Help! Potency Sux!
- Thread starter LoIQ2
- Start date
No bubbler, raw papers...did you clean your bubbler?..i don't know how many times i think it's off then i clean it and voila`!..it doesn't even have to be really dirty..just makes such a difference..know how i know?..it's them BOTH.. or you just might have to take a few weeks off..my money's on your favorite device
Bump
any opinion on how the next run is looking?
RM3
Well-Known Member
Have never checked, never owned a meter and I don't mix all it together, I give them different things at different times based on their needs and the beauty of sulfates is they don't affect PH and are readily available to the plant
have you started any new meds over this harvest..specifically brain? for ADD or depression?..hahahaa that can effect.
Alienwidow
Well-Known Member
i love how you have an exclamation point after, "his are!". right after you state that not all plants will be happy a 350 ppm like you've actually done this lol
heres my experience. (like real life) I've had dwc girls eat over 250 ppm out of a five gallon bucket in a day. so why would i keep that bucket at 350? even if i did have my bucket at 1000, and then in the 14 days it takes to do a full rez change I'm obviously reading the ppm and adding just what it needs to keep it at 1000, (following me?), then i would still only be adding exactly what the plants eating back into it. so the only WASTE as you call it would be the water thrown out at the end of the rez cycle which would equal to maybe one dollar. so whats the point your arguing with me? that my ppms are too high? not according to my plant and the rest of the community, oh and the manufactures of the nutrients. <ya those guys too, you know? those devilish money hoarders that make you throw out a dollar every 14 days.
dude if you'd like to start your own journal and feed at 350 great, ill subscribe. till then save the advice giving for the people who've done the experimenting. i personally don't have a dip stick that tells me how much nitrogen my plants eaten today, or calcium, but i do know that if i add this amount that I'm not going under what the plant needs and what it won't eat will get flushed.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
That 350-380ppm (0.5 scale, 0.7EC) was test to see how low I could go. I'm sure, knowing not all my tap water contents is useful, I could go actually lower, like 250-300ppm. This is largely because the ratios I give align with the ratios the plant uses. I could double the PPM with N alone (not without getting too dark leaves though).
I don't actually recommend 0.7EC except for the first week and last week (little less even at the end). Instead, 1.0EC. 450-500ppm. I started with 1100+ run, nearly the complete H&G line. I tried 650-ish ppm after that, 450-480, and the 350-ish run. I get the same amount (17-18 oz, veg and transition with 400w, flower with 600w), and definitely no less frosty (if anything, on the contrary). I use only base nutes (H&G Aqua Flakes), and nitric acid for pH down (don't use phosphor for down).
What I mentioned several times too though is that I don't actually use that much less nutes running 350 opposed to 600 or so, I just add it more often. If you drop all the nutes it needs for a week in the rez, it will be imbalanced near the end of the week. That is in fact what often causes deficiencies, not a too low ppm, but imbalance caused by a shortage or excessive amount of one or more elements.
I've grown different phenos and completely different strains (100% indica vs sativa-dom) from the same rez. It is not as much strain dependent as some suggest. There are heavy feeding mediums though... and in DWC there's no medium that buffers. We had a decent discussion about PPM and amount of nutes at https://www.rollitup.org/t/why-are-my-ppms-going-up-now.835107/page-2 (the links to the attachments in that example run are working, thumbs don't show up for me though)
I do run a little higher in dwc than in NFT (/DFT/Flooded tubes), and yet a little higher in coco and hempy, but still 650 or lower. I actually top off a gallon of my NFT rez, raise ppm (mostly N), and then give it to coco or hempy.
I've convinced a few people running high ppms to try 500-600 instead of 1000+ and the responses are always the same "My plants look much healthier now". And healthy plants that have enough of everything, not too little, not too much, is what creates potent bud, as in allows it to reach it genetic potential easier.
Funny thing is, it 'was' kind of common. I posted several examples of others in that thread.
Reach that optimal zone for all environmental factors and the plant will do the rest. Plants don't want more, they don't want too little, they want "enough".
thenotsoesoteric
Well-Known Member
Sorry, to use you as an example but I was checking your post right before I found this one and mentioned how I saw you run so low. I myself stay in the 600ppm-ish area mostly and have no problems and nice harvest. I wasn't trying to start an argument with AW, just was saying "less is more"sometimes. Cheers and your grows always look nice mate.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Thanks, and no problem. Many of the who I believe to be the better or at least more experienced hydro growers in this forum don't bother arguing with those who run 1000+ because it suggests those are doing something wrong and people generally don't like hearing that. The real message is really that that little bit of extra people try to get out of it by choosing for more, can often be achieved by going for a little less, so yes, less is more. Especially if that 'more' is a result of the typical approach of trying to see how much a plant can take.
Alienwidow
Well-Known Member
is there any sulpher
so home and garden line. any additives? calmag? do you buy them in N P and K bottles or is it the premixed? you know what? i can see kinda what your saying but what your implying is that the folks on here know when the plants are feeding hard vs. not feeding. thats a tough case to crack for the regular guy.
i applaud your results but feel that most guys who try to duplicate your results may end up short if 350 through mid flower is what your telling them to do. by the sounds of things thats just week one and the final week and that you just end up using nutes more often.
glad we figured that out. some guy was trying to say...well we know.
either way, healthy looking in dwc at up to 11ish wasn't a problem for me, like the most lush looking forest ever. i also prefer the go hard or go home approach which states clearly that, if you don't go as hard as possible then you sold yourself short. i also don't go harder than 650 in coco. i believe that more is more. the chart presented earlier has no ppm sweet spot or week number so idk, i can see a hump. thats all. if ya had one with weeks and npk consumption you'd probably get head at many various places that i know anyway. but i don't think i can sell them on a hump.
but just to clear it all up, is the 1000 plus iypo past the "zone of stress", or into it? or past it and into the zone of intolerance?
dandyrandy
Well-Known Member
I've had Bomb THC seeds that barely gave me a buzz. Others better. I seem to see a lot of variation in some seed companies. Same soil same everything. I'm trying to raise a bbbc and a slh to clone. Looks like I found a bbbc. Went through 3 seeds. Still looking for the slh. I have a Sourd that foxtails a bit that I kept. The best I have found for potency and growth. I lucked out and found one quick. I grow with soil. Keep looking.
RM3
Well-Known Member
Just enough
my last grow, which was my first DTW hempy..i ran with 1/2 label of FF, just as i would with soil so 250-700 ppms and someone here really reamed me that their plants would be dead..hmmm think i'll check to see who..now i'm doing the opposite..full label..want to see the difference if any.
the results:
the results:
Attachments
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Sativied
Well-Known Member
@Alienwidow Let me say ahead I have no desire to convince you, it's just not as controversial as you seem to think and it's also extremely easy to try out yourself.
That said, let me answer your questions nonetheless:
Those H&G base nutes come in A and B component that are used in equal parts. I use GH Bloom/flower instead of a part of H&G base nutes during flower because H&G is a little too high on N for my NFT setup.
The only useful parts in additives are the same element already present in complete base nutes.
But yes, I do use nutes more often, or better said I spread out their weekly doses better, for the reason I explained, one you shouldn't underestimate (ratio is more important than concentration, google mulder's chart for example).
"may end up short mid flower" just isn't the reality. They are instead happy healthy green with zero deficiencies (often caused by overfeeding and creating imbalance not an actual too low EC). And again, running 1.0EC is not uncommon. As long as it has enough of every element it has no problem taking up what it needs in the amount it needs. There's a limit to the amount of elements a plant can take up simultaneously and a limit to what it needs to run smoothly.
Organics growers usually don't like to hear it, but plants are like living factories, and cannabis plants basically resin factories. There's only so much you can provide through a given supply line without clogging the line and overloading the other processes.
Instead of focussing on PPM, I focus a lot more on pH. Monitoring though, I control pH with nutes. I don't need pH up anymore (pH drop is 90% of the time an imbalance in cation and anion uptake, caused indirectly by over fertilizing) and use pH down almost only to lower my tap water pH after a complete refresh.
Last but not least, I use roughly a liter H&G per run (so can do 2 runs with 1liter A and a liter B). As typical, very little of the contents of those bottles is actually nutes, most of it is water. Let it dry out and see how little is left. Giving them any more than they need to "make weed from air" is a waste of nutes, but also results in the opposite of what you're trying to do.
Just my 20cents
That said, let me answer your questions nonetheless:
I started with nearly the complete line, both veg and flower additives, even shooting powder (everything that was in a starter kit), but no longer use any additives. H&G Hydro, Aqua Flakes (used both, use the latter) contain plenty of Calcium and Magnesium as I've pointed out in many threads. Calmag is hype based on a common problem with sol (the lime buffer running out). Every complete line contains plenty of Calcium and Mg.
Those H&G base nutes come in A and B component that are used in equal parts. I use GH Bloom/flower instead of a part of H&G base nutes during flower because H&G is a little too high on N for my NFT setup.
The only useful parts in additives are the same element already present in complete base nutes.
I don't see directly how I implied that, the plants are always 'feeding', 24hrs a day. Sometimes harder because they drink more (which is really what 'feeds' them indirectly, plants don't eat)
Half of that 350 is from my tap water already. I realize it sounds really really low, but it in practice isn't. And no, that wasn't just the first and the last week, not what I said. The reason I run 450-500 is to avoid nute shock and because it's a little more convenient, not because 350 resulted in deficiencies.
But yes, I do use nutes more often, or better said I spread out their weekly doses better, for the reason I explained, one you shouldn't underestimate (ratio is more important than concentration, google mulder's chart for example).
"may end up short mid flower" just isn't the reality. They are instead happy healthy green with zero deficiencies (often caused by overfeeding and creating imbalance not an actual too low EC). And again, running 1.0EC is not uncommon. As long as it has enough of every element it has no problem taking up what it needs in the amount it needs. There's a limit to the amount of elements a plant can take up simultaneously and a limit to what it needs to run smoothly.
Ok, but your preference and believe do not align with how plants operate. The high tech greenhouses in NL worked closely together with labs and universities to determine an EC range for many crops which looks similar to that curve. Not a maximum. If you want to feed more nutes than needed, you have to breed that improved version of the plant first. It's a rather well known fact that more is often not more when it comes to plants, especially outside the cannabis industry with all the scamming nutrient companies.
Organics growers usually don't like to hear it, but plants are like living factories, and cannabis plants basically resin factories. There's only so much you can provide through a given supply line without clogging the line and overloading the other processes.
The image is not a concrete representation of ppm levels but the zone of intolerance is where you kill your plants slowly or quickly. So we know it's not that far. That 1000ppm could still be in the optimal zone (more likely in the stress zone, but not that level of the curve), but at the lower end of the curve, where the curve can mean quality and quantity. Same thing goes for amount of water, light, CO2, ventilation, root zone (ions in water), and literally every other factor that influences the environment of the plant. A plant grows itself, "go hard" in the context of growing plants means going hard for an optimal environment, not going hard for max or treating them like pigs or geese (though even those have a genetic limit).
Instead of focussing on PPM, I focus a lot more on pH. Monitoring though, I control pH with nutes. I don't need pH up anymore (pH drop is 90% of the time an imbalance in cation and anion uptake, caused indirectly by over fertilizing) and use pH down almost only to lower my tap water pH after a complete refresh.
Last but not least, I use roughly a liter H&G per run (so can do 2 runs with 1liter A and a liter B). As typical, very little of the contents of those bottles is actually nutes, most of it is water. Let it dry out and see how little is left. Giving them any more than they need to "make weed from air" is a waste of nutes, but also results in the opposite of what you're trying to do.
Just my 20cents
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hellmutt bones
Well-Known Member
Ive never dealt with nervana so dont quote me and im not trying to trash what could b the a good seed company but it could b ur seed company just google its all over the internet
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Looks great, lush, dark green. Leaves look very similar to my high ppm runs.
The best bud site in the pic above is chocolate fondue, the rest is skywalker kush.
Same grow:
Color and plastic gloss look great perhaps but really is taking it too far (N in this case). That was 1000+ppm with several additives.
If you keep it up you will likely get rusty brown spots on fans later in the cycle even if you don't burn them. Leaves will likely get harder and crispier too.
The thriving force for plants is water potential, the air pulls water out of leaves, leaves suck water through plants pulling ions close enough to its roots for uptake. Typical argument in defoliation threads is that leaves shouldn't be removed because they are the solar panels, while in fact they are so much more. Keep the leaves happy, and the plant will thrive (hence the phrase reading leaves). Not saying 1000ppm leads to crappy shwag, but when it comes to pushing the plant to max yield and potency, just as the darkness of the green of leaves, more is not more.
This is what 350-380ppm (in NFT...) mid-flower looks like, and that's just a fan leaf:
I described its potency as not suitable for operating heavy machinery or vehicles.
how do you get that fire on the fan? please share your secret with me..you just totally blew me away.
EDIT: PM me if you don't want to share.