12/12 From Seed Experiment - 21 Strains

Hot Diggity Sog

Well-Known Member
Oooooo this looks really good. I actually just took down my 4inch pcv vert NFT(too hot right now for anything but soil), i like your style. I was running it 12 12 from seed... to get more seeds lol. Think i had 35 strains in a 3x3 area with a piddly lil 125watts lol

Im really interested in ardiunos as well. I really wish i had more time to work on sensors and diy lights, but ive been slammed at work. How much was the flow attatchment/sensor, i know the ardis are relatively cheap
Cheap. $13 for the flow sensor
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EVKVM02/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Plan on doing this next round also 12/12 from seed. I won't be running to capacity. This method is going to require some trial and error. I counted all of my female seeds...mostly freebies and I have around 50 or so. I'll be positioning them in such a way to test all of the aspects of the octagon. Each row will be represented and I will probably concentrate most of them on a single side to test the height difference between each row (currently slated at 4 to 5") and the site spacing which will be approximately 4" apart. If the concept works then it's go time.

Edit: And obviously the size of my octagon needs to be tested. Could be too big but I'll find out.
 

Hot Diggity Sog

Well-Known Member
Minor octagon update. I decided to scrap the PVC and am going with corrugated drain pipe instead. I find PVC to be a real pain in the ass.
It looks ghetto right now but it won't soon. I'm waiting on a few items from amazon and then I can finish attaching the pipe to the studs to maintain a continuous and even spring shape.

This drain pipe is flexible enough to be able to easily form a circle yet rigid enough to work for this application (I think). Using a hole saw on this material is super easy and clean as well.
Got the exhaust mounted and will have the carbon filter mounted this weekend (pics to come). Then I'll finish the reflectix wrap around the entire thing. For this 1st run I'm going to space the rows 6 inches instead of 4 and go from 6 rows to 5.

20150410_080730.jpg
 

DirtyNerd

Well-Known Member
Minor octagon update. I decided to scrap the PVC and am going with corrugated drain pipe instead. I find PVC to be a real pain in the ass.
It looks ghetto right now but it won't soon. I'm waiting on a few items from amazon and then I can finish attaching the pipe to the studs to maintain a continuous and even spring shape.

This drain pipe is flexible enough to be able to easily form a circle yet rigid enough to work for this application (I think). Using a hole saw on this material is super easy and clean as well.
Got the exhaust mounted and will have the carbon filter mounted this weekend (pics to come). Then I'll finish the reflectix wrap around the entire thing. For this 1st run I'm going to space the rows 6 inches instead of 4 and go from 6 rows to 5

View attachment 3392117
That is cool how is it going to be with water running have you done a test run to see how the weight and make sure it wont bow.... ? looks strong enough
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I find PVC to be a real pain in the ass.
Why is that? You made a nice start in post #915.

I think you're going to have to use either more hooks, or better, let it rest on some horizontal support, like a helix from gutters or wood.
upload_2015-4-10_17-4-18.png
src: https://www.rollitup.org/t/pyros-vertical-rdwc.524679/

I think the best example, and the original, is from @Heath Robinson who has a good thread here but the images are missing since the forum software change last year. Googling heath robinson flooded tubes shows plenty of images results though.
 

Hot Diggity Sog

Well-Known Member
Why is that? You made a nice start in post #915.

I think you're going to have to use either more hooks, or better, let it rest on some horizontal support, like a helix from gutters or wood.
View attachment 3392171
src: https://www.rollitup.org/t/pyros-vertical-rdwc.524679/

I think the best example, and the original, is from @Heath Robinson who has a good thread here but the images are missing since the forum software change last year. Googling heath robinson flooded tubes shows plenty of images results though.
Cool...I had not seen him using this before. I'm going to try my wrap idea 1st and then if I need more support I'll do it.
 

Hot Diggity Sog

Well-Known Member
Sat...what do you think:

The outer diagonal (E) is 96" (from A to A). Accounting for the width of the 2x4's as well as the pipe, if the light is hung exactly in the center, the distance from the middle of the bulb will be 42 1/2" to the outer edge of the corrugated pipe. Figuring as the plants grow they will want to lean in but what are your thoughts on 42.5". Too far?
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
haha...that's it? Let's go for 3 :)
I see Heath pulled 2.5 so yeah I should have said 2.6+ :D And that's just dry weight.

Figuring as the plants grow they will want to lean in but what are your thoughts on 42.5". Too far?
42.5" to the outer edge seems for 600w a tad too far. Not sure, it actually is... they will indeed lean in but not like 20" or so because they obviously won't grow entirely horizontally.

Are you going to use 2x600w? Ideally you roll out the octagon into a horizontal plane to calculate the surface area. Based on that you can perhaps guesstimate (based on typical HPS use) or calculate the desired total pff to get high yield and not too much fluff.

Just thinking out loud here... 96" dia is roughly 300" circumference, that's 25'. If the "canopy" vertically, of all rows combined, is 5 feet, you have 125sqft to cover. IF it were horizontal that would justify at least 4k of HPS... Obviously not a good comparison, that's kind of the point. What normally would be the top of the canopy is going to be closer than 96" of course. Start for example at the inner side of the pipes, subtract 14" for plant, and the diameter of the canopy is already roughly 40" less. Let's say roughly 56" left, which makes the circumference roughly 16' instead of 25', so 5x 16 = 80sqft surface area. That would in a horizontal setup justify 3kW and without hoods and very little loss from light not reaching the plants 2K could suffice (that's not a suggestion...).

Even if that plant would lean 14" it would leave roughly 28" between plant and bulb. Which is already too much in a horizontal setup, while you can (because no hood concentrating the beam to one end) and should get closer. Adding only 2" to those plants already reduces the surface area of the inner canopy with nearly 10sqft. If the rows of plants will in total be 4feet tall instead of 5 the required total amount of light drops with 20% too.

16sqft is suitable for a great 600watter (stretching it already) horizontally. Let's say in a vertical setup you could be able to stretch that to 20sqft. If you have 2x600watt you could cover perhaps 40sqft, which rolled up in a cylinder of 4 feet tall would leave 10ft circumference is 38 inch diameter (of inner canopy), based on that, adding 14" for both plant and pipe on both sides and the diameter should be roughly 66" instead of 96". That 38" minus bulb self leaves about 18" between plant and bulb. Normal for 600w would be 24", but again that's with a hood concentrating the light to one side, you should get closer, so that 18" could work very well. You have 15" more than that which would make (2x) 1K watter more suitable.

Normally you start with a grow surface and match the light to it, or get a light and match the surface to that. The distance is than the output, while in your case the distance and hence the surface too (although flexible by adding/reducing rows) are inputs, so ideally match the light to that. The distance is not so relevant as long as it's not too close and as long as there's enough light for the surface. Especially in an enclosed vert setup, and as long as the total amount of light on the eventual canopy surface suffices. No place else to go for the light then hit the plants. The higher the distance is, the larger the surface area it shines light on. Too far would mean spreading the light out too much, over "too much plant".

Turned out a bit longer than planned, I hope my stoner math examples makes sense.
 
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Hot Diggity Sog

Well-Known Member
I see Heath pulled 2.5 so yeah I should have said 2.6+ :D And that's just dry weight.

42.5" to the outer edge seems for 600w a tad too far. Not sure, it actually is... they will indeed lean in but not like 20" or so because they obviously won't grow entirely horizontally.

Are you going to use 2x600w? Ideally you roll out the octagon into a horizontal plane to calculate the surface area. Based on that you can perhaps guesstimate (based on typical HPS use) or calculate the desired total pff to get high yield and not too much fluff.

Just thinking out loud here... 96" dia is roughly 300" circumference, that's 25'. If the "canopy" vertically, of all rows combined, is 5 feet, you have 125sqft to cover. IF it were horizontal that would justify at least 4k of HPS... Obviously not a good comparison, that's kind of the point. What normally would be the top of the canopy is going to be closer than 96" of course. Start for example at the inner side of the pipes, subtract 14" for plant, and the diameter of the canopy is already roughly 40" less. Let's say roughly 56" left, which makes the circumference roughly 16' instead of 25', so 5x 16 = 80sqft surface area. That would in a horizontal setup justify 3kW and without hoods and very little loss from light not reaching the plants 2K could suffice (that's not a suggestion...).

Even if that plant would lean 14" it would leave roughly 28" between plant and bulb. Which is already too much in a horizontal setup, while you can (because no hood concentrating the beam to one end) and should get closer. Adding only 2" to those plants already reduces the surface area of the inner canopy with nearly 10sqft. If the rows of plants will in total be 4feet tall instead of 5 the required total amount of light drops with 20% too.

16sqft is suitable for a great 600watter (stretching it already) horizontally. Let's say in a vertical setup you could be able to stretch that to 20sqft. If you have 2x600watt you could cover perhaps 40sqft, which rolled up in a cylinder of 4 feet tall would leave 10ft circumference is 38 inch diameter (of inner canopy), based on that, adding 14" for both plant and pipe on both sides and the diameter should be roughly 66" instead of 96". That 38" minus bulb self leaves about 18" between plant and bulb. Normal for 600w would be 24", but again that's with a hood concentrating the light to one side, you should get closer, so that 18" could work very well. You have 15" more than that which would make (2x) 1K watter more suitable.

Normally you start with a grow surface and match the light to it, or get a light and match the surface to that. The distance is than the output, while in your case the distance and hence the surface too (although flexible by adding/reducing rows) are inputs, so ideally match the light to that. The distance is not so irrelevant as long as it's not too close and as long as there's enough light for the surface. Especially in an enclosed vert setup, and as long as the total amount of light on the eventual canopy surface suffices. No place else to go for the light then hit the plants. The higher the distance is, the larger the surface area it shines light on. Too far would mean spreading the light out too much, over "too much plant".

Turned out a bit longer than planned, I hope my stoner math examples makes sense.
Nice analysis. I have no plans to alter the octagon at this point and I also won't be using more than 1 bulb. Unless stacked vertically, kind of defeats the purpose. I'll use the 1st go around to gauge the plant lean. I've only ever seen and read about folks doing this from clone. I'll make sure however I decide to mount the bulb will leave lots of flexibility for me to reposition it. I'll likely focus most of my attention on only 1 of the 8 sides. Between bulb spacing and total height of the rows I should learn a lot.
 

Hot Diggity Sog

Well-Known Member
Care to take a guess at the number of inches of lean for a 30" to 40" tall plant?
I'm totally guessing but lets say 10 inches. If I want to average 18" in distance, the rows parallel with the bulb could be at perhaps 15" and the upper and lower rows would be low 20's perhaps (ignoring the exact triangular measurements for the moment). That could give me an inner width of 58" (width of Pipe * 2 plus 15" * 2 + 10" stretch * 2). With an inner width (E) of 58" my sides (A) become (58/2.414) or 24". Spaced 4 inches apart I can do 6 plants per row per side or 48 per row. If my rough math is close that's still alot.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
That 14" example I used was based on a guess of 10" too but from the center of the pipe and 1 extra just to add small margin. So yeah, I guess about 10". Although that was based on 20-30" plants.

Yeah that's close, I somehow got 22.75" per side so maybe 40 per row instead. And while normally I'd say 4" is too close, that's the difference that makes the comparison with horizontal skewed, the taller your plants, the more they lean, the closer your buds get together. And the smaller your grow surface becomes so the more dense the light. While initially, at their base they are far enough apart to prevent stretch from crowding and need less light. Kinda cool.

Are you counting on having to support the leaning plants? If so, you could perhaps encourage it by placing the plants at a leaning angle to begin with. Not a great example but:
upload_2015-4-10_23-44-21.png
 

Hot Diggity Sog

Well-Known Member
That 14" example I used was based on a guess of 10" too but from the center of the pipe and 1 extra just to add small margin. So yeah, I guess about 10". Although that was based on 20-30" plants.

Yeah that's close, I somehow got 22.75" per side so maybe 40 per row instead. And while normally I'd say 4" is too close, that's the difference that makes the comparison with horizontal skewed, the taller your plants, the more they lean, the closer your buds get together. And the smaller your grow surface becomes so the more dense the light. While initially, at their base they are far enough apart to prevent stretch from crowding and need less light. Kinda cool.

Are you counting on having to support the leaning plants? If so, you could perhaps encourage it by placing the plants at a leaning angle to begin with. Not a great example but:
View attachment 3392472
I am anticipating having to support the leaning plants but have not come up with anything yet. Based on a grow journal done by Mr. Smith I've decided against angling the net pots. He angled them at 30 degrees and said it was a terrible mistake...lowered the level at which overflowing could occur. My plan as of now is to not tilt them and hope they curve out by themselves or ill bend them so they dont hit the pipe above.
 
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