IF you are new to LED and want help choosing what to buy, POST HERE!
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Cpappa27
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when it comes to LEDs, lumens cant be part of the equation. Its all about the spectrum and what plants can use. When you open your grow room and your blinded by your 400 watt hps, its light that isn't absorbed and its wasted.
.. I may have been mislead but theres dozens of side by side comparisons showing Lumen Output means nothing if the correct spectrum is there.
Supplemental brings to mind unplanned needs. That caused me to think about backup lights. If I depend upon 5-6 high-efficiency fixtures, and two could conceivably fail at the same time, buying a couple Chinese epi-unknown fixtures could be a good value. Not expected to use them for extended periods. Not depending upon them as primary light. Just something to get through a few days until the primary light is repaired.
(Kind of a back-handed compliment. It's a good light if you don't intend to use it. Not really what I was trying to say. Just that there is that need to have backup lights. These would work.).
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
Non-DIY tree considerations:
Cost Upfront least to greatest: CFLs, LED bulbs, MH , HPS, Florescent T8, T5HO, Epistar LED, Efficient LED.
Efficiency Best to worst: MH, HPS, Efficient LED, LED bulbs, Epistar/T5HO, T8, CFL
So as their concern slides from upfront cost to long term efficiency you could slide up or down that scale unless a physical space requirement dictated crossing off options.
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
Spectrum means color or wavelength. You can't say it doesn't matter how much light, it only matters that it's purple. That is silly.
That is from 2011, the light being put out by modern LEDs is totally different. Almost all of either the Cree or Epistar light is in the proper wavelengths (assuming you pick the proper color temps). Find a comparison from 2014 or late 2013 if you want to see something valid.
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nomofatum
Well-Known Member
Nothing wrong with a cheap backup. Any of the modular systems have the bonus of being able to just have a couple of spares around though.
I mean deep blue supplemental lighting, UVA supplemental lighting, UVB supplemental lighting. RM3 is all about the deep blues, I don't know anything about them yet. UVB is used by a good number of growers to encourage more resin and THC production (it stresses the plant to produce resin/and especially THC as a sunscreen.) Not sure on UVA, but it comes free with UVB anyway.
It will be interesting to see how others respond to your placement of efficient LED lower than CMH. That implies CMH should be the choice not merely as a stop-gap until they can afford efficient LED.
Abiqua
Well-Known Member
They are not saying that, only that measuring lumens, does not measure intensity of photons, only the intensity that the human eye can see at around 580nm. For that you need a photometic or radiometric look....
For instance blue spectrums tend to emit large lumen counts because of their wavelengths, but low to medium intensity....reds emit low lumen counts but can emit high intensity...whites are in the middle with high lumen counts because most are based on a blue diode to begin with but are balanced with red spectrums that improve intensity, but don't necessarily improve lumen count, but are still high overall because of the blue spectrums...
So lumens as a measure is essentially irrelevant. We all see people compare lumens counts, but similar fixtures would be the exception to measure against for lumens. But it still doesnt tell of a intensity measurement like joules/per watt which would take all spectrums into account not just what the human eye sees best, which do fall outside of human vision. Then it could and is taken a step further by measuring averaging the radiometric measurements of individual wavelenghts in a grouping or by each individual spectrum. Blues >aqua >green>yellow>red>ir>etc.
[lumens don't tell you this type of information as they become skewed the farther you move away from 580nm in either direction....]
For instance blue spectrums tend to emit large lumen counts because of their wavelengths, but low to medium intensity....reds emit low lumen counts but can emit high intensity...whites are in the middle with high lumen counts because most are based on a blue diode to begin with but are balanced with red spectrums that improve intensity, but don't necessarily improve lumen count, but are still high overall because of the blue spectrums...
So lumens as a measure is essentially irrelevant. We all see people compare lumens counts, but similar fixtures would be the exception to measure against for lumens. But it still doesnt tell of a intensity measurement like joules/per watt which would take all spectrums into account not just what the human eye sees best, which do fall outside of human vision. Then it could and is taken a step further by measuring averaging the radiometric measurements of individual wavelenghts in a grouping or by each individual spectrum. Blues >aqua >green>yellow>red>ir>etc.
[lumens don't tell you this type of information as they become skewed the farther you move away from 580nm in either direction....]
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nomofatum
Well-Known Member
I should have put a few notes in there, that list is based on the absolute highest efficiency version of that type of product. A run of the mill street light MH or HPS won't beat a LED. Also the sizes that meet that efficiency are limited.
Abiqua
Well-Known Member
What cmh run 50% efficiency and around 10 years without a hiccup if designed properly?....great lights, but taken other factors into account along with bulb changes and added heat costs, that's the true cost comparison
[granted, not everyone is running LED's at around 50% eff, but 40 and above is becoming the norm quickly....]
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
To understand what light will do the job best what you should look at is two things.They are not saying that, only that measuring lumens, does not measure intensity of photons, only the intensity that the human eye can see at around 580nm. For that you need a photometic or radiometric look....
For instance blue spectrums tend to emit large lumen counts because of their wavelengths, but low to medium intensity....reds emit low lumen counts but can emit high intensity...whites are in the middle with high lumen counts because most are based on a blue diode to begin with but are balanced with red spectrums that improve intensity, but don't necessarily improve lumen count, but are still high overall because of the blue spectrums...
So lumens as a measure is essentially irrelevant. We all see people compare lumens counts, but similar fixtures would be the exception to measure against for lumens. But it still doesnt tell of a intensity measurement like joules/per watt which would take all spectrums into account not just what the human eye sees best, which do fall outside of human vision. Then it could and is taken a step further by measuring averaging the radiometric measurements of individual wavelenghts in a grouping or by each individual spectrum. Blues >aqua >green>yellow>red>ir>etc.
[lumens don't tell you this type of information as they become skewed the farther you move away from 580nm in either direction....]
1. The wavelength output chart of your light.
2. The chlorophyll wavelength chart.
Any wavelegths that overlap are usable, from the chlorophyll chart you will see certain target wavelengths matter more.
The better the match the more the lumens matter. The fact of the matter is that all the lights we are considering here have a pretty good overlap and hit the target wavelengths with a good deal of light.
Abiqua
Well-Known Member
It is misleading as I explained, for example in the chlorophyll charts, the peak of C1 is around 450-480nm, and you could have a blue spectrum oriented light that puts out a lot of lumens in the blue range but is NOT indicative of the intensity. Or it could have a real nice % in the 66nm range say, and the lumen count would be LOW and intensity high for the C2 end.....
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
It's not absolutely precise, close calls could get called the wrong way, but I don't see a measure that works better that is available for all the lighting options. Those charts make it clear if your lights are on target, the lumen count just helps judge intensity even if it is a less than ideal measure. Unfortunately ideal measures don't seem to be available on all lighting options.
Dloomis514
Well-Known Member
The Christmas spirits are out, thank God for the ignore button. No more fat stuff for me!
Dloomis514
Well-Known Member
Just curious, are 300 watt 11 band LEDs still considered flouros? Or does that term more refer to the configuration, i.e. T5?
Have you seen the $40 DIY spectrometer from Public Labs? (<<link) I wonder if a combination of that and lux could be used to objectively compare light efficiency. For example, a "people's par value." All we'd need is a standardized calibration. They use a CFL to find the color spike peculiar to mercury. If we standardized lux of a common source, everyone could adjust their lux values. Seems like lux and the color spectrum it's spread across would be accurate. (I forget if the DIY spectrometer has a strength value that could be used. A way to get umoles.).
Dloomis514
Well-Known Member
There are visual ways to depict decision trees called mind maps. Would this be appropriate for a group exercise?
Maybe supporters of Chinese epi-unknown fixtures would like to. So far, the "decision tree" doesn't seem that complicated.
If not DIY,
- if not in a vertically-challenged space,
- - if unable or unwilling to buy high-efficiency LED,
- - - buy CMH.
- - else, buy high efficiency.
- else,
- - if unwilling to mount/aim/reflect LED "lightbulbs,"
- - - buy Chinese epi-whatever fixtures (or T5HO which is about equivalent).
- - else,
- - - buy LED lightbulbs.
Buying Chinese epi-whatever instead of a CMH wouldn't be the worst thing someone could do. The worst they could do is spend a fortune on rebranded Chinese lights (like Kind, Lush, et. al.). It's not the end of the world to drop $200 on a direct import and decide you should have spent $200 for CMH. Not like dropping $2k on one of the rebranded lights sold with secret spectrum, etc.
There may be other trees for DIY (epi or higher efficiency), secondary/supplemental lighting, backup fixtures for when more efficient ones fail. But, that's not the stuff which led people to complain these lights don't get the credit they deserve. After all the "it's more complicated than you think..." it doesn't seem to be. Even the person who said that ended up saying he wouldn't recommend LED (even efficient) unless it's DIY. That's a one-branch decision tree.
Couchlock seemed the most perturbed. So, he's free to weigh in if anything's been overlooked.
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captainmorgan
Well-Known Member
Looks like a tree vs a bush,let the insults fly.
nomofatum
Well-Known Member
My first two questions in a decision tree would be:
How big is your space?
How much $ do you have available for setup?
The 2nd question is just as important as the 1st. You can keep ignoring that, but you do yourself and the tree a disservice by being closed minded. The point of the tree is to cover all possible cases, not the ones you are most interested in. CMH is still expensive, $500-600 for 315w, I would need 5 to compete with my $350 LED system.
CMH does look promising, just need to get initial investment down for it. The Welthink CMH 315w ballast/fixture looks interesting, waiting on a response from them. If I can get a 315w CMH for under $200 I'm going to give it a try. From what I read they are selling the digital 315w ballasts for $80, so the whole fixture is likely well under $200.
How big is your space?
How much $ do you have available for setup?
The 2nd question is just as important as the 1st. You can keep ignoring that, but you do yourself and the tree a disservice by being closed minded. The point of the tree is to cover all possible cases, not the ones you are most interested in. CMH is still expensive, $500-600 for 315w, I would need 5 to compete with my $350 LED system.
CMH does look promising, just need to get initial investment down for it. The Welthink CMH 315w ballast/fixture looks interesting, waiting on a response from them. If I can get a 315w CMH for under $200 I'm going to give it a try. From what I read they are selling the digital 315w ballasts for $80, so the whole fixture is likely well under $200.
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