Defoliation, a scientific approach...

[AlphaPhase]

Thanks trevronious, much appreciated, and my comment wasn't geared towards ya bud. Just wanted to put it out there since there are some skeptics posting, iI'd just like the thread to stay on track. We all know plants need leaves and such, but how many is the question. What is the most leaves one can pick with out a decline in the plants ability. This will be different for every strain obviously, some plants it may be detrimental to pluck leaves, but some strains, defol seems to work.

I know the science of why not to pluck leaves, what's limiting is the science of why to pluck leaves. I've had hella success with defol and so have my friends. Strain dependant as always. Not 100% defol. But heavy pruning I like to call it. It would make some people cringe seeing some original og kush mid flower. But at harvest, they would eat thier words.

How big of a plant, when the training started, health of the plant, canopy, plant density, plants hyponastic abilities to environment, it is all relevant.

Abiqua, that's something I've thought as well. Outdoor plants in nature produce much less leaves. The soil sucks usually, the plant isnt getting adequate nutes, and animals come to feast.

Indoor, plant nutrition should be dialed on and abundant (unless your using new mediums and experimenting like me lol).

Plants grown by people produce WAY more leaves. Are the extra leaves needed? Think of it as a millionaire. Do they NEED 15 cars in thier garage? You'll usually find a few of thier cars at an auction to free up airflow in thier garage.

 

[manti]

Just so everyone knows, AP and I have become pals in real world. He knows how I feel about defoliating. I'm not into it
But AP, i love the experiments. It really is the only way to find out. I love to see them fo sho.
Problem is, is with that glue. The gg4 is NOT a candidate for defoliating, if there ever is/was a strain that is NOT a candidate for defoliating. IMO of course.
Plenty of light gets through foliage with that cut
Now, maybe if you run that experiment with the GDP next time?
Please? Lol

Cool that you are open minded on this topic.

I think it would be good to try on both strains. More experiments, more findings...

Yeah gg4 =gorilla glue #4. Very lanky og structure. I've had most successful defoliation experiments with og plants but I've not tried on too many other plant structures. Aero is right though, I don't think the glue would be a good candidate, in flower at least, to defoliate, it doesn't really have that many leaves. I did have very nice results with heavy pruning the mother plants in veg though. I did sessions removing leaves about once a week or so. Here is 2 weeks of growth from the day I started pruning, what I liked is it made the glue structure REALLY compact and if flowered they would have been super heavy yielder compared to regular training. They also recover very quickly. I also removed tops here and there during the training. I don't remove any leaves that don't have an established top growing from the node of the leaf petiole . Growing in hydro could also speed up the recovery. Hydro also tends to grow many more leaves than soil growing, so that's another aspect.

View attachment 3426882 View attachment 3426884

Interesting, never heard of this gg4. You seem to have very different strains in the US than here in Europe...
So you gonna defoliate the two of them only during veg? This would make our experiment a little bit more exact I guess, we can evaluate the influences of veg-only pruning on the plants instead of throwing veg and flower in one single bucket. We can try to evaluate defoliation during flower later on.
The faster recovery on hydro plants is most likely because of the better bioavailability of the nutrients in the solution. I was thinking of growth medium as well and came to the conclusion that it is a good thing that you work with this system in terms of reproduceability. Another thought was, that the levels of consumed nutrients should differ in defoliated plants versus natural growing ones. Would be interesting to keep track of the EC levels in the two groups of plants...
It already looks very leafy on your photos, which are the ones you are going to defoliate and which is the control group? Could you do some side by side shots?

Have you ever looked into mainlining? There's a thread over in the organics section that you might find some useful info in. It's lengthy but if you're after the science (like myself) it'll be right up your alley. Nugbuckets has done some serious work experimenting with it. Link is HERE

Basically the idea is to eliminate any possibility of bottom popcorn nugs through pretty heavy defoliating/topping. The plant is topped early on and the two remaining branches act as a central 'hub' in which the entire plant is based off of. Further topping of each new shoot doubles the 'heads' (2, 4, 8, 16, 32 headed mainline ect.) of the mainline. The idea is to evenly distribute nutrients across the entire plant and end with x amount of equal full sized colas only. Adds about two weeks of veg time depending on the size so understandably it's not for everyone. I was just tired of getting larf across the bottom and absolutely love how the plant responds. Looks very tidy and really shows how amazing this plant is IMO. It took me a bit of reading to understand the concept but I've been using the technique for about two years now resulting in higher yields and overall better quality with the same strains. Again this is just my observation so take it with a grain of salt, but I wouldn't be doing it if there was no benefit. I wish I had the space to do some real comparisons but unfortunately I'm limited to a medium sized tent for personal stuff in an unfriendly state.


Example of an 8 headed mainline. Notice how uniform each top is. Almost modular possibilities with a tomato ring for max penetration. I always run mine with 8 for sake of size.

Not exactly traditional defoliation but I've never had any issues from doing so. Figured it may be worth a mention for here.

Hello Trevronious, welcome on bord...
Actually I never heard the term "mainlining" but at the first glance it looks exactly like what I am doing with my plants. I will look into the post in more detail later, it is indeed very lengthy...
The fact that the large amount of individual colas produces a lot more overlapping or misplaced leaves than a natural growing plants lead me to the theory that defoliation might be benefical especially in this case. However until now it is only a theory as I have the same problems with space and location like you...

Im curious if anyone has studied botany in combination with wildlife science.....

Has anyone ever looked about animal influence [eating] on apical meristem development and apical dominance that is shaped from animals nipping at the leaves and buds etc....?
That has been studied, although probably not on cannabis.....but this could be a good example from nature where "defolation" of sorts occurs and the how the plant responds at those meristem sites.....

Actually I am from the field of Biogeography/Geobotanics, working with spatial analysis of ecosystem diversity and dynamics. The friend I am working with is a biologist specialized in plant morphology and phylogeny.

The influence of grazing on the nutrient balance, plant development and biodiversity has been widely studied. In fact many of the studies I cited in the starting post have this background. As the basics of plant physiology can be compared between plants from different families I thought they might be a good example of what the general expectation range could be. If you find any interesting scientific papers, please let us know. I will update the literature list in the starting post then.

Thanks trevronious, much appreciated, and my comment wasn't geared towards ya bud. Just wanted to put it out there since there are some skeptics posting, iI'd just like the thread to stay on track. We all know plants need leaves and such, but how many is the question. What is the most leaves one can pick with out a decline in the plants ability. This will be different for every strain obviously, some plants it may be detrimental to pluck leaves, but some strains, defol seems to work.

I know the science of why not to pluck leaves, what's limiting is the science of why to pluck leaves. I've had hella success with defol and so have my friends. Strain dependant as always. Not 100% defol. But heavy pruning I like to call it. It would make some people cringe seeing some original og kush mid flower. But at harvest, they would eat thier words.

How big of a plant, when the training started, health of the plant, canopy, plant density, plants hyponastic abilities to environment, it is all relevant.

Abiqua, that's something I've thought as well. Outdoor plants in nature produce much less leaves. The soil sucks usually, the plant isnt getting adequate nutes, and animals come to feast.

Indoor, plant nutrition should be dialed on and abundant (unless your using new mediums and experimenting like me lol).

Plants grown by people produce WAY more leaves. Are the extra leaves needed? Think of it as a millionaire. Do they NEED 15 cars in thier garage? You'll usually find a few of thier cars at an auction to free up airflow in thier garage.

Good that you mentioned the influence of the medium again. I almost forgot that I wanted to point back to one of the papers in my starting point:

"When the external nutrient supply was high, removal of the laminae of fully expanded leaves, which comprised about two-thirds of the total leaf area, did not reduce leaf expansion. When the nutrient status was low, these leaves were of primary importance, presumably because of their role as a source of labile nutrients."

-- Annals of Botany Volume 30 Issue 2 Pp. 173-184. Leaf Growth in Dactylis glomerate following Defoliation.

In fact the abudance of nutrients seems to be an important fact for defoliation. That's another good thing about your setup, as you can provide an optimal nutrient level. The only thing which might be a factor is, that the nutrient intake of the defoliated plants might be smaller than with the control group. Another reason why it could be interesting to look into the EC levels in your nutrient solution.


PS Nice Photos @everyone I always like seeing some tasty plants...

 

[ODanksta]

Lol once again... another defoliation thread... Long time growers like me, don't defoliate.

 

[Darth Vapour]

Well To each there own i believe in under canopy management in stages if you skin a plant your only stalling it when you really truly break it down de leafing to get more penetration to lower buds ??
I look at it this way your light is 20 " above the plant top buds will be the money makers A grade ,, mid plant buds A - B grade anything lower C grade larf shake under developed buds that's a fact .
Cause light is to far away from it ,Then it comes to what does the plant do ?? Well instead of Bud production it changes its hormones to repair mode so what have you done but actually slowed bud production down , so plant is making new leafs that you fucking took off in the first place
And most importantly you added more time to finish your plants cause of it haha in veg you did the same thing ,,,

Then comes the most important factor for c3 - C4 plants is by removing the leaf you effected maine operation of the plant Co2 up take and O2 release so now with the removal of leafs you fucked up the respiratory cycle and pretty much choking the plant out,
let alone effected photosynthesis you know what makes a plant tic co2 o2 and energy ATP , calvin cycle .. RUBP which they use there resources to make Glucose you guys got to get the fucking NPK out of your head or thinking giving plants more of it cause you defoiled your plant hahaha seriously but with fucking up the plants respiratory you also fucked up osmosis oh maybe some of you should read up on that as well
plants do not uptake NPK but rather break it down into something they can use
I think some of you should read up on ATP and the Calvin cycle..

 

[AlphaPhase]

I think I'm going to wait until I get the Grand daddy purple clones to do the experiments, I feel I'm too far into veg at the moment and the pruning should start earlier. Also, I'm using a medium I've never used before (rockwool) so it might be be a good test with my lack of experience using Rockwool and smart pots. But, when I get the gdp clones, I will be in 100% flood and drain with no mediums, back to the way I usually grow, so the test will be accurate.

Cool that you are open minded on this topic.

I think it would be good to try on both strains. More experiments, more findings...




Interesting, never heard of this gg4. You seem to have very different strains in the US than here in Europe...
So you gonna defoliate the two of them only during veg? This would make our experiment a little bit more exact I guess, we can evaluate the influences of veg-only pruning on the plants instead of throwing veg and flower in one single bucket. We can try to evaluate defoliation during flower later on.
The faster recovery on hydro plants is most likely because of the better bioavailability of the nutrients in the solution. I was thinking of growth medium as well and came to the conclusion that it is a good thing that you work with this system in terms of reproduceability. Another thought was, that the levels of consumed nutrients should differ in defoliated plants versus natural growing ones. Would be interesting to keep track of the EC levels in the two groups of plants...
It already looks very leafy on your photos, which are the ones you are going to defoliate and which is the control group? Could you do some side by side shots?



Hello Trevronious, welcome on bord...
Actually I never heard the term "mainlining" but at the first glance it looks exactly like what I am doing with my plants. I will look into the post in more detail later, it is indeed very lengthy...
The fact that the large amount of individual colas produces a lot more overlapping or misplaced leaves than a natural growing plants lead me to the theory that defoliation might be benefical especially in this case. However until now it is only a theory as I have the same problems with space and location like you...



Actually I am from the field of Biogeography/Geobotanics, working with spatial analysis of ecosystem diversity and dynamics. The friend I am working with is a biologist specialized in plant morphology and phylogeny.

The influence of grazing on the nutrient balance, plant development and biodiversity has been widely studied. In fact many of the studies I cited in the starting post have this background. As the basics of plant physiology can be compared between plants from different families I thought they might be a good example of what the general expectation range could be. If you find any interesting scientific papers, please let us know. I will update the literature list in the starting post then.




Good that you mentioned the influence of the medium again. I almost forgot that I wanted to point back to one of the papers in my starting point:


In fact the abudance of nutrients seems to be an important fact for defoliation. That's another good thing about your setup, as you can provide an optimal nutrient level. The only thing which might be a factor is, that the nutrient intake of the defoliated plants might be smaller than with the control group. Another reason why it could be interesting to look into the EC levels in your nutrient solution.


PS Nice Photos @everyone I always like seeing some tasty plants...

 

[AlphaPhase]

I'm not that experienced in growing, it's been about 13 years since I started, but I've grown 1000s of plants and experimenting with defol is no biggy. Certain strains do well with it, some don't. I don't touch leaves at all outdoor. Sometimes I don't indoor either, just depends on some scenarios.

Lol once again... another defoliation thread... Long time growers like me, don't defoliate.

 

[AlphaPhase]

Nice bushes by the way, odanksta

 

[stinkyjoe]

someone put some info on a site about a guy who did a side by side defoliate in flower test , same lights etc etc ... Everthing the same , documented AND PHOTOGRAPHED .... I saw them and they looked fucked .

totally stripped but yeiled (not too sure) ½-1 oz more than the unstripped, I think it could have been more idk?

it wasn't a personal test thread, the guy was just showing another guys test and he decided to do it ....... He had solid proof .

i think the sites down but I'll try find


it doesn't hermie the plant either which seems to be a lost myth imh

 

[AlphaPhase]

Yup, it's a trip to see dude! I've seen 100s of defoliated plants just crushing the game. Always were ogs though, that's all I've had steady success with. (my buddies even defoliated thier og outdoor and were getting 7 units, wwhich imo is KILLER on outdoor og plants)

 

[Darth Vapour]

Yes a buddy did a side by side same strain same everything cool guy totally unbiased grow but and at first it really did look like defoliating was winning in bud size etc but after it was all done and each plant weighted wet and dried .The non touched plants won in yield ..
I am not here to judge how a person decides or what his preferred method is there is lots of factoring in everything like topping , LST defoilating it in fact slows things down but if a person isn't willing to experiment and try different things how will one get better as for my self i prune like i mentioned ..
Remove lower branches even but in stages as to not forcing plant to slow down ..
also remove them lower sucker buds constantly but again each growers room , or limits is at play
For some growers yields mean staying afloat

 

[AlphaPhase]

I'm all for lollipoping darth. Agree with ya on alot of your post as well. I never recommend defol to any grower, I've seen some horrendous defoliated plants thatshould have bebeen left alone lol. It's not something one can do and just pluck of all leaves expecting mind blowing results, it is a ttechnique in a way that needs special care and needs to be done properly. What I notice is when a leaf is pulled off,the node didistance decreases dramatically. Also, hyponastic response (due to plant crowding/ leaves overlapping) causes serious stretch of the branch. So, in a dense canopy with many plants neighboring each other, clipping a leaf off that is overlapping ANOTHER plant, has a positive effect (sometimes, again strain dependant). Hyponastic response can be a bitch when growing with height limitations. Proper heavy pruning can lessen the stretch greatly and works well for canopy control, especially growing multiple strains crowded together in the same area.

 

[Aeroknow]

Yes a buddy did a side by side same strain same everything cool guy totally unbiased grow but and at first it really did look like defoliating was winning in bud size etc but after it was all done and each plant weighted wet and dried .The non touched plants won in yield ..
I am not here to judge how a person decides or what his preferred method is there is lots of factoring in everything like topping , LST defoilating it in fact slows things down but if a person isn't willing to experiment and try different things how will one get better as for my self i prune like i mentioned ..
Remove lower branches even but in stages as to not forcing plant to slow down ..
also remove them lower sucker buds constantly but again each growers room , or limits is at play
For some growers yields mean staying afloat

Yeah, I shave my pubes and my dick looks bigger type of thing

 

[AlphaPhase]

Lol ^^ it's the opposite with plants tho, it makes em look so bare and smaller

 

[skunkd0c]

There has been lots of studies on this field and in most cases the defoliating lost .
Defoliating can be taken in many ways Pruning ?? if this is the case then by all means prune shape design your plant . in stages and in veg state
but removal of actual leafs is beyond what a person should really do its the driving force of the plant its only slows plants growth rates by stress it can also hermie the plant if strain is unstable .. creating also in balance in plants respiratory functions
These plants have grown and adapted for thousands of years its only function is to produce off spring in reality and lots of it ..
If that is the case then the plant would of evolved to naturally drop its leafs to produce more ???
Is this the case today ??? NOPE a plant will drop its leafs once there is no more sugars n starches in that leaf bank
All you have done by removing leafs is taken away the very thing plants need to survive ,, its not the NPK you feed it its what the plants converts it to and stores in its leafs for daily use and banked for later use
all you have done is taken away the batteries in the plant.
don't waste your fucking time with it train the plant for as many tops near any light source keep her green as long as you can in veg n flower and the plant will reward you
If anything remove them sucker buds in deep and low in the plant that are 4 feet away from light source .. they will never develop but rather suck the life out of the plant ,, hence sucker buds , suckers on tomato plants etc ..
so removal of lower buds sites , branches so plant can work on the quality buds sites on the plant in the money light zone

can you explain why a sativa dominated phenotype of similar size can grow and produce equal or more yield naturally growing with fewer leaves than its indica dominated very leafy sister ?

if the amount of bud a plant produced was entirely based on the amount of leaves a plant produces naturally or finishes with at harvest
then leafy indica sisters should always out yield their sativa siblings

the amount of leaves a cannabis plant makes naturally varies hugely
some of them need a little help imo

peace

 

[skunkd0c]

The leaf pattern is so amazingly precise in placement there's no doubt in my mind that this plant has its shit together and knows how many and where to put the leaves as it grows.

some plants grow in the most beautiful shape and seem to produce the perfect amount of leaves
with very little overlap or shading these tend to be sativas or sativa crosses

i find many plants mostly indicas grow in an unhelpful shape with lots of overlap and shading if left to grow naturally
without any kind of intervention they would suffer overall, this could include problems with mold etc and light green/white under developed lower buds
when growing seeds its hard to predict how big plants will finish, and some simply outgrow the space
i would employ whatever is necessary to allow light and air to fall over as much of the green surface area as possible, i try to find a balance, with the goal of keeping as many leaves as possible
while allowing the small and large leaves directly coming out of the colas to receive direct light

i do not look at the plants individually but more as a collection of branches tightly packed into a space
i generally thin out the weaker branches and keep the thickest growth from all the plants
i may remove a leaf from one plant that covers the cola of another separate plant/branch but if i can tuck it out of the way and keep it i will do that first

just as many phenotypes do not produce significant floral clusters/ colas when flowering and also show other undesirable traits during flower
i do not believe all cannabis plants are genetically perfect or the same, some are much better than others
i am quite happy to chop them or bend them to fit into my environment

peace

 

[Darth Vapour]

can you explain why a sativa dominated phenotype of similar size can grow and produce equal or more yield naturally growing with fewer leaves than its indica dominated very leafy sister ?

if the amount of bud a plant produced was entirely based on the amount of leaves a plant produces naturally or finishes with at harvest
then leafy indica sisters should always out yield their sativa siblings

the amount of leaves a cannabis plant makes naturally varies hugely
some of them need a little help imo

peace

First of all Indica tends to out yield Sativa
Generally speaking the indicas tend to have a higher yield than their sativa sisters. However there are exceptions. Back when I was with Delta-9 Labs we had a sativa that finished in 14 weeks but had a yield that was almost double any other plant we had. On the indica side of things, the OG Kush tends to be low-yielding compared to some of the other indica sisters which can be mega yielders.
Plants are classified according to a system dating back hundreds of years. Cannabis sativa L. is the binomial name or the species name for the cannabis plant. It is from the family of plants known as Canabaceae, which includes other plants like Hops and Hackberries.

Cannabis can be subdivided into two main subspecies sativa and indica. There are variations to those sub species in the form of hybrid’s and one other subspecies, Ruderalis, which is less common. For our purposes here we will be looking at the differences between sativa strains andindica strains.

Sativa strains originated in an area around the equator and can be found in countries like Colombia, Mexico, Thailand and several African Nations.

The Indica strains originated from a higher altitude and can be found predominantly in countries known for their hash culture such as Morocco, Afghanistan, Nepal and Turkey. These plants are shorter and fuller plants compared to their sativa counterparts.

Sativas will always grow taller than their Indica sisters. Indoors I've seen sativas get as big as six feet while indicas tend to stay short - around three feet.

Sativas can take a long time to finish, I've seen a plant even go over 20 weeks, it was a pure Cambodian with the thinnest leaves I've ever seen. With sativas you could always change the 12/12 photo period to 11 on and 13 off to speed things up in the last few weeks. Indicas have a much shorter flowering time with the quickest indica I've ever seen finishing around 44 days, it was a Dutch strain called Top44. However, generally, indicas are finished between eight and 10 weeks. With added CO2 they will usually finish a week earlier.

 

[skunkd0c]

First of all Indica tends to out yield Sativa
Generally speaking the indicas tend to have a higher yield than their sativa sisters. However there are exceptions. Back when I was with Delta-9 Labs we had a sativa that finished in 14 weeks but had a yield that was almost double any other plant we had. On the indica side of things, the OG Kush tends to be low-yielding compared to some of the other indica sisters which can be mega yielders.
Plants are classified according to a system dating back hundreds of years. Cannabis sativa L. is the binomial name or the species name for the cannabis plant. It is from the family of plants known as Canabaceae, which includes other plants like Hops and Hackberries.

Cannabis can be subdivided into two main subspecies sativa and indica. There are variations to those sub species in the form of hybrid’s and one other subspecies, Ruderalis, which is less common. For our purposes here we will be looking at the differences between sativa strains andindica strains.

Sativa strains originated in an area around the equator and can be found in countries like Colombia, Mexico, Thailand and several African Nations.

The Indica strains originated from a higher altitude and can be found predominantly in countries known for their hash culture such as Morocco, Afghanistan, Nepal and Turkey. These plants are shorter and fuller plants compared to their sativa counterparts.

Sativas will always grow taller than their Indica sisters. Indoors I've seen sativas get as big as six feet while indicas tend to stay short - around three feet.

Sativas can take a long time to finish, I've seen a plant even go over 20 weeks, it was a pure Cambodian with the thinnest leaves I've ever seen. With sativas you could always change the 12/12 photo period to 11 on and 13 off to speed things up in the last few weeks. Indicas have a much shorter flowering time with the quickest indica I've ever seen finishing around 44 days, it was a Dutch strain called Top44. However, generally, indicas are finished between eight and 10 weeks. With added CO2 they will usually finish a week earlier.

sativa dominated (skunk hybrids can finish in 8-9 weeks and easy out yield indica doms
these plants also produce less leaves than their indica sisters

the point being that some cannabis plants can naturally grow with very few leaves when compared to the most leafy plants
so if this is the case, why is it such a crime to remove some leaves from the leafy sister ?
unless you conclude that every phenotype produces the "perfect" amount of leaves

peace

 

[707humboldt]

First of all Indica tends to out yield Sativa
Generally speaking the indicas tend to have a higher yield than their sativa sisters. However there are exceptions. Back when I was with Delta-9 Labs we had a sativa that finished in 14 weeks but had a yield that was almost double any other plant we had. On the indica side of things, the OG Kush tends to be low-yielding compared to some of the other indica sisters which can be mega yielders.
Plants are classified according to a system dating back hundreds of years. Cannabis sativa L. is the binomial name or the species name for the cannabis plant. It is from the family of plants known as Canabaceae, which includes other plants like Hops and Hackberries.

Cannabis can be subdivided into two main subspecies sativa and indica. There are variations to those sub species in the form of hybrid’s and one other subspecies, Ruderalis, which is less common. For our purposes here we will be looking at the differences between sativa strains andindica strains.

Sativa strains originated in an area around the equator and can be found in countries like Colombia, Mexico, Thailand and several African Nations.

The Indica strains originated from a higher altitude and can be found predominantly in countries known for their hash culture such as Morocco, Afghanistan, Nepal and Turkey. These plants are shorter and fuller plants compared to their sativa counterparts.

Sativas will always grow taller than their Indica sisters. Indoors I've seen sativas get as big as six feet while indicas tend to stay short - around three feet.

Sativas can take a long time to finish, I've seen a plant even go over 20 weeks, it was a pure Cambodian with the thinnest leaves I've ever seen. With sativas you could always change the 12/12 photo period to 11 on and 13 off to speed things up in the last few weeks. Indicas have a much shorter flowering time with the quickest indica I've ever seen finishing around 44 days, it was a Dutch strain called Top44. However, generally, indicas are finished between eight and 10 weeks. With added CO2 they will usually finish a week earlier.

In my experience the largest yielding outdoor plants I've run have been sativa dom. Some of them will get 15-20' tall and have massive yields

 

[Darth Vapour]

like this one

 

[707humboldt]

like this one

Yup just more bushy and less like a christmas tree, topped a few times