Water Cooling Help Please..... Mak'n me Crazy

angryp

angryp

Member
:wall: >:( Really need some help on water cooling..... On my 3rd grow now and have decided to switch from a/c to water cool. I run aeroflo 60 only using 3 tubes and 15 sites, 40 gallon res (nutes) indoors with orca film on walls and floor, 8" raptor hood, 1000 watt phantom ballast, cyclone chiller for nutes, 4' can with 750 cfm fan. With switching to water cooling I'm ditching the a/c and all vents sealed room using bagged Co2. I live in socal the desert so hot as hell, here.
Ok so I bought a 11x10 titanium heat exchanger with copper fins used in the food industries, 1/4hp hydrofarm chillers (active aqua), 55 gallon drum (res), aapw1000 active aqua pump (submersed), general hydroponics tnc 1/4hp pump, insulated 1/2" line and grozone TV2 controller. Run the pump aapw1000 in the 55 drum and out to chiller and back, the gh tnc pump is drilled into bottom of drum outside feeding the heat exchanger hooked to the raptor hood at one end and the other end has the 750 cfm fan hooked to the TV2 controller. Can't seem to keep the room in the range im looking for 76 night and 79 - 81 daytime. I've tried this in every configuration I can think of;
1) aapw1000 to chiller to heat exchanger and back
2) aapw1000 to heat exchanger to chiller and then res
3) put two pumps as stated above
4) Adjusted fan speeds up and down
5) adjusted aapw1000's intake from max. to min.
6) Ran 3/4" pvc from the tnc pump up and over to heat exchange and then back to the 1/2" insulated line.
7) pulled instead of pushed air through the hood
Went from 25 gallons in drum upto 50 gallons (per hydro innovations technical support)
9) 1st attempt at this was the reason I spent $675 on the titanium copper coiled heat exchanger was so I could hook upto hood run straight down to my nute res (standard 40 gallon aeroflo 60 res) and back down to it using a second tnc pump in the drain port ( for you guys that know gh aeroflo 60). Problem there was the 1/4hp cyclone chiller cannot keep up, with heat exchange and would raise res temps to 74-76 didn't want to risk root rot and all the problems that come with high temps in the res. Soooo I scrapped that and bought the extra chiller and pump just for the heat exchanger.

Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated, seems like this is definitely the way to go and there seems to be some guys on here that really know their stuff.

I'll upload some daytime pics tomorrow, sorry about the dark one just wanted to show the res and chillers are outside the room.

Also use blue lab gardian,
Ranco duel controller,
Xnutrients
Nutes 67°
ph 5.7
ppm low 630 using .70

Respect

California prop215 sb420 patient, so not Worried about LEO....
Burning now today and tomorrowbongsmilie
 

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jijiandfarmgang

jijiandfarmgang

Well-Known Member
Step one: ditch the Co2 bag (worthless imho)

Step two: ditch the heat exchanger on the light (don't really understand that method, its inferior to everything else)

Step three: Keep light sealed and exhaust outside of room

go from there


- Jiji
 
nonamedman420

nonamedman420

Well-Known Member
the problem is the 1/4 hp chiller, active aqua. went same route, made my own ice boxes out of heater cores, rectangular vent ducts from lowes and in the end the chiller was too small. you need a bigger chiller, and do yourself a favor and make sure u insulate the hoses bcuz humidity=dew=mold
 
angryp

angryp

Member
superstoner1 said:
After many years I decided to go water cooling. After I got smart I got a super efficient mini split ac and would never consider water again. In fact I just got my 2nd mini split
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input seriously thinking about the split a/c, worried about a nosey neighbors only 10 feet between houses in track and the guy next door is up my ass all the time. Really thinking of buying larger chiller and ditching my cyclone chiller and run a coil in nutes res.
 
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angryp

angryp

Member
nonamedman420 said:
the problem is the 1/4 hp chiller, active aqua. went same route, made my own ice boxes out of heater cores, rectangular vent ducts from lowes and in the end the chiller was too small. you need a bigger chiller, and do yourself a favor and make sure u insulate the hoses bcuz humidity=dew=mold
Click to expand...
How did it work after you ugraded chiller? If I replaced both chillers with a coil in the nutes res and cooled the 1000w, thinking 1/2hp or even 1hp ecoplus commercial chiller, thoughts?
 
angryp

angryp

Member
jijiandfarmgang said:
Step one: ditch the Co2 bag (worthless imho)

Step two: ditch the heat exchanger on the light (don't really understand that method, its inferior to everything else)

Step three: Keep light sealed and exhaust outside of room

go from there


- Jiji
Click to expand...
1) I have a hydrogen pro co2 burner but at this point no sense in using because the cooling issues I already have. Used bags last three times worked well the ppm got upto 1200. I will definitely switch to the hydrogen co2 burner when I get cooling issue under control.

2) The heat exchanger hooked to hood is exactly the same idea as an icebox but instead of 64 square inches I have 110 square inches, I understand that I should make a shroud to get full use, but this is a pretty standard thing in water cooling, right, or am I just not understanding the idea water cooling. Respect

3) That is exactly how I had it ran before attempting water cooling but with outside temps reaching 105° plus out here, it really is just movimg hot air over the bulb, correct?

let me know if im totally of base here, im trying to water cool the room no a/c. Thanks
 
jijiandfarmgang

jijiandfarmgang

Well-Known Member
Its not that you have it hooked up wrong, your setup is doomed to fail.

I've never cooled a room with a chiller before. But I don't understand running an air cooled hood, with a heat exchanger. That is definitely not the way to go.

If your going to use an air cooled hood, use a centrifugal or axial hybrid fan and duct it outside of the room.

- Jiji
 
superstoner1

superstoner1

Well-Known Member
don'tdoniandfarmgang said:
Its not that you have it hooked up wrong, your setup is doomed to fail.

I've never cooled a room with a chiller before. But I don't understand running an air cooled hood, with a heat exchanger. That is definitely not the way to go.

If your going to use an air cooled hood, use a centrifugal or axial hybrid fan and duct it outside of the room.

- Jiji
Click to expand...
If you dont understand it how can you say that? That is how its done when using water cooling in many grows.
 
angryp

angryp

Member
jijiandfarmgang said:
Its not that you have it hooked up wrong, your setup is doomed to fail.

I've never cooled a room with a chiller before. But I don't understand running an air cooled hood, with a heat exchanger. That is definitely not the way to go.

If your going to use an air cooled hood, use a centrifugal or axial hybrid fan and duct it outside of the room.

- Jiji
Click to expand...
Cool, gotcha. I did use a 750 cfm 8" vortex fan with 8" duct from outside thru the hood and out into attic, works well in winter months with almost no need to use any other cooling but in the summer months I need cooling because of the heat being pulled over the bulb doesn't cool, it actually heats it up, and adds heat to the room as it gets over 100° from May - October. (Pulling that hot air over the bulb)

? Have you ever seen the hydro innovations icebox (demonstration on youtube)?

This is exactly the same principle push heat with fan thru hood over the bulb and over the cooled coils of the heat exchanger (radiator) to cool the room in a sense its an air conditioner but using 3-4amps instead of 10-12 and even more under load. The idea is a sealed room, my understanding only really done two ways water cooling or mini-split a/c, my be wrong here but thats how I understood it. With the exchange of air your introducing pathogens, critters and losing the Co2 youve spent good money to build up. Thanks for the input I seriously appreciate it

Ive attached a few pics below of the fan ducts I use in the cooler months. Also has extra 6" duct out for extra exhaust with an air scrubber if needed and an 8" by pass for pressure if necessary. Also a pic of last grow cataract tested at 21%
 

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angryp

angryp

Member
superstoner1 said:
If you dont understand it how can you say that? That is how its done when using water cooling in many grows.
Click to expand...
Ok so I am on the right path here, I'm getting ready to change out the gh tnc 1/4hp 1264gph pump for a danner proline hy-drive 2600gph pump which has a lot more head (26.5' compared to 16'). More head should help me move water faster as im only picking up 3° from chiller res through the heat exchang and back down to chiller res. Idea here is moving water faster... it would pick up less heat and possibly solve the problem. Also from all the reading I've been doing it suggests as more head is needed the volume really is diminished... drastically. Anyone thoughts on this? Plus pump only a couple hundred and im determined to figure this out.

Last idea before change out chiller for a 1/2hp or 1hp commercial chiller. Hope I'm close because I feel like I getting a masters degree in cooling systems lol Respect
 
jijiandfarmgang

jijiandfarmgang

Well-Known Member
superstoner1 said:
If you dont understand it how can you say that? That is how its done when using water cooling in many grows.
Click to expand...
I don't understand why anyone would do it. I understand how it works and its just plain dumb. Whether or not its how people do it doesn't mean its a good idea.

Have you ever seen the hydro innovations icebox (demonstration on youtube)?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I saw that video, from the manufacturer\ retailer. Looks really cool, its neat and tidy, but a Horrible setup imho.

Instead of writing a page of why you should or shouldn't anymore I'm just going to post some observations and facts and let you decide.

HPS bulbs work more efficiently at a high temperature, if your cooling it enough that cold air comes out of the hood well then.....

HPS put out more light when there is no glass,....everyone knows this but its only a small amount and sometimes you need aircooled

Tiny indoor chillers aren't that efficient.

You can't compare (not saying you are) a commercial outdoor chiller with an air handler efficiently cooling a small or large area with a small chiller trying to cool a room.

air conditioning your house when its 100 outside, then sealing your grow room from air conditioning, then putting your chiller in a room (your using your central air to cool).....not efficient

The most efficient way to cool a HPS is with a fan, and easiest way to get it out of the room is duct work, you could even intake from another room thats slightly cooler and exhaust wherever and still be sealed and run CO2.

You could air cool that hood and separately just mount a fan to that heat exchanger.

You can keep throwing money at it if you want..........buying another pump isn't going to help

- Jiji
 
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angryp

angryp

Member
jijiandfarmgang said:
I don't understand why anyone would do it. I understand how it works and its just plain dumb. Whether or not its how people do it doesn't mean its a good idea.



Yeah, I saw that video, from the manufacturer\ retailer. Looks really cool, its neat and tidy, but a Horrible setup imho.

Instead of writing a page of why you should or shouldn't anymore I'm just going to post some observations and facts and let you decide.

HPS bulbs work more efficiently at a high temperature, if your cooling it enough that cold air comes out of the hood well then.....

HPS put out more light when there is no glass,....everyone knows this but its only a small amount and sometimes you need aircooled

Tiny indoor chillers aren't that efficient.

You can't compare (not saying you are) a commercial outdoor chiller with an air handler efficiently cooling a small or large area with a small chiller trying to cool a room.

air conditioning your house when its 100 outside, then sealing your grow room from air conditioning, then putting your chiller in a room (your using your central air to cool).....not efficient

The most efficient way to cool a HPS is with a fan, and easiest way to get it out of the room is duct work, you could even intake from another room thats slightly cooler and exhaust wherever and still be sealed and run CO2.

You could air cool that hood and separately just mount a fan to that heat exchanger.

You can keep throwing money at it if you want..........buying another pump isn't going to help

- Jiji
Click to expand...
Well first it definitely seems that you are against water cooling, which is cool everybody has there preferencesand opinions. That said....

The cold air coming out of exchanger is after the bulbs not before it is true that the air in the room is then cooler when it returns back through fan and over the bulb but that would be the same as pulling cooler air from outside or from another room cooled by central air.... so seems the same here, object is to cool the heat coming off the bulb.

As far as the hps bulb working at higher temps no argument there but 76-85 seems to be the target for most growers so really dont see how that applies for any application we are using. Also it is true that some of the certain rays are partially block (I believe uv & uvb & par, not positive here) in this case running an open hood would put off crazy heat and ive realy only heard of it's use in huge open area's or warehouse grows or in extremely colder area's. The best way to achieve no loss of the par and uv rays and actually increase them is crystal sheet glass which is hard to find but is well worth the hunt (few local glass shops) mine cost $95 from the local shop.

Im with on pulling air from outside of tent (air conditioned room) to exit, the problem I've always had is air leaks in ducting and hood causing positive or negative presure with in the room (yes, ive foiled tape everything over and over, you'll still get leaks, IMHO) especially when your moving your hood 4-5 ft through the grow and a super pain in the ass when changing bulbs, running 4-5 cycles a year. Curious on how you test this.

The room thats sealed is in a house with central air but as previously stated above no way to use that cooled air unless I want to lose RH, Co2 and deal with presure problems. Also the chillers exit air are forced outside and that part of the room stays to the exact degree of ambient as the rest of the house.

I definitely agree with on the use of a non commercial as that will probably be a bullet I'll have to bite, buying a commercial chiller.

Also I have thought of putting the ducting back the way I had it outside to attic and running the heat exchanger (radiator) with a shroud and the 750cfm fan in corner of the room, may be the easiest cheapest, and fastest way to solve the problem. This is really about finishing what I started just because a plan didn't work the first time doesn't mean I'm just going to scrap and go back to doing what wasn't working ($650 electric bill) air conditioning running 24/7.
The idea here is to hold my temps at set points and drastically diminish the electric used. Obviously this is a new technology for grow rooms and I understand its not for everyone but when it works it works and plenty of growers are using it successfully, just search it in this site.

Appreciate the input and thank you for the back and forth understanding that everybody has there own opinions and preferences.
 
jijiandfarmgang

jijiandfarmgang

Well-Known Member
I'm not against water cooling. I'm actually interested in passive cooling which would be the best in a cold climate.

I guess I just assumed you were flowing it against the bulb, in that video they were

Crystal sheet glass......never heard of it...and I'm a skeptic, have any references for that data?

I don't move my lights that much, but veg in a different spot

How low would your RH go?

You should be able to seal your duct\hood. Maybe a smoke candle might help.

- Jiji
 
angryp

angryp

Member
jijiandfarmgang said:
I'm not against water cooling. I'm actually interested in passive cooling which would be the best in a cold climate.

I guess I just assumed you were flowing it against the bulb, in that video they were

Crystal sheet glass......never heard of it...and I'm a skeptic, have any references for that data?

I don't move my lights that much, but veg in a different spot

How low would your RH go?

You should be able to seal your duct\hood. Maybe a smoke candle might help.

- Jiji
Click to expand...
Yes, in a cooler climate passive would be awesome and really probably the smartest way to go just ducting and fan and no expensive cooling. Like I said earlier I run a paasive setup in the cooler months with no real problems with heat. I domztill, run my cyclone chiller for the nutes tho.

Crystal glass can be researched online as I did, I'll locate a few links when I get some time in the next few days.

The air flow goes from fan over the bulb then over the heat exchanger and then circulating the room and back through the fan which is cooler air do to the exchange, just like there video. With all I've been through with this im really thinking that without an extremely oversized chiller that I'll never get where I want it, consistently. Im really considering a split air now like a 12000 btu dc invertered high seer one. There cheap, efficient and wont mess with my Co2, RH.

The humidity here is 20% the desert, so the humidity in the room is made through the airflow and a 5 gallon bucket of water with a few 4" air stones.

Yea, I move the hood more than I would like, im going to try the candle trick. I'm going to change the setup today. Hook back up to the 8" 750cfm fan and pull the air from the outside and try and use the other 750cfm fan on the heat exchanger in corner (spot cooling) amd see if I can control temps better. If that doesn't work I'm going to pull the air from the outside room and through to the attic. While I wait for the split air to be delivered. Respect
 
angryp

angryp

Member
Twitch. said:
just get the mini split... you will thank your self in the long run
http://thermospace.com/ductless_split/mini_ductless_split.php

call and ask for March in sales he will hook you up, i have bought a few of them.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the hook up going to call him now, ive found several mini split air conditioners online for, under $600 for 12000btu with 13-23 seers. From Pioneer, Senville, Air-con, etc. Any thing in particular to look for in one being used in a grow room. I really like the Senville, dc inverter, 115v, high seer.

Do you know if there the drop humidity in the room as I have make my humidity due to the dry climate here and a total closed aeroflo system. Respect
 
Twitch

Twitch

Well-Known Member
its all closed so it should not mess with the humidity, they have Mitsubishi compressors, which go look up what a Mitsubishi brand one costs. they are the best, and they are made by gree, which is supposed to be good, and they where at my house in 5 days.
you have to keep in mind each 1000 watt light puts out 4000btu to 5000btu so 400watts put off around 2000btu and 600watts around 3000, and if you have a co2 burner in the room it will say on the side how many btus puts out, i have an 8 burner that does like 25k btus so i have 72k buts of cooling for my 11 air cooled 1000 and 36k btus for 11 400 watts
 
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