cleared to compete, although I've never heard what the DNA tests actually showed. Modern technology is creating some difficult issues in terms of gender identification. While I recognize this is a highly unlikely scenario, imagine if Bruce Jenner had gone through this gender change 35 years ago, and then decided to compete athletically as a female. As people go through gender reassignment earlier in life, this will eventually be a real issue.

As a side note, isn't it fascinating that the country that leads the world in gender reassignment surgeries isn't the United States, Canada or any other "Western" nation? Any guesses? Try Thailand, for one, and in second place - IRAN. Not kidding. And all surgeries are covered at state expense in Iran. It's a weird world.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I sometimes see LGBTQ. what does the q mean?

The Q in this case means Queer. While that term is usually offensive when used by a heterosexual person in reference to a member of the LGBT community, it is often used within the LGBT community to refer, generically, to any non-heterosexual person.

 

[desert dude]

I thought queer was offensive?

Only when convenient.

 

[UncleBuck]

Only when convenient.

you face such persecution.

i bet you get all persecuted when i point out what a bigot you are for calling people fags.

total attack on your freedom of speech, eh?

 

[Rob Roy]

Bruce Jenner can do what he wants, it's his / her body not mine, it belongs to him / her.

If I interacted with him / her I'd use the name Caitlyn if that's what he / she wanted to be called.

 

[ginwilly]

I admit I'm old, and from a different cultural/social background than most (VERY small town conservative farming community). I can readily agree that Bruce Jenner may see himself as a woman - and who am I to begrudge him his viewpoint? We also live in a world where it is technologically possible to give someone the secondary sexual characteristics of whichever gender they prefer - i.e., with hormones, you can grow breasts on a male, a beard on a female, etc. I won't even argue his right to dress, act, speak and behave as a female, if he chooses. He can change his name legally to Caitlyn, or Betty Sue Penelope for all I care. But does that make him ACTUALLY a woman?

A DNA test will still show him as male. This calls to mind the case of the South African Olympic runner Caster Semenya, who was disqualified from participating in women's competitive running in 2010 based on a rumour that she was actually genetically male. She has since been cleared to compete, although I've never heard what the DNA tests actually showed. Modern technology is creating some difficult issues in terms of gender identification. While I recognize this is a highly unlikely scenario, imagine if Bruce Jenner had gone through this gender change 35 years ago, and then decided to compete athletically as a female. As people go through gender reassignment earlier in life, this will eventually be a real issue.

As a side note, isn't it fascinating that the country that leads the world in gender reassignment surgeries isn't the United States, Canada or any other "Western" nation? Any guesses? Try Thailand, for one, and in second place - IRAN. Not kidding. And all surgeries are covered at state expense in Iran. It's a weird world.

Unexpected tidbit on Iran, thanks for that.

If you are old as you say, then you remember Rene Richards? She used to be a he, but wanted to participate in the US Open in tennis as a she and won a decision by the NY supreme court to do so.

This is not as groundbreaking as people are making it out to be. This is not some new enlightenment that society didn't know anything about, this is about fame and attention (her being in magazines and on TV so much, not the surgery stuff, I believe that's for real) and selling airtime and ratings.

People who are making her out to be this huge hero for going public are the same type of people who watch reality shows and think it's actually reality.

This is about "look at me!"

 

[desert dude]

And... we shouldn't forget the East German "women's" swim team, some of whom had a deployable rudder.

 

[Harrekin]

Lets use Bruce Jenner as an example

He's gone from Bruce to Caitlin

Do you feel that's legitimate?

Can a man go from a man to a woman if he feels like he's more of a woman via medical technology, or would you still consider him a man?

Discuss

I say fair play to her, whatever makes her happy in her life.

I don't see how other people's opinions matter tbh.

 

[kelly4]

I think he's more woman than Serena Williams, but not Venus.

 

[Harrekin]

I think he's more woman than Serena Williams, but not Venus.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Unexpected tidbit on Iran, thanks for that.

If you are old as you say, then you remember Rene Richards? She used to be a he, but wanted to participate in the US Open in tennis as a she and won a decision by the NY supreme court to do so.

This is not as groundbreaking as people are making it out to be. This is not some new enlightenment that society didn't know anything about, this is about fame and attention (her being in magazines and on TV so much, not the surgery stuff, I believe that's for real) and selling airtime and ratings.

People who are making her out to be this huge hero for going public are the same type of people who watch reality shows and think it's actually reality.

This is about "look at me!"

I agree, I just thought the subject would be an interesting conversation starter

 

[ginwilly]

I agree, I just thought the subject would be an interesting conversation starter

It's like a trainwreck you can't look away from. One the one hand I admire the courage, but on the other, he's a reality tv attention whore out for attention.

It is interesting though, in a weird sort of way.

 

[TBoneJack]

Lets use Bruce Jenner as an example

He's gone from Bruce to Caitlin

Do you feel that's legitimate?

Can a man go from a man to a woman if he feels like he's more of a woman via medical technology, or would you still consider him a man?

Discuss

Bruce is a fucking coward. He abandoned his wife, became a freak to his children (is he now their mother or father?), and should be ashamed of himself.

He brought many children into this world. He's been their FATHER, and now he's a woman? That's fucking sick to do that to your children.

And if any of you believe his children or Kris are OK with it, you're sadly mistaken. They say one thing for the camera to avoid being labeled homophobes, but they can't be OK with it.

 

[londonfog]

Bruce is a fucking coward. He abandoned his wife, became a freak to his children (is he now their mother or father?), and should be ashamed of himself.

He brought many children into this world. He's been their FATHER, and now he's a woman? That's fucking sick to do that to your children.

And if any of you believe his children or Kris are OK with it, you're sadly mistaken. They say one thing for the camera to avoid being labeled homophobes, but they can't be OK with it.

maybe they can be ok with it. Who are we to say

 

[Red1966]

Lets use Bruce Jenner as an example

He's gone from Bruce to Caitlin

Do you feel that's legitimate?

Can a man go from a man to a woman if he feels like he's more of a woman via medical technology, or would you still consider him a man?

Discuss

The suicide rate for post-op transexuals is 20 times average. I don't think changing gender is the cure all some people think it is.

 

[TBoneJack]

maybe they can be ok with it. Who are we to say

Maybe you're right. But many of the reports I've read say that none of them are truly OK with it.

Still, no father has the right to do this to his children. Even if some of his children can be OK with it, I think it's pretty unlikely that all of them can.

 

[Padawanbater2]

The suicide rate for post-op transexuals is 20 times average. I don't think changing gender is the cure all some people think it is.

What's the suicide rate for pre-op transexuals?

 

[Padawanbater2]

no father has the right to do this to his children.

I'm not sure I understand you when you say "do this to his children"

Do what exactly?

 

[TBoneJack]

I'm not sure I understand you when you say "do this to his children"

Do what exactly?

Become a...uhhh...what? Is he now their mother or father? A father should be referred to by a masculine pronoun, right? As in "he", "him", etc? But now their father is a she?

That's fucking SICK to put his children in a position to have to deal with that.

 

[Red1966]

What's the suicide rate for pre-op transexuals?

Don't know