Alternative Calcium Sources

[ShirkGoldbrick]

Does anyone know of alternative sources to calcium than calcium nitrate that are soluble in an a-b type concentrate stock solution?

I would like a chemical something that is unreactive with chlorine, as I'm trying to create a fertilizer that is unreactive with chlorine to maintain a higher ORP. Calcium nitrate sold for fertilizers contains ammonium and this reacts with chlorine to form chloramines, etc.

Calcium complexed with amino acids reacts with chlorine and is very expensive.

Calcium hydroxide isn't soluble enough, among other issues.

calcium citrate may be viable, I know that citric acid potentially interferes with the toxic action of hypochlorous acid. My experiments showed a ~4% reduction in ORP when using a pH down that contained citric acid manufactured by GH in comparison with sulfuric acid. USDA studies caution against the use of citric acid, but I've yet to find the actual text of the study or a proposal of the mechanism that causes this.

calcium nitrate tetrahydrate would work, but it's kind of cost prohibitive at $30-40 per 500g to get it without the ammonium.

Calcium acetate would work, but it's also a bit cost prohibitive.

I can't think of anything else that's soluble enough and or doesn't contain other chemicals that would end up being toxic.

I'm going to test ORP with chlorine on the acetate and citrate none the less.

@Atomizer
@churchaze

I found my ORP at 627 this morning, 20ppm total Cl and 10ppm free Cl after I upped to 1.0EC. Either my ORP probe is way out of calibration all of a sudden over night or I'm forming nitrogen trichloride in the res or IDK. As it stands I think I'm going to go without bennies (they gave me the slime) or any form of sterilization and just control temps as it is right now until I can sort this out.

 

[ShirkGoldbrick]

Oops, I meant @churchhaze

 

[churchhaze]

calcium nitrate. Atomizer may say calcium chloride, but the chloride is not needed in abundant quantities like nitrate is and thus its use should be limited (restricted entirely). Anything above needed concentrations should be considered toxic.

I honestly can't see what the mental holdup is with so many people. Just get calcium nitrate. There's a good reason I sound like a broken record. It's not because I get money every time I say calcium nitrate. It seems like just about everyone will go through hell and back just to figure out that calcium nitrate is the only suitable form of calcium for hydroponics.

In a world where everyone insists on being original.... nobody wants to find there is only one answer.

 

[churchhaze]

Taken a step further, I'm sure you aren't the only one with chloramine in their water, so this unique case of trying to replace teh ammonium in the calcium nitrate double salt seems futile. Plants in hydro do benefit from a small amount of ammonium, so as long as none of the other macro ingredient salts you're using have ammonium, your ammonium levels should be low enough.

 

[ShirkGoldbrick]

It is the only ammonium I have present, but at 1.0EC I end up with about 5ppm. After it complexes with chlorine I end up with 5-15ppm cl used up by the ammonium.

The ammonium in dynagrow is so high I couldn't get a single ppm free chlorine and it smelled like a pool lol.

Uv, ozone, etc. All oxidize micronutrients. Peroxyacetic acid isn't particularly stable. Potassium peroxymonosulfate can free up chlorine from ammonium but I'm unsure of its effects on plants.

To truly have recirculating hydroponics that's void of bacteria seems impossible unless you are growing very chlorine tolerant plants.

 

[Atomizer]

Atomizer may say calcium chloride

I would ditch all but a trace of the chlorine, run drain to waste using fresh nutes formulated for that purpose and not worry about ORP
I`d try running it without any (unnecessary) extras for a month or two and see if it ends in disaster, my guess is it wont

 

[ShirkGoldbrick]

I would ditch all but a trace of the chlorine, run drain to waste using fresh nutes formulated for that purpose and not worry about ORP
I`d try running it without any (unnecessary) extras for a month or two and see if it ends in disaster, my guess is it wont

The trace of chlorine would immediately complex with the ammonia that was there. Drinking water standards, albeit a bit arbitrary line up with the only study I've read in terms of phytotoxicity for chlorine in plants watered via root system (not overhead) in terms of a 4ppm limit. ammonia complexed with chlorine is perhaps even more phytotoxic to plants and less effective in terms of bacteria. I imagine if I added enough chlorine to have 3ppm total and 0ppm free it would be safe, and without any major influx of bacteria in already bacteria free source water it should be stable for a bit at least.

A few thoughts:

Oxone, a form of potassium peroxymonosulfate is fairly stable in solution at pH 6. It might be possible to mix with a chlorine solution or be added by hand or by timer daily to uncomplex the ammonia. It's really just an acetic acid bound to a potassium so it's probably not toxic and I imagine it breaks down to CO2 and water over time. I'm just not sure post 24 hours how stable it is in solution.

A source of affordable and stable peroxyacetic acid would be great. I've looked into stabilizing a form made myself with picoclinic or dipicoclinic acid and it seems like more of an undertaking than I'd be willing to try. I think it's still only stable for a week.

Another idea I had, and I'm not sure what chemical would be ideal for this. What about a chemical that would react and precipitate or otherwise make unavailable the ammonia that wouldn't precipitate or bind to other chemicals in the stock concentrate or be toxic to the plants? If all the ammonia is removed this way before being introduced into the reservoir then there would be no issues and calcium nitrate would be fine.

I know everything will probably be fine without everything but this isn't just cutting edge for growing weed, this is cutting edge for agriculture too (as far as the knowledge I'm privy to). Even without any issues forthcoming the thirst for knowledge must be quenched!

 

[Atomizer]

lol, if the NH4 content of the calcium nitrate is bothering you that much, simply recirc a solution of it through a mature biofilter for a few days. The NH4 will be converted into NO2 and ultimately into NO3.

 

[ShirkGoldbrick]

There's an entire study named for ammonium reducing available chlorine.

I found a synthesis for ammonium ferric chromate which is insoluble. It could be made with just the calnit in solution and the precipitated red powder filtered out. I just can't read German to see the original text from 1924.

 

[churchhaze]

Your issue is 5ppm zinc and 10ppm iron, not small amounts of ammonium in greenhouse grade calcium nitrate.

 

[ShirkGoldbrick]

No doubt that is an issue, but I can't run an orp controller if it's going to dump 20ppm total chlorine into my reservoir either because the ammonium and chlorine complex and lower orp.

 

[BROBIE]

calcium nitrate. Atomizer may say calcium chloride, but the chloride is not needed in abundant quantities like nitrate is and thus its use should be limited (restricted entirely). Anything above needed concentrations should be considered toxic.

I honestly can't see what the mental holdup is with so many people. Just get calcium nitrate. There's a good reason I sound like a broken record. It's not because I get money every time I say calcium nitrate. It seems like just about everyone will go through hell and back just to figure out that calcium nitrate is the only suitable form of calcium for hydroponics.

In a world where everyone insists on being original.... nobody wants to find there is only one answer.

Until Newton came around..............lol

 

[ShirkGoldbrick]

Hopefully the calcium citrate is viable.

The problem with calcium nitrate is to remove the ammonium one must turn it into insoluble ammonium ferric chromate, which has no known use (as far as I know) in and of itself so it's kind of wasteful.

The potential problem with calcium acetate, peroxymonosulfate, or even peracetic acid is that especially with a higher ammonium level quartenary ammonium may form which is toxic to fish and potentially toxic to plants. Perhaps not a problem unless you have huge amounts of ammonium.

Another issue to chew on is root exudiates. For the purpose of this conversation we're going to have to accept that beneficial bacteria, when the plants are provided with adequate levels of nutrients, go from symbiotic to parasitic.

That being said, in dirt throughout evolution plants haven't been given adequate nutrients. Plants form a symbiotic relationship with these bacterium who help provide and process nutrients in return for sugars. In our environment, this relationship is to be assumed parasitic.

Further, the root exudiates consist of glucose, fructose, and maltose. These sugars are called reducing sugars. This is not something we want in our solution. Not only do they lower ORP, but they provide food for the bacteria that we don't want, and they can reduce and precipiate copper. However, if we are to take these reducing sugars, which are hemiacetals and transform them into acetals they are at least no longer able to reduce. I am unsure if they would still be viable food for the bacteria.

This transformation can take place by the addition of alcohol - methanol, ethanol, etc. acetals are not able to reduce, and so will not affect the ORP in a negative way.

Tests can be performed on each growing environment at the different stages (as different sugars are produced at different stages at different levels) to determine the necessary amount and frequency of the alcohol addition.

It may be possible, that if the water is free of iron bacteria and algae that the incorporation of sugar destroying enzymes could eliminate the need for further sterilization in a recirculating nutrient solution.

 

[churchhaze]

You are making this WAY more complicated than it needs to be, and people tell me that I make it way more complicated than it needs to be.

To start off, follow a good recipe!! Hoagland wasn't stupid. Then, once you have that working, you can tweak it!

 

[Skybound420]

I for one, like when people over think or over complicate. The poor prick that invented the wheel caught shit from the people saying we have perfectly good logs to roll things on.

Is there a consensus for a viable secondary source of hydroponic calcium? I have carbonate powder mixed in water (junk) acetate made from carbonate/vinegar (PH was high but now is low) and amino chelated that I was planning to use in a foliar, but I would rather get my reservoir calcium elevated if possible for the simplicity of how it's doled out to the plant.