Why do HID lights have better penetration?

[churchhaze]

I actually don't fully agree with EH about the penetration thing. The beam angle is sort of irrelevant. The number of total photons emitted is what matters, regardless of the angle. Angle is just a trick.

You get better "penetration" by spreading the light out and making it more diffuse, not by concentrating it into a central beam. The term penetration is sort of a bogus term to begin with when using it in the context irradiating weed.

 

[REALSTYLES]

I actually don't fully agree with EH about the penetration thing. The beam angle is sort of irrelevant. The number of total photons emitted is what matters, regardless of the angle. Angle is just a trick.

You get better "penetration" by spreading the light out and making it more diffuse, not by concentrating it into a central beam. The term penetration is sort of a bogus term to begin with when using it in the context irradiating weed.

Teach on Sensi I am your student of the light you and master Supra lol

 

[OneHitDone]

Not to take this thread off topic in any way, I was originally interested in led but prices and so much confusion steered me towards ind-gro. Now seeing all his diy stuff has really sparked my interest again.
Can someone help me understand just where the ind-gro 420 with pontoon that I am using stands next to these diy cob setups?
Not sure if the info ind-gro publishes would be of any help for reference:

http://www.inda-gro.com/IG/sites/default/files/pdf/plant-lighting-resource/1-Measuring Plant Light with Technical Comparisons.pdf

 

[OGEvilgenius]

I think at the end of the day there are a lot of things to consider and not one size is going to fit all.

OG im lost to your height concerns when it comes LEDs, the restrictions are no different for LED panels like the SGS/XGS/RW/etc from A51 (because they use lenses) compared to a 600w HPS, no different with an AT200 using the stock (very narrow) lenses than you would a 800somewatt CMH or 1k HPS (at least me personally- 24-28") and with the wider optional lenses you can treat the AT200 similar to the 600w HPS or A51s.

As for the new tech COBs, as long as youre not stupid about it, theres no reason why you couldn't get within 6" without heat issues (maybe photon OD ie. bleaching) but if youre running them that hard then its common sense not to do that. Just like sticking a 1k 6" away. If you run them at <700mA you can get away with anything. sure 1.4-2.1A youre going to want to think about things. but nothing insanely dramatic, and still probably less than what you would with the equivalent HPS.

for the study, its outdated, we all looked at it and appreciated the testing, but it IS old news, it doesn't have the newer Apache model included, doesn't have A51 (yes EH, you deserve to be in on those), doesn't have the OpticVeros, etc. so of course LEDs are going to lack in comparison, look at how far LEDs come within a couple months time. Let alone years.


Supra that's a kickass picture, I have 7-8 of the same model of flashlights that run a neutral white CREE chip with an adjustable lens and switch for brightness and like you said, narrow it enough and you can see the surface of the chip. Cool shit.

You will get bleaching. I have had plants grow within about 15" of my gavitas and get bleached. I would expect the same from high powered LEDs.

 

[SupraSPL]

diy led,,,sorry cant build my own!! the ones i can buy,, are going to be better in a year or 2...that is the truth.. so why spend money on a led that will be out dated in a year?? maybe u can build leds to compete w hid but the ones fr sale are expensive and will be improved on....so do it urselfers may be worth it, but to the technically declined its a waste of cash...ill just wait.. or maybe someone can build me one,,,ill pay for it,, and do a side by side test in a 4x4 area..nothing different but the lights,,must be same wattage,,to prove or disprove led can yield same as or better....anyone want to build one for me?? ill pin it against a 600 watt hps in a 4x4 ebb n flow... most studies i see are putting an led against a 1k in a 4x4 area,,that 1 k should be covering a 5x5 or better so wile the 1k is wasting light the led is maxing out its coverage.. not a very good comparison in my eyes,,, to do a true compare the 1k and led should be in a 5x5 area or bigger and no led would cover that space exept diys and maybe even a diy cant cover that space?

1000 HPS DE in a 5X5
1000W * .415 = 415 PAR W
*.8 reflector loss = 332 PAR W
332/25 = 13 PAR W/ft²
13 PAR W/ft² * 4.98 umol/s/W = 65
65 * 10.7 = 692 PPFD averaged

Same 1000W in a 4X4 = 1105 PPFD averaged.

600W HPS in a 4X4
600 * .36 = 216 PAR W
* .8 reflector loss = 173 PAR W
173/16 = 10.8 PAR W/ft²
10.8 * 4.98 umol/s/W = 53.8
53.8 * 10.7 = 576 PPFD averaged

600W DiY LED in a 4X4, with 90° lenses, economical design
(6) Vero29 2.0 4K @ 2.45A = 560W
560 * .395 = 221 PAR W
221 * .9 lens losses = 199 PAR W
199/16 = 12.4 PAR W/ft²
12.4 * 4.82 umol/s/W = 60
60 * 10.7 = 641 PPFD averaged

600W DiY LED in a 4X4, with 90° lenses, with Mean Well dimmable
(6) Vero29 2.0 4K @ 2.55A = 610W
610 * .385 = 235 PAR W
235 * .9 lens losses = 211 PAR W
211/16 = 13.2 PAR W/ft²
13.2 * 4.82 umol/s/W = 63.7
63.7 * 10.7 = 681 PPFD averaged

A build like that would be cutting edge for awhile since the Vero 29 V2.0 is just about to be released. The LED would have higher intensity, better spread, better SPD and no 825nm infrared spike. Could be a $1200-$1300 build if you had someone make it for you, maybe Rahz could do it cheaper.

 

[a mongo frog]

1000 HPS DE in a 5X5
1000W * .415 = 415 PAR W
*.8 reflector loss = 332 PAR W
332/25 = 13 PAR W/ft²
13 PAR W/ft² * 4.98 umol/s/W = 65
65 * 10.7 = 692 PPFD averaged

Same 1000W in a 4X4 = 1105 PPFD averaged.

600W HPS in a 4X4
600 * .36 = 216 PAR W
* .8 reflector loss = 173 PAR W
173/16 = 10.8 PAR W/ft²
10.8 * 4.98 umol/s/W = 53.8
53.8 * 10.7 = 576 PPFD averaged

600W DiY LED in a 4X4, with 90° lenses, economical design
(6) Vero29 2.0 4K @ 2.45A = 560W
560 * .395 = 221 PAR W
221 * .9 lens losses = 199 PAR W
199/16 = 12.4 PAR W/ft²
12.4 * 4.82 umol/s/W = 60
60 * 10.7 = 641 PPFD averaged

A build like that would be cutting edge for awhile since the Vero 29 V2.0 is just about to be released. The LED would have higher intensity, better spread, better SPD and no 825nm infrared spike. Could be a $1200 build if you had someone make it for you, maybe Rahz could do it cheaper.

600W DiY LED in a 4X4, with 90° lenses, with Mean Well dimmable
(6) Vero29 2.0 4K @ 2.55A = 610W
610 * .385 = 235 PAR W
235 * .9 lens losses = 211 PAR W
211/16 = 13.2 PAR W/ft²
13.2 * 4.82 umol/s/W = 63.7
63.7 * 10.7 = 681 PPFD averaged

So the 600 watt LED is 1200 bucks, with the labor for someone to build or not labor?

 

[REALSTYLES]

Not to take this thread off topic in any way, I was originally interested in led but prices and so much confusion steered me towards ind-gro. Now seeing all his diy stuff has really sparked my interest again.
Can someone help me understand just where the ind-gro 420 with pontoon that I am using stands next to these diy cob setups?
Not sure if the info ind-gro publishes would be of any help for reference:

http://www.inda-gro.com/IG/sites/default/files/pdf/plant-lighting-resource/1-Measuring Plant Light with Technical Comparisons.pdf

don't do it do you see any big threads on induction lighting?

 

[SupraSPL]

So the 600 watt LED is 1200 bucks, with the labor for someone to build or not labor?

I figured total parts cost at $600 for generic driver setup, $700 for dimmable Mean Well. Hard to judge labor cost unless you have built one. It can really surprise you LOL

 

[OneHitDone]

1000 HPS DE in a 5X5
1000W * .415 = 415 PAR W
*.8 reflector loss = 332 PAR W
332/25 = 13 PAR W/ft²
13 PAR W/ft² * 4.98 umol/s/W = 65
65 * 10.7 = 692 PPFD averaged

Same 1000W in a 4X4 = 1105 PPFD averaged.

600W HPS in a 4X4
600 * .36 = 216 PAR W
* .8 reflector loss = 173 PAR W
173/16 = 10.8 PAR W/ft²
10.8 * 4.98 umol/s/W = 53.8
53.8 * 10.7 = 576 PPFD averaged

600W DiY LED in a 4X4, with 90° lenses, economical design
(6) Vero29 2.0 4K @ 2.45A = 560W
560 * .395 = 221 PAR W
221 * .9 lens losses = 199 PAR W
199/16 = 12.4 PAR W/ft²
12.4 * 4.82 umol/s/W = 60
60 * 10.7 = 641 PPFD averaged

600W DiY LED in a 4X4, with 90° lenses, with Mean Well dimmable
(6) Vero29 2.0 4K @ 2.55A = 610W
610 * .385 = 235 PAR W
235 * .9 lens losses = 211 PAR W
211/16 = 13.2 PAR W/ft²
13.2 * 4.82 umol/s/W = 63.7
63.7 * 10.7 = 681 PPFD averaged

A build like that would be cutting edge for awhile since the Vero 29 V2.0 is just about to be released. The LED would have higher intensity, better spread, better SPD and no 825nm infrared spike. Could be a $1200-$1300 build if you had someone make it for you, maybe Rahz could do it cheaper.

Supra, do you possibly have any info how the inda-gro 420 with pontoon specs out in comparison?

 

[apoulin]

Multiple sellers! Let's see if he's serious.

Haha and legit sellers, that pic looks nice if I do say so myself!

 

[SupraSPL]

They used to claim 60lm/W on the 400 model, I would estimate 25% efficiency. But they may have changed the spectrum since then and according to their new data sheet, the Indagrow 420 emits 533 umol/s and draws 420W. Assuming 90% efficient electronic ballast that is 378 dissipation W. So output of the bulb itself is about 1.4umol/s/ dissipation W, much higher than I would have expected from a fluoro. We don't have the QER of the SPD curve so we cannot translate that into efficiency but if we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume 30% efficiency, that would be about 4.67umol/s/ PAR W. Alesh may be able to give a better estimate on this SPD.


So with those assumptions made, Indagrow 420 in a 4X4:
378 W * .3 = 113 PAR W
* .7 reflector loss = 79 PAR W (reflector penalty may be even worse in practice)
79/16 = 4.94 PAR W/ft²
4.94 * 4.66 umol/s/W = 23
23 * 10.7 = 246 PPFD averaged

By adding the 40W pontoon, assuming the deep reds are running cool and 30% efficient, that adds 12 PAR W. Assuming they are using 90% efficient lenses that adds .675 PAR W/ft², bringing it up to 5.6 PAR W/ft². @alesh do you have an estimate for umol/s/PAR W of deep red LEDs?

In summary, I am a big fan of intensity and I would not recommend the IG420 for a 4X4, but if you already have one, rock it

 

[tstick]

Okay, thanks everyone who responded. I am back to focusing on getting a 360 watt Optic Vero again. I got thrown for a second because I was doing some reading about how an LEC could produce higher yields given the same space and wattage…but…like I say, I'm back to the Optic.

Once I get the Optic, I will be able to open it up and see how "simple" it is…and maybe I can muster up some confidence to make one of my own in the distant future. But there are SO many DIY videos on YouTube that use varying methods, it becomes very confusing to me. I wish there was a SINGLE, DEFINITIVE way to DIY video instructional! Then, I might be able to get it.

A lot of you guys obviously know wtf you are taking about when it comes to all these charts and variables and stuff…but it's over my head, so I just blank out when I see the conversation going that way! LOL!

I mean…IS there an "ideal way to make my own light and a parts list that includes basically EVERYTHING I need to know? Like "Do this, then do this and do this….and then I plug it in and it works better than anything I can buy? THAT'S what I really want to know…but, like I say, I'm just a layman and all this tech talk gets too confusing to me.

If there was a parts list and where to order stuff and all that, that would be helpful.

I am looking to get a light that will be perfect for a 3 X 3 X 7' space. Right now, it's the Optic Vero. I already have an Area 51 and don't plan on buying another one! (even if I wasn't on the "shitlist!" lmfao!!)

Thanks again for the advice and responses in advance!

Anyone?

 

[bicit]

Supra already dissected an optic light, and helped the owner of the company improve it over the original.

 

[SupraSPL]

When it comes to DIY there are many ways to get the job done and many different designs. To further complicate it, the tech is evolving so fast that if we had a cohesive how to thread it would be outdated very fast, especially lately.

The Optic 360W is a great gateway to LED and compromise of value IMO it should treat you well. For full disclosure, I reached out to Optic to verify if they were using genuine components as advertised. They sent a sample and were using genuine parts. Then I did advise on tweaking the design a bit. I did not ask for payment but after they tweaked the lamp and after I gave it a thumbs up publicly, then they offered to let me keep the Vero18 light to experiment with and they may send more to test. They also gave us a coupon code 10% off + free shipping "supraspl" and continue to work on the lamp design. Area 51 is also working on a COB based lamp.

 

[churchhaze]

We had a good thread summarizing the efficiency of each array at different currents... then someone immediately made a thread with a similar title, and everyone bumped that one....

Why would you bump a thread called "Efficiency charts?" when a thread called "Efficiency charts!" was made a few hours earlier.

 

[AquariusPanta]

When it comes to DIY there are many ways to get the job done and many different designs. To further complicate it, the tech is evolving so fast that if we had a cohesive how to thread it would be outdated very fast, especially lately.

I would argue that evolving technology isn't a reason NOT to create a 'craft thread'. Besides the efficiency boosts that we see with the newer generation COBS, I don't see an actual change in the way we wire and develop DIY light fixtures. Sure, everyone has their own approach to making the light turn on but besides this, everything has remained relatively the same since I first joined RIU last fall.

Maybe I misread your words or maybe you didn't include something that would help explain your claim??

Besides picking on you, I would like to point out that (in case you forgot ) you were the one that started a bunch of the 'how to' threads, and they still stand as staples when it comes to doing DIY projects for the first time.

 

[SupraSPL]

I agree it is no excuse, significant benefit to organizing. I was just pointing out that there is a small upside to the fact that we have not done it yet. Maybe a wiki that can be updated would work well

As far as what has changed in the last year or so, I am thinking about COB mounting methods, which holders match up with reflectors, whether to use reflectors or lenses, new CXB models, new Vero models etc. There have been changes in heatsink recommendations, high voltage series drivers, CPU cooler options, remote drivers vs on board drivers etc. Here is something new I have been working on.

My current driver boards are disaster zones. This new design will replace 32 individual drivers and can change from 120V to 240V on the fly. It will increase driver efficiency from 89-90% to 94%. Dimmable and each driver can be switched off individually so you can work on that string while the others are still on.

 

[bicit]

I would argue that evolving technology isn't a reason NOT to create a 'craft thread'. Besides the efficiency boosts that we see with the newer generation COBS, I don't see an actual change in the way we wire and develop DIY light fixtures. Sure, everyone has their own approach to making the light turn on but besides this, everything has remained relatively the same since I first joined RIU last fall.

Maybe I misread your words or maybe you didn't include something that would help explain your claim??

Besides picking on you, I would like to point out that (in case you forgot ) you were the one that started a bunch of the 'how to' threads, and they still stand as staples when it comes to doing DIY projects for the first time.

I think the problem is the sheer number of configurations possible. It would be possible to do a thread on basic skills like wiring, drilling/tapping, but as far as Step by step guide, well there's a lot of approaches. That's a very broad topic, especially if we start throwing more than one emitter on a driver. It's not like there is a 'ideal' configuration for all spaces...

Unless it's something like in this thread. Even then, good luck getting the mods to sticky it. http://rollitup.org/t/diy-led-grow-lights-with-cree-cxa3070-cobs-and-cpu-coolers.805681/

What I would like to see instead, is a concentrated math thread... A topic with all the relevant equations we have been using.

 

[AquariusPanta]

I believe Supra should do a couple of blogs.

@Abiqua has done this recently and I think it's a brilliant approach to give peers the straight 101 on current configurations, without having dodos wasting space. Hell, we all could probably do something similar.

 

[bicit]

I believe Supra should do a couple of blogs.

@Abiqua has done this recently and I think it's a brilliant approach to give peers the straight 101 on current configurations, without having dodos wasting space. Hell, we all could probably do something similar.

I'm thinking @Greengenes707 should do a vlog next time he builds a light