Winter air vented directly through cool tube hood

Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
The title is a bit self-explanatory, but essentially I'm just looking for a discussion on the pros / cons or if it's even possible. I'd like to see some actual scientific facts get dropped, so electricians this is your chance to shine!

The question came up in another thread about having the availability to intake air directly from outside to be blown through a cool tube during the winter. Obviously cold air will cool the bulb, duh, but the question is, is it safe? Of course you have to factor in rh, bulb type and size, geographical location, etc.

So let's discuss this!
 

Mr.Moniker

Well-Known Member
My only thing would be, what about the nights it gets cold or snows (depending on where you live? Your lights Run so hot that it could crack them to have air that cold passed over them.

And if your drawing air in from outside it'd have to be filtered before entering your grow room (maybe a hepa filter on the intake?) And then your gonna have to vent the air back out of your room so as not to allow cold air into your grow space.

Maybe in an industrial sized grow in an area where winters are mild at worst, it'd be a feesable idea, but otherwise I feel like to effectively vent fresh air from outside it'd be more work than it'd be to just suck the heat straight off your light with your fan
 

SnaFuu

Well-Known Member
Why are you thinking of doing this?? If you're having heat issues, use the winter air in your room somehow. Just passing it over your light and then exhausting it is a waste..... My fan blows all the heat out of there already, i dont see the use for this. Unless the bulb itself likes cold temperatures (which it doesn't)
 

Michiganja Meduana

Active Member
I love growing tropical plants in Michigan winters, it's so much easier to deal with the temps. My grow intake is on the floor, and there is by some luck, a basement window a few feet away. In cold weather, I can very easily run mid 70's in the growroom with that open. The intake fans pick up the cold air before it ever chills the living area too, so that's a bonus. I'd love to add a small A/C, bit I'm not interested in the increased load on the electric system or bill. I can run most of the room on the power those A/C units use. They really need to do something about that excessive power draw.
 

jijiandfarmgang

Well-Known Member
Freezing cold air directly to cool lights.......is it safe? No

Has been discussed a thousand times.

Electrician science facts? lol

Extremely cold air hitting the surface of something much warmer cools the temp. Warm air (having a much higher absolute humidity than cold air) gets cooled when it touches the cold object and humidity falls out of suspension.

There will be so much condensation it can literally pool up in your reflector.

- Jiji
 

Michiganja Meduana

Active Member
cool air hitting hot glass wont necessarily break, there is a science behind it after all. Each type of glass has a temperature range that it can deal with and remain stable. The reason we use borosilicate to smoke, is because it has a very wide temperature fluctuation tolerance.
 

Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
Thank you everyone for your input on the matter. I apologize for creating this thread then disappear for a few days, just finished moving recently so life is busier than I like.

But back to the topic at hand. Just to clarify, I am not attempting to do this, nor do I need to. Unless of course it would yield really favorable results. The reason I created this thread was because the question of doing this safely came up in another thread (I can link to it if anyone really cares that much) and no one had a diffinitive answer with the accompanying science to back it up, so here we are.

Here's some science posted from another member here on the topic
"Like most substances, glass expands as it heats up and shrinks as it cools. It also has moderately low thermal conductivity. And it's hard but brittle. These three facts are why glass can crack when suddenly cooled. And ironically, the same principles allow us to make tempered glass extremely strong.

Imagine you have a hot, thick piece of glass. It's uniformly heated and thus is uniformly thermally-expanded. Now dunk it in an ice water bath -- the surface will cool almost instantly on contact, but the middle has to wait for heat to conduct away before it can cool. That creates an uneven thermal profile, where the surface is cold but the inside is hot.

As a result, the surface shrinks! Or it tries to. The hot inner glass prevents the surface glass from shrinking. This creates a powerful stress profile through the glass -- the surface is trying to shrink, but can't, so it is forced into tension. The hot core is trying to stay the same volume, but the surface is squeezing in, so the core undergoes compression.

Ok, so it's under stress now, so what? Glass has enormous compressive strength. And any confined solid subjected to purely hydrostatic stress (from all sides equally) is pretty much invincible. (You can drop an egg or a piece of fine china to the bottom of the ocean and the pressure will not break it.) Glass also has, rather surprisingly, enormous tensile strength -- in laboratory testing of ultra-pure specimens, tensile strengths over one million pounds per square inch have been observed. Under controlled conditions, glass is actually much stronger than metal.

But real conditions aren't controlled, and as we all know, glass is incredibly brittle. The tiniest flaw or scratch on the surface is able to act as anucleation site for brittle failure. Once a fracture is initiated in stressed glass, cracks can spread and grow like a lightning bolt. Stress concentrates at the tip of the fracture, causing it to lengthen until the entire piece is cracked through. Sosurface glass under tension is very weak in practice. (Note that I say "surface" here. That's important later.)

So in our hot-glass-in-ice-water example, the surface is trying to shrink but can't, meaning it is suddenly under tension. And the core is put into compression by resisting the shrinkage. It's not hard to figure out which section of glass wins the tug-of-war -- the surface fails first. And a crack grows out of some microscopic scratch or flaw, growing and spreading until the stress is suffiently relieved or the glass is broken clean through.

That's why hot glass breaks when it's suddenly cooled. But there's a really cool way to use this effect to make glassstronger.

"Tempered glass" is glass that has been treated with heat to make it stronger and safer. A large pane of regular glass is heated to the point where it is soft and able to yield, so it is able to very slightly flow and redistribute internal stresses. Then the surface is blasted with cold air, causing it to cool and rapidly shrink just like the earlier example. But this time, the core is so hot that it is able to harmlessly yield a little, preventing a build-up of tension in the cooler surface layer. It's kind of like how a paper clip can be bent in half without snapping. Hot glass has some ductility -- it's not brittle.

So now the pane of glass has this cool, shrunken surface layer, and a hot, expanded core, and minimal stresses (unlike the earlier case). Now the entire pane is allowed to cool a bit slower, so the core is able to re-harden and shrink. As the core cools, it tries to shrink, but now the surface glass won't let it contract. So the core develops a large amount of tensile stress, because it wants to shrink, while the surface develops compressive stress as it's pulled by the cooling core.

Remember, glass is exceptionally strong in compression. And the inner core can't be scratched by daily use, so fractures aren't initiated and the high "laboratory" tensile strength of glass is able to come into play. So tempered glass gets the best of glass's material properties, without the downsides.

In order for tempered glass to crack, the surface must be put in tension so a fracture can propagate away from a surface scratch. But it's already in compression -- meaning breaking tempered glass requires overcoming all that residual internal compressive stress. Thus, the failure point is dramatically raised.


http://chicagowindowexpert.com/2...

And in an extremely fortuitous turn of events, as soon as a crack does manage to penetrate the surface to reach the high-tension core, the entire pane of glass shatters into tiny pieces. All that trapped internal tension just needs a single fracture to get it started, and the whole high-stress zone breaks itself to bits. This means broken tempered glass makes thousands of small pieces rather than large jagged shards. This is a huge safety feature in applications like cars where broken glass may strike passengers in an accident.

I find this to be a marvelous concept. By putting glass under great internal stress, we make it more resistant to external stress! Rapid cooling destroys regular hot glass, but strengthens reallyhot glass."
 

Flagg420

Well-Known Member
I dont understand why everyone keeps not understanding this concept....

Hes not asking what will happen if he lets the heat build real high in his hoods, and then blasts them with icy air....

Look man, just make sure you have your intake mounted in such a way that you are not pulling in debris, or rain/snow etc. to blow into your 'closed lighting ventilation system' (that hald this forum runs, yet no every on this post seems to have never heard of, as if no one runs a sealed co2 rich grow box) My IN vent is from beneath the building, w/ a piece of 1/4" mesh screen over it. Up thru the lighting system, out thru the 440 n exhausted thru 6" hole in board, mounted in window. (less damaging than a 6" hole in side of building) This way I can add a portable A/C or space heater on a thermostatic outlet as needed. Even in the summer the cool air under the building n a nice bonus.

Thing you need to remember is, if your fan is already running when the lights come on, they will start cool, and get warm, and only at a speed allowed by the ventilation.

Bottom line, you were high when you thought of this, and had your steps out of order, so it didn't seem right.... You're fine, set it up right, and your fine.
 

Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
I dont understand why everyone keeps not understanding this concept....

Hes not asking what will happen if he lets the heat build real high in his hoods, and then blasts them with icy air....

Look man, just make sure you have your intake mounted in such a way that you are not pulling in debris, or rain/snow etc. to blow into your 'closed lighting ventilation system' (that hald this forum runs, yet no every on this post seems to have never heard of, as if no one runs a sealed co2 rich grow box) My IN vent is from beneath the building, w/ a piece of 1/4" mesh screen over it. Up thru the lighting system, out thru the 440 n exhausted thru 6" hole in board, mounted in window. (less damaging than a 6" hole in side of building) This way I can add a portable A/C or space heater on a thermostatic outlet as needed. Even in the summer the cool air under the building n a nice bonus.

Thing you need to remember is, if your fan is already running when the lights come on, they will start cool, and get warm, and only at a speed allowed by the ventilation.

Bottom line, you were high when you thought of this, and had your steps out of order, so it didn't seem right.... You're fine, set it up right, and your fine.
 

Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
I dont understand why everyone keeps not understanding this concept....

Hes not asking what will happen if he lets the heat build real high in his hoods, and then blasts them with icy air....

Look man, just make sure you have your intake mounted in such a way that you are not pulling in debris, or rain/snow etc. to blow into your 'closed lighting ventilation system' (that hald this forum runs, yet no every on this post seems to have never heard of, as if no one runs a sealed co2 rich grow box) My IN vent is from beneath the building, w/ a piece of 1/4" mesh screen over it. Up thru the lighting system, out thru the 440 n exhausted thru 6" hole in board, mounted in window. (less damaging than a 6" hole in side of building) This way I can add a portable A/C or space heater on a thermostatic outlet as needed. Even in the summer the cool air under the building n a nice bonus.

Thing you need to remember is, if your fan is already running when the lights come on, they will start cool, and get warm, and only at a speed allowed by the ventilation.

Bottom line, you were high when you thought of this, and had your steps out of order, so it didn't seem right.... You're fine, set it up right, and your fine.
That's pretty much how I would imagine the setup would have to be. But again, I'm not trying to run this setup lol! The question came up in another thread (This one - https://www.rollitup.org/t/600-watt-cool-tube-2x3x5-tent-kush-cheese-greenhouseseeds.848114/ ) and I didn't feel as if there was enough solid information to give a solid answer, so I started this thread in search of collecting some answers in one place on the topic. Someone has posted saying this has been discussed a lot, but what search results I found (I fucking hate navigating riu on my phone) weren't really anything more than opinion with some minor electrical facts thrown about.



Maybe if I refine the question a bit... IF someone vented air directly from outside, with moisture/debris filter in place, could hid bulbs be safely used in conjunction with such a ventilation system? What are the safe temperature zones bulbs can operate in? Obviously these bulbs are relatively, if not completely, the same as the ones we see in security lights outside and they operate in a sealed environment perfectly fine in sub -50°f. Which would lead me to believe that so would our bulbs we use in our grows. One thing that I haven't been able to find solid information on at all is on the condensation that seems inevitable as the bulb and hood heat up. In theory I would assume that a strong enough inline fan could move air fast enough to avoid condensation buildup on anything, but I don't know. I'm also unsure of how this will affect the longevity of said bulb. We already have to replace bulbs every now and then to keep the lumen output from degrading too low, so no need to expedite the process if that's what really cold temps do.


So, if anyone can add anything new or can build upon what's been posted, please do.

And for the last time. This. Is. Not. Something. I'm. Attempting. To. Do.
I'm just looking for knowledge
 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
If lower light output/accelerated depreciation/spectral shift is what your going for, by all means cool your bulb directly ;-)......the salt/halide arcs need to run at a specific temp for them to operate optimally.....
 

Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
If lower light output/accelerated depreciation/spectral shift is what your going for, by all means cool your bulb directly ;-)......the salt/halide arcs need to run at a specific temp for them to operate optimally.....
Could you elaborate a little bit more on that please? You seem to actually know what you're talking about. =)
 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
Could you elaborate a little bit more on that please? You seem to actually know what you're talking about. =)
Not much to elaborate and no industry secrets here; it's a well known fact grower :-)......the top hid bulb manufactures(Philips/Osram/hortilux) don't recommend cool-tubes for this reason. The top fixture/reflector manufactures(gavita/pappilon) don't make a cool-tube also for the same reason. The top growers/ops don't use cool-tubes for the same reason...lol, see a pattern?.

basically comes down to losses @ the bulb(cooling)and losses by passing through the glass tube(medium)== highly inefficient when looking at around 20-30 percent lumen loss when new/clean! You wanna make the most light out of your electricity.....

Excuse the spelling and such......pos phone

Be safe
 
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Flagg420

Well-Known Member
All I know is we use the same damn HPS bulbs n mag ballasts in every parking lot light @ my work, and in damn near any business/parking lot I ever see.... MI can get pretty damn cold, n them bulbs still do their job.

And you see how he asked PSUAGRO to elaborate, and he couldnt?

Yea, passin the light thru anything will weaken it, but the question isnt light quality.


Just use your common sense bro, HPS bulbs are in use in low temps all over, you just never think about it. Proper mounting n filtration, as discussed before, ur fine. Never let the bulb get hot before introducing the air (common sense) and you are fine.
 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
All I know is we use the same damn HPS bulbs n mag ballasts in every parking lot light @ my work, and in damn near any business/parking lot I ever see.... MI can get pretty damn cold, n them bulbs still do their job.

And you see how he asked PSUAGRO to elaborate, and he couldnt?

Yea, passin the light thru anything will weaken it, but the question isnt light quality.


Just use your common sense bro, HPS bulbs are in use in low temps all over, you just never think about it. Proper mounting n filtration, as discussed before, ur fine. Never let the bulb get hot before introducing the air (common sense) and you are fine.
Yeah because in your cold-ass parking lots the bulb is in an ENCLOSED fixture, we are talking about direct bulb cooling..........Anyways everything is ^^^ in my first post, don't wanna google extra shit on my free time:)

here a dutch industry expert(gavita) who explains losses for you gentlemen nice and clear @ 1.45 min


If you think 20-30% initial light losses aren't important to commercial growers then I don't know what to tell you....
 
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Midwest Weedist

Well-Known Member
Yeah because in your cold-ass parking lots the bulb is in an ENCLOSED fixture, we are talking about direct bulb cooling..........Anyways everything is ^^^ in my first post, don't wanna google extra shit on my free time:)

here a dutch industry expert(gavita) who explains losses for you gentlemen nice and clear @ 1.45 min


If you think 20-30% initial light losses aren't important to commercial growers then I don't know what to tell you....
Thank you again for the info. I have been reading up on those terms you mentioned in your first comment and I'm fairly positive that you're correct. I think the caveat here though is that indoor growers who aren't at a commercial level may find it more beneficial in terms of cost to go the route of venting cold air through an enclosed fixture. 600 watts in a tent gets pretty freaking hot without a cool tube or air conditioner (not always possible, thus the need for a cool tube). But again, thanks. I appreciate that you don't spoon feed people information. We're adults, we know how to Google after all. Lol
 

Flagg420

Well-Known Member
Yeah because in your cold-ass parking lots the bulb is in an ENCLOSED fixture, we are talking about direct bulb cooling..........Anyways everything is ^^^ in my first post, don't wanna google extra shit on my free time:)

here a dutch industry expert(gavita) who explains losses for you gentlemen nice and clear @ 1.45 min


If you think 20-30% initial light losses aren't important to commercial growers then I don't know what to tell you....
All well and great, but again, he isn't asking how to get the best light, nor claiming to be a commercial grower.

He's asking if its safe or not. I'm sure the lighting forum has much to say on light loss from fixtures. You're info is useful, in depth, and researched... but its still like answering '7' to a yes/no question.

Far as cool tubes in general go, in my experience, they suck balls, rape the light quality... but a vented hood w/ a nice flat sheet of glass, much nicer, and way cool.... am I losing intensity to that fixture? Yes. But I can accept that loss for the heat I lose with it....
 

GibbsIt89

Well-Known Member
OK so some good info, bin following along. But again.. we still only have one person with a yes here haha. I am thinking it is possible as well long as there is amazing air movement and your not sucking in direct snow or rain or debris. Though again, the moisture build up. Just having great air movement leaves me to question if its enough or not.

THANK YOU everyone for your input!!!

I'm the guy that is trying to do this. I have a 2'x3'x5' tent. Had a 400 watt and temps were fine so I wanted to push it with my 600watt and was going to directly cool the light from my window with 200cfm minimum.

I didnt want to risk anything so I ended up setting it up filter/fan/cooltube exhausting out which is the way I had it with my 400watt. Now ive just added a 4" 100cfm duct fan at my window directly bringing in cold air to the grow space. The 4" is kind of useless.. dont get me wrong it helps but it is still too hot, isnt carrying enough flow. So I was just going to grab a 6" duct fan and see if its any better, this is the cheap fix.

If I can cool my light directly with outside air then I can put the light WAY closer. I am using a cooltube regardless so my light is being diminished no matter how we go about things, atleast if i can cool it directly then I can set it closer thus taking back some optimal lighting ive lost in using the cooltube.

Yes most commercial professional grows I have read up on etc etc. they all run bare bulbs base up and have one huge fan/filter exhausting out of the space.
 

jijiandfarmgang

Well-Known Member
LOL, has anyone even ever tried this in this thread?

As described above it will literally rain from your intake from condensation. If you do a search you should find others talking about it.

This isn't breaking science.

- Jiji
 
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