DiY LEDs - How to Power Them

[Amaximus]

Oh, An entire new sticky filled with new words and acronyms about new technology that I don't know! You're all nuts if ya thinks I'm reading all this shit! heh.

A lot has changed in 2 years...

So... Which of my old school buds wants to give me the lowdown?

Why do I want to use COB's? How much cheaper are they over comparable panels that can be bought? What are the most popular "cookie cutter" builds? And anything else ya can crib-note to my behind-the-times-dumbass?

Oh, Good to be back RIU.

 

[uzerneims]

Oh, An entire new sticky filled with new words and acronyms about new technology that I don't know! You're all nuts if ya thinks I'm reading all this shit! heh.

A lot has changed in 2 years...

So... Which of my old school buds wants to give me the lowdown?

Why do I want to use COB's? How much cheaper are they over comparable panels that can be bought? What are the most popular "cookie cutter" builds? And anything else ya can crib-note to my behind-the-times-dumbass?

Oh, Good to be back RIU.

Why do you want to use COB's?
Because of using HPS you are allready paying big amounts, almost 60% (with good bulb) in heat, if you have older buld then almost 65% of your bill is just for heat, and heat management...
So, in long term, why don't invest the same money on COB's, because with same investment you could drive them lower than normal, get very good PAR efficiency, and heat is much much lower than HPS - so you are paying the same price for more lumens, more par, better nugs, better smell (u kno terpenes n stuff)...

They are cheaper and LOT better than ready-2-market panels, imho, commercial is commercial, they boost up numbers, not quality, we want quality and long term usage.

Yes, these cobs will work for you for a very long time, without any lumen loss, like it is with HPS/MH..


I believe, that LED's will grow most horticulture for us, and we will use sun as infinite energy, haha....

And here is quote from LED-godfather (and there is more of them, haha) from another thread:

I estimate 35-36% for standard 600-1000W HPS and ~40% for the 1000W DE HPS, when the bulbs are brand new. Of course they cannot be compared directly, a 600W 35% efficient LED will grow a lot more bud than a 600W HPS. Just how great the difference is is a controversial topic.

@Greengenes707 did an excellent side by side of 600W Apache LED vs 1000W Hortilux HPS, using the same cutting, same air, same ferts etc. The yield was comparable. Those results are a very strong data point in my mind because GG is not bias, just a smart guy looking for results in his jars.

Also worth mentioning, the LED grown weed tested with higher cannabinoids and higher terpenes than the HPS samples. I estimate that Apache LED was in the low-mid 30s in terms of efficiency, so you can extrapolate what a 55% LED will do.

 

[Doer]

Much better @28.50. I almost want more, but going cxb3590's next, just emailed kingbright.

I was looking at that but the spec seems to suggest less light, so I couldn't see the advantage.

 

[Doer]

Oh, An entire new sticky filled with new words and acronyms about new technology that I don't know! You're all nuts if ya thinks I'm reading all this shit! heh.

A lot has changed in 2 years...

So... Which of my old school buds wants to give me the lowdown?

Why do I want to use COB's? How much cheaper are they over comparable panels that can be bought? What are the most popular "cookie cutter" builds? And anything else ya can crib-note to my behind-the-times-dumbass?

Oh, Good to be back RIU.

Well, I am at the same point, but a little farther perhaps. So, I can give a bit of Cliff Note.

How much cheaper? In that past that was a no brainer.....not much was the answer if you figure labor of wiring all those 3w LEDs.

Now we have them from trusted Cree, at 150w per COB. Instead of single emitters, they have a die of hundreds of tiny emiters, as a silicon chip. A Chip on Board. All the "wiring" is inside.

They all have different current and voltages for each tiny part, so typically you let the voltages vary and supply a regulated current. A steady current, driver, is used instead of a steady voltage type.

The rest is all about efficiency and heat vs steady light level.

HPS - 30% effective means that 70% of the energy is lost to heat, not light.
HPS - 20% of the light is IR, so it heats up the room and is not used by plants
HPS - 24% of total watts is PAR, ie something the plant can use

LED - 45% effective means that only 55% of the energy is lost to heat
LED - almost no IR to speak of
LED - 45% of total watts is PAR, ie something the plant can use

So, this is why we say, 600w of LED can more than replace 1000w of HPS. More than, is because these are so cool compared to HPS you can run them much closer to the plant. And we know illumination density is all about the cube of the distance. The closer the source the better within reason.

PROs
- no bulbs to change,
- no globes to clean
- no magnetic ballast to go out (more heat load, of course) (and they are heavy and loud)
- no fancy digital ballast to buy
- less operating cost per PAR watt
- easier to set up
- easier to manage
- lasts a long time

CONs
- higher upfront costs
- some math required
- soldering skills a must
- some more math required
- technical advances are year over year, so your shit is already shit
- it is a DIY design challenge to fit these into your grow and maybe advance the art

Your first design choice is:
- passive cooling
- active cooling
- hybrid passive-active cooling

And the good news is you are only about 100 hours and 400 pages behind.

Helps?

 

[churchhaze]

"45% effective means that only 55% of the energy is lost to heat"

That's efficiency. It's very important that efficiency, efficacy, and effectiveness are not confused.

 

[Doer]

Wordiness.

 

[Doer]

Wordiness. Effective at being efficient.

 

[churchhaze]

45% effective could mean that crime has been reduced by 45% as a result of adding the lamp. Efficiency is the effectiveness of producing output power for a given amount of input power, which must be a number between 0 and 1, but can not be 1.

 

[Greengenes707]

HPS is much more efficient that you're letting on. Lets keep it fair and honest gentleman.

600w are capable of 42% in just the PAR range. Not counting IR...which is much less than 20% of output. And DE1000 are right there as well with even less lumen depreciation.

Yes we can beat them with modern tech LEDs/COBs because of equal/slightly greater efficiency+directionality of the source+spectral qualities. But the numbers are closer than some are lead/leading to believe for common/average priced builds. But fun part about DIY is practicality/price can go out the window for stupid crazy efficiency if you want...leaving no one except other DIY'ers as competition.

 

[Doer]

That is a very effective reply for the wordsmith, typo hunter types.

The main difference in my mind is ease of use.

 

[Snapper]

Would this driver be a good match for a CXA3070?

 

[Doer]

HPS is much more efficient that you're letting on. Lets keep it fair and honest gentleman.

600w are capable of 42% in just the PAR range. Not counting IR...which is much less than 20% of output. And DE1000 are right there as well with even less lumen depreciation.

Yes we can beat them with modern tech LEDs/COBs because of equal/slightly greater efficiency+directionality of the source+spectral qualities. But the numbers are closer than some are lead/leading to believe for common/average priced builds. But fun part about DIY is practicality/price can go out the window for stupid crazy efficiency if you want...leaving no one except other DIY'ers as competition.

I don't know what the exact percent is, but the Fresca Sol guy said it was 20% and I believe him although some of that can be UV, also.

It is just that the water jacket is cool to the touch on 1000w but the IR will heat your hand and everything else in the room through direct radiation.

 

[churchhaze]

HPS efficiency is between ~35-42% fresh depending on whether it's generic mogul, or high end DE.

 

[churchhaze]

Quoting @Greengenes707 from a certain Gavita thread

"[LER for] Standard hps is 380[lm/W]+/-"

That means if an HPS lamp has a luminous efficacy of 150lm/W dissipated, it outputs 0.395W of radiant power for every 1W of dissipated power. That would make it 39.5% efficient.

If an HPS lamp with the same LER (luminous efficacy of radiation) outputs 140lm/W, it outputs 0.368W of radiant power for every 1W of dissipated power. That would make it 36.8% efficient.

 

[Doer]

Quoting @Greengenes707 from a certain Gavita thread

"[LER for] Standard hps is 380[lm/W]+/-"

That means if an HPS lamp has a dissipated luminous efficacy of 150lm/W dissipated, it outputs 0.395W of radiant power for every 1W of dissipated power. That would make it 39.5% efficient.

If an HPS lamp with the same LER (luminous efficacy rating) outputs 140lm/W, it outputs 0.368W of radiant power for every 1W of dissipated power. That would make it 36.8% efficient.

And I figure 350 and it begins to go down from there. In 6 months you are maybe 1/2 of that.

 

[churchhaze]

If LER fell to half of 350lm/W for that 150lm/W HPS lamp, efficiency would have risen all the way to 85.7% over its lifespan, and it would likely start looking purple.

LER only changes when SPD changes.

 

[Greengenes707]

I don't know what the exact percent is, but the Fresca Sol guy said it was 20% and I believe him although some of that can be UV, also.

st that the water jacket is cool to the touch on 1000w but the IR will heat your hand and everything else in the room through direct radiation.

I don't know who that is..just that, that percentage is not what I know as how much is there or anything close to what I have seen anywhere else.
Below is a great breakdown from another member who digitized the SPD's.

For Standard HPS - 2200K - 140000 lumens - 1000W, I find :
- Radiant Power 399.79 Watt & 2006.62 umol/s
- LER = 350

That is for all the nm...outside 400-700 included. Making it(1K hps) ~40% total efficiency.
Then...

For PAR 400-700nm the radiant flux is : 358 Watts & 1750 umol/s

That is just within PAR...coming out to ~36% efficient...just like we have know/stated for some years now.

Quoting @Greengenes707 from a certain Gavita thread
"[LER for] Standard hps is 380[lm/W]+/-"
That means if an HPS lamp has a luminous efficacy of 150lm/W dissipated, it outputs 0.395W of radiant power for every 1W of dissipated power. That would make it 39.5% efficient.

If an HPS lamp with the same LER (luminous efficacy of radiation) outputs 140lm/W, it outputs 0.368W of radiant power for every 1W of dissipated power. That would make it 36.8% efficient.

If LER fell to half of 350lm/W for that 150lm/W HPS lamp, efficiency would have risen all the way to 85.7% over its lifespan, and it would likely start looking purple.
LER only changes when SPD changes.

Yep...that's me and what I go by. Not sure what you are trying to show. I think you're tripped up by the 42% 600hps with a standard 1Khps...not the same, and not what I said.
600hps puts out 95000lm...158.333lm/w...going on a LERof 380...41.6666667....or 42% efficient.

There is a slight SPD change with DE's, but not much and no one has actually shown that there is...just a visual recognition of higher intensity. So for all intents and purposes with a 380LER, still is close enough to use for DE's till the official is stated and/or re-stated.
It is hard to get a lumen output from a DE bulb to use LER against, because they are actually horticulture based references...µmols(not a bad thing). Someone more SPD savvy than I, will have to break it down to make sure that the 2100µmols stated is in the 400-700nm range...but either way, I will put my reputation on the line that they are 40+% efficiency.

Here is a quote from a while ago where I broke down every mogul HPS from 150w-1000w...

600hps are the most efficient hps. A 600w digital ballast actually outputs really close to the same as a 1000w magnetics system.

HPS efficiency rankings(based on brand new bulbs...their own heat kills the efficiency quickly with use)
600w(42%)
1000w(38%)
400w(36%)
250w(32%)
150w(28%)

So going from 400w to 600w is not just more of the same power...
400w@36% efficiency is 144 PAR watts of energy emitted...
600w@42% efficiency is 252 PAR watts of energy emitted...

So the 200w(50%more than wattage than before ) increase will come with a 75% increase in actual output thanks to the better efficiency of the 600w.

Not trying to argue anything wrong specifically...just want the correct info out there so when HPS heads coming in blazing full guns, we are prepared and not under playing them.

 

[churchhaze]

Yep...that's me and what I go by. Not sure what you are trying to show. I think you're tripped up by the 42% 600hps with a standard 1Khps...not the same, and not what I said.
600hps puts out 95000lm...158.333lm/w...going on a LERof 380...41.6666667....or 42% efficient.

Sorry, I was only intending to quote your LER value, not the rest. I was making calculations based on hypothetical lamps with the same LER. If a hypothetical HPS lamp claimed 170lm/W and had the same LER of 380lm/W, then, it would be 44.7% efficient, right?

I'm not trying to say the HPS on the market are 150lm/W (although that is around what I remembered it being from the past. I have fuzzy memory.), but was just plugging in multiple round values for hypothetical efficiencies given that LER.

There is a slight SPD change with DE's, but not much and no one has actually shown that there is...just a visual recognition of higher intensity. So for all intents and purposes with a 380LER, still is close enough to use for DE's till the official is stated and/or re-stated.

No argument from me here.

 

[Greengenes707]

Sorry, I was only intending to quote your LER value, not the rest. I was making calculations based on hypothetical lamps. If a hypothetical HPS lamp claimed 170lm/W and had the same LER of 380lm/W, then, it would be 44.7% efficient, right?

I'm not trying to say the HPS on the market are 150lm/W, but was just plugging in multiple round values for hypothetical efficiencies given that LER.




No argument from me here.

10-4 good buddy. Now I'm picking up what you're laying down.

 

[medicinehuman]

Here we have 6 plant's under 382w of 3070z4's, 10 COB's with 4 @700mA, 4@1050mA and 2 on end@1400mA. 3 Lemon kush and 3 White widow's. They are all at different ages in life.