giving defoliation during flower a try

skunkd0c said:
i find many indica doms are too leafy and have a horrible natural top heavy shape, i tend to top these plants and bend open all the branches
i find colas do grow better when not shaded, buds inside a deep canopy can have that light green/white appearance going on, shading should be avoided imo
its better if all the leaves get light including the little bud leaves but this does not have to be strong light

some plants are bottom heavy and produce large bottom colas even when several feet from the lights
blue cheese plant i grew recently finished at just over 16 oz the second largest cola was 4ft + from any light on one of the bottom branches
middle branches 2ft from the light with no shading were smaller

you make a good point about bad genetics, there are so many poorly structured plants which accounts for most of them imo,
finding the ideal hybrid/pheno with good node spacing not too many leaves open structure, colas on every branch etc / and also being a nice smoke
often requires more selection than just a pack of 10

when you have two hybrid plants that are sisters, one is expressing very indica traits and is very leafy
the other is expressing sativa traits and has fewer leaves, i do not think it is such a crime to make the ugly indica sister look a little more like her prettier sativa sister
by removing a few of the leaves lol, but only a few or she might throw a fit

peace
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totally agree with you skund0c

I like removing some leaves in veg and flower as it gives you control over the canopy shape and does increase the yield when growing leafy indica strains :)
 
jacksthc said:
totally agree with you skund0c

I like removing some leaves in veg and flower as it gives you control over the canopy shape and does increase the yield when growing leafy indica strains :)
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i would rather not have to as its more work, if i grew smaller plants in little pots or a well spaced sog/scrog with the right plant it would not be necessary
i tend to grow alot of seed plants, i let them grow wild and fill the space, never sure how big they will end up
with clones spacing should be better planned i think

i have seen it work well commercially with skunk strains, big colas with very few leaves needed
if you pack them in, 20 plants will fill the space much quicker than 10,
when they outgrow/overlap the space you can cut them into the space, you get more colas this way quicker
fitting the maximum amount of colas in the space, removing all the other branches/leaves etc

peace
 
jacksthc said:
....by spend my time learning how to train plants, shape the canopy and keep my running cost low, I am more than happy with my harvest I pull

good luck with the books
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Why would you need to pull fan leaves instead of just using a tie down of some kind?

That's what most of us do.

Regardless, IF you're pulling fan leaves to STUNT the growth of certain branches for the purpose of canopy management, imagine how STUNTED the plant will become when ALL of the fan leaves are pulled.
 
Is this the act of cutting the fan leaves back. If so then would have to say it works. I'm a first time grower and no one told me of this I just guessed it would produce more buds and thicken them up
 
NewtoMJ said:
We are on topic, because the argument being made is auxin production dictaaren't doing shit he maturity and size of the flowers not light. Naturally if a plant is trained in a way that negates most if not all of it's apical dominance(LST'ed properly as you said), then the auxin distribution would be such that yes, apical dominance won't play a role in your grow. You will also notice that your buds won't be as big as the apical branch of the same plant if it would not have been lst'ed, and that's because the auxin distribution would be such that your buds will grow uniformly. that's not to say the apical plant will yield more just that it has a larger top bud. The argument is that the larger bottom growth on a "properly" trained plant isn't from more light penetration, but from better auxin distribution. So by people arguing apical dominance, they in turn are saying removing leaves will not give you better buds from light penetration.
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I agree with that for the most part... Except for one thing.. the little shaded bud sites with the light green leaves that arent going to amount to shit, will in fact ripen and develop into much nicer nugs when they get direct light.
 
skunkd0c said:
i would rather not have to as its more work, if i grew smaller plants in little pots or a well spaced sog/scrog with the right plant it would not be necessary
i tend to grow alot of seed plants, i let them grow wild and fill the space, never sure how big they will end up
with clones spacing should be better planned i think

i have seen it work well commercially with skunk strains, big colas with very few leaves needed
if you pack them in, 20 plants will fill the space much quicker than 10,
when they outgrow/overlap the space you can cut them into the space, you get more colas this way quicker
fitting the maximum amount of colas in the space, removing all the other branches/leaves etc

peace
Click to expand...
I grow most plants from clones so I have got a good ideal how much they will grow

I live in the uk, so no grow is legal more or less they base it the number of plants, size of them and the amount of lights used (also if the grow is hydro or soil and the cost of the setup)
I have a budget setup, nutes and reuse half the soil and so I train the canopy to get the best yeild out my small plants
so for years I have been working on controlling the canopy shape and its working out really well

aiming to get every plant to grow 24" wide, 18" high and yield 4 oz's
that would give me the best yield for the lowest risk, (my average yield is 3 oz's per plant, 4 plants under a 600w hps)

and I need to be able to move the plants as I rent, moving plants this size is not easy, could no do it if they where any bigger

I have tried growing larger plants and all the weight tends to be on the top 18" of the plant ( using a single 600w hps horizontal above the canopy)

so removing a few fan leaves really helps me hit my target after topping and pulling the shoots down to fill the room
 
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Wilksey said:
Why would you need to pull fan leaves instead of just using a tie down of some kind?

That's what most of us do.

Regardless, IF you're pulling fan leaves to STUNT the growth of certain branches for the purpose of canopy management, imagine how STUNTED the plant will become when ALL of the fan leaves are pulled.
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The first thing I do is top and lst the plant and removing fan leaves to keep all the shoots the same lenth

and removing fan leaves seems be to be the only way, is there any other way to pull this off ?

in flower if I don't remove any fan leaves the shoots strech loads and there a bigger gap between the nodes

removing a few top fan leaves stops the shoots streching and the nodes are a lot closer
 
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Jimdamick said:
Me, myself and I cut light blockers to the bud around 3 weeks before harvest. Those fan leaves are half shot anyway, and the added light to the bud definitely helps them in my opinion. I do not cut every leaf, but only the ones above bud sites. Try it. Keep some bud under a leaf, and cut some leafs above bud site. Simple test, and you will see which is better.Peace out.
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That's exactly my thoughts and actions ^
 
jacksthc said:
The first thing I do is top and lst the plant and removing fan leaves to keep all the shoots the same lenth

and removing fan leaves seems be to be the only way, is there any other way to pull this off ?

in flower if I don't remove any fan leaves the shoots strech loads and there a bigger gap between the nodes

removing a few top fan leaves stops the shoots streching and the nodes are a lot closer
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You can't simply just tie down the taller shoots to keep everything on the same level? That seems to work for me, however, it can widen the plant out, which may not be good for you.

How about supercropping / bending / crimping the rogue branches to inhibit further growth until they heal?

Regardless, your technique is certainly in the realm of "canopy management" and not "defoliation", and while I prefer to keep as many leaves as I can for photosynthesis and transpiration purposes, I can see how stunting the growth of a vegging / early flowering plant can contribute to the control a grower wants.

Yanking all the fan leaves off to provide light to bud sites for bigger and better buds, however, is just fookin' stupid and does the exact opposite.

Luck to you and your gardens.
 
danknugg said:
That's exactly my thoughts and actions ^
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I assume that everyone is growing in the same medium, same lighting conditions same variety and with the same techniques I really fucking doubt it though.. If you grow outdoors, there is no need to trim, as it is in an environment that, thru natural wind and light movement, the optimum light is alway's available. It is self adjusting.. Indoor growing is another ball of wax. Lighting from directly above forever (unless you have light movers, or side lighting, and what are they for? Keeping the plants straight, or provide side lighting to the bud sites? I'm not sure.). This is my opinion as to why the trimming of problem leaves is good for a marijuana plant. First, I will say that the fans are indispensable for the plant, through out's it's life.Fan leaves are paramount in the diagnoses of plant problems. They are the first thing to tell that, you have a problem. Another reason fan's are indispensable in indoor soil, is that they are your little reservoirs for water. They sometimes are called water leaves for that reason. They will tell you that the plant is too dry, before your buds get affected. BUT, in a pure hydro system, they are not needed as much. in my experience. How many leaves are maintained in a SOG system? They are not needed for water or food storage, as both are readably available. They are needed as light gatherers, as without them you will have a dead plant. So, indoors in soil in a well maintained system, I never felt it was a problem to cut bottom fans, and a majority of the middle leaves if they are blocking a bud site, then they will be removed, I leave most of the top forever. I run a Waterfarm 12 pod system and have to do the same, as due to the proximity of the plants. So, my point is that in a field, or plants 4 feet apart, don't bother cutting. BUT, if you have jammed plants, in a hydro system, no problem, if done with some thought.
 
At a little over a year into growing I am a Noob.
I have been growing the same strain For the whole year, flowering one at a time.
I now keep a Mom and Clones in my E/B veg under 216 watt T5HO.
So my Bagseed and clones that I am working are a Sativa dom Hybrid that flowers in nine weeks exactly.

During my first flower attempts I struggled not knowing why.
Every 9 weeks I flowered a plant each time getter a little smarter.

But I had drank the cool aid ;-/
(and I think it's Wearing off thanks to many Oldtimers here on RIU and my own experiments of food mixing to fulfill the needs of the plants responses in growth or weakness as I witnessed them.
Each time Flowered I dialed into making one food, I don't know the NPK values off hand.

My food, fox Farm hydro three part with three flowering additives for optimum out put.
(Yeah right....)
So I mix my Nutes my way not the way they tell me.
I always have my High N veg food in my mix, then my microbes and then a high P and K additive to run about 1000-1005 PPM for my flowering and the same ratio at 650 PPM for my veg.
I measure ppm with a meter and I use A syringe to measure foods
1/3 third N food, 1/3 microbes, 1/3, P/K to get to 1000 - 1005 PPM then PH up to 5.8by the gallon.

That is not how fox farm tells you to grow, that's for sure!

I always heavy a large dose of N in every feeding.

I TRY and keep my plants healthy till the end of flower I flower under a 400 watts HPS with T5 side lighting.
My highest weight was 10 ounces the 4 others were others 8, 6, 6, 7 ounces respectively all from flowering one plant at a time.
Proper LST, super cropping and selective topping in veg and then tying branches down to cause inner shoots to fill in the canopy. I vegged the 10 oz plant 7 months.
(I started a bunch of seeds from a bag of bud at the same time.
20 seeds, I had 16 males that I killed off and 4 females that I started to train early I waited 60 days before I flowered.
I let them all grow and kept training them as they waited in turn to be flowered.
I am know running clones from the last of the 4 original females.

At NO time did I defoliate, I tuck, I bend, I tie back but I don't remove the energy source of the plant.
Also when a plant has a health issue like a nute lockup (because I made a mistake)

It is the fan leaves that are canabilized by the plant to keep it getting the NPK ratio that the pheno needs to continue to grow.
The plant then can bounce back after lockup and gets fixed to allow green growth.
Not die off or grow smaller buds because fan leaves were removed.

Removal of a fan leaf stunts growth at that exact Node.

You might force more bud sites but they are smaller in general for the lights and foods everyone uses.

I run a pretty small simple deal, one 3x3 tent and a veg in a closet.

So far I am happy and I think I produce pretty good for one plant at a time , a plant that has 40-50 tops.
I will continue to try and balance my Nutes myself.

Good luck to you....
You Defoliate, damn how can it be good to take away the solar feeding source of the plant, take away the transpiration source of the plant and take away the "battery source". All things done by the fan leaves.
Why would defoliating work?

I ate some cookies and I am VERY high so I may have "ran at the fingers".
Bless,
DZ
 
Jimdamick said:
If you grow outdoors, there is no need to trim, as it is in an environment that, thru natural wind and light movement, the optimum light is alway's available. It is self adjusting.
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And you still get popcorn buds at the lower levels. Noobs, keep parroting the same ol bullshit as parroted by the former new crop of noobs that went before you. This isn't about light.
 
Dogenzengi said:
Removal of a fan leaf stunts growth at that exact Node.
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No it doesn't. The translocation of goodies made during photosynthesis is not localized, if it was roots wouldn't develop. That's a forum myth, a paradigm

Has anyone heard of plant conduits called the xylem and phloem? Any one have a clue what they're used for by the plant? Any one have a clue as to what makes a plant tick?
:bigjoint:


UB
 
Uncle Ben said:
No it doesn't. The translocation of goodies made during photosynthesis is not localized, if it was roots wouldn't develop. That's a forum myth, a paradigm

Has anyone heard of plant conduits called the xylem and phloem? Any one have a clue what they're used for by the plant? Any one have a clue as to what makes a plant tick?
:bigjoint:


UB
Click to expand...
leaf production for $500 Alex
 
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