Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

Pattahabi said:
I'll be interested if anyone answers this question on the other site. So what are you thinking the minimal cec is for a productive living organic soil is then?
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That's above my pay grade! Based on my observations since cutting my peat portion of the base with 50% coco coir I'm *guessing* that it's not as high as what some may think. It would be nice to take some soil samples up to Michigan State U or something and have them analyzed, but really I'm more interested in how the plants respond than figuring out the CEC of my medium. Coot raised some interesting points on the enviornmental impact of coir, so that causes me to pull back on the reins a bit. If leaf mold holds up to everything else, I would have to believe that would give you the best of both worlds no? High in carbon and organic matter, high in BIM's, free, virtually no footprint ..... just takes some time to decompose (and lots of leaves).
 
st0wandgrow said:
That's above my pay grade! Based on my observations since cutting my peat portion of the base with 50% coco coir I'm *guessing* that it's not as high as what some may think. It would be nice to take some soil samples up to Michigan State U or something and have them analyzed, but really I'm more interested in how the plants respond than figuring out the CEC of my medium. Coot raised some interesting points on the enviornmental impact of coir, so that causes me to pull back on the reins a bit. If leaf mold holds up to everything else, I would have to believe that would give you the best of both worlds no? High in carbon and organic matter, high in BIM's, free, virtually no footprint ..... just takes some time to decompose (and lots of leaves).
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I absolutely think leaf mold is a better option if sustainability is of high importance, no comparison. So if you leave out sustainability issue, what are the major reasons for using coco over peat? Better water retention? Not from the reports I have seen. Peat can be hydrophobic? You shouldn't be letting your pots dry out in the first place. Better pH buffer? I have no coco, no lime, and no pH problems. In fact, I don't think I've seen really anyone running a true living organic soil have pH problems? I look at the new people who have never tried living organics, and they are not having pH problems. I can see everyone is pro coco on this site, but I just don't see it, even after researching some of the claims.

Just my opinion,
P-
 
Pattahabi said:
I absolutely think leaf mold is a better option if sustainability is of high importance, no comparison. So if you leave out sustainability issue, what are the major reasons for using coco over peat? Better water retention? Not from the reports I have seen. Peat can be hydrophobic? You shouldn't be letting your pots dry out in the first place. Better pH buffer? I have no coco, no lime, and no pH problems. In fact, I don't think I've seen really anyone running a true living organic soil have pH problems? I look at the new people who have never tried living organics, and they are not having pH problems. I can see everyone is pro coco on this site, but I just don't see it, even after researching some of the claims.

Just my opinion,
P-
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I agree with you on leaf mold. I will be xperimenting with it in due time, and if it's comparable to peat/coco then it will be a no-brainer for me.

I'm not really "pro-coco", I'm just trying a different base. Coot, MM, et al are VERY pro-peat, and that's fine, but I don't buy for one second that it's the be-all end-all. I do have serious reservations about using peat because a) it's harvested from a delicate eco-system, b) I'm from the country where most of it gets harvested, and c) it's very acidic. I know that you haven't run into any issues with funky ph, but I have, and it cost me dearly. Probably a noob mistake at the time, but still a consideration for me.

As I said earlier, Coot's point about the enviornmental drawbacks of coir makes me a little less keen on using it, but all things considered IF it stacks up just as well as peat in my garden, then at a minimum I will continue to use it 50/50 with peat, or may even transition to using it exclusively until I can introduce leaf mold in to my garden. Coot's point was hypothesizing what deforestation *may* happen due to the increasing demand for coco products, where as the peat harvesting is actually taking place, and has been for decades. There's a ton of carbon sequestered in those bogs and the impact of releasing that in to the atmosphere doubles down on the importance of not using it for me. At this point I view coco as the lesser of two evils.
 
I recycle my soil, so I feel the sustainability issue is even less of a factor. Now don't get me wrong I'm far from someone that wants to destroy ecosystems for convenience of my indoor growing. Just like you were getting at with cec, you have to draw a line somewhere. I too will be looking into leaf mold, I'm just a little strapped for space and time atm.

Seems every time I see someone with a pH problem, they have a crappy humus source. Not always the case, but whose to say the peat is to blame? Yes, it may be acidic, but we are letting the soil food web dictate pH correct? I have only had pH issues with coco, and surely I had a low humus content, low microbial population and low cec.

Also interested on your take of C:N in the soil per MM. This is not something I had previously thought of, but really interesting.

P-
 
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As discussed above, large volumes of water are used to wash (and buffer) coir pith. This is generally achieved by hosing or spraying water over mounds of coir pith placed either directly on soil or on concrete floors. The run-off from these processes will contain high salts, chemical, microbial and physical contaminants. If the run-off is untreated it will contaminate surface water, groundwater and soils. The issue can be resolved by washing on concrete floors, collecting the run-off and treating the effluent, which was observed in some of the factories.
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If you go to page 11 it starts on some of the problems of the industry where this is quoted from.

Thanks to MikeH for posting this.
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Edit: I am unfamiliar with the coco coir production process. This article says coir is either separated mechanically, or is done by retting. I thought DonTesla said people did this by hand? I found this on retting:

The most widely practiced method of retting is called water retting, by submerging bundles of stalks in water. The water, penetrating to the central stalk portion, swells the inner cells, bursting the outermost layer, thus increasing absorption of both moisture and decay-producing bacteria. Retting time must be carefully judged; under-retting makes separation difficult, and over-retting weakens the fibre. In double retting, a gentle process producing excellent fibre, the stalks are removed from the water before retting is completed, dried for several months, then retted again.[1]

Natural water retting employs stagnant or slow-moving waters, such as ponds, bogs, and slow streams and rivers. The stalk bundles are weighted down, usually with stones or wood, for about 8 to 14 days, depending upon water temperature and mineral content.[1]

Tank retting, by contrast, employs vats usually made of concrete, requires about four to six days, and is feasible in any season. In the first six to eight hours, called the leaching period, much of the dirt and colouring matter is removed by the water, which is usually changed to assure clean fibre. Waste retting water, which requires treatment to reduce harmful toxic elements before its release, is rich in chemicals and can be used as liquid fertilizer.[1]
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How do they ensure the toxic elements are not hazardous when doing natural water retting?
 

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Pattahabi said:
If you go to page 11 it starts on some of the problems of the industry where this is quoted from.

Thanks to MikeH for posting this.
P-

Edit: I am unfamiliar with the coco coir production process. This article says coir is either separated mechanically, or is done by retting. I thought DonTesla said people did this by hand? I found this on retting:



How do they ensure the toxic elements are not hazardous when doing natural water retting?
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P, I think you're completely disregarding a couple obvious points in your quest to discredit coco coir. 1) coco coir is a bi-product of an already existing industry. Instead of wasting the husks, they are turned in to a soiless medium. Peat bogs on the other hand are expressly mined (around here) for the purposes of making Sphagum peat moss. 2) the shortcomings of the coconut industry can mostly be addressed, and improved upon. Unfortunately places that coconuts are native to are often 3'rd world countries and their approach to environmental issues are shoddy across the board, not just in the coconut industry. Strip mining peat bogs is a pig you can't put makeup on however. These ecosystems that took thousands of years to form are mined, and the sequestered carbon is released in to the atmosphere. No getting around it.
 
I can assume you will be giving up the coconut water that you currently use on your plants (and recommend others to use)?

Supporting such a dirty industry isn't very organic. :-)
 
st0wandgrow said:
P, I think you're completely disregarding a couple obvious points in your quest to discredit coco coir. 1) coco coir is a bi-product of an already existing industry. Instead of wasting the husks, they are turned in to a soiless medium. Peat bogs on the other hand are expressly mined (around here) for the purposes of making Sphagum peat moss. 2) the shortcomings of the coconut industry can mostly be addressed, and improved upon. Unfortunately places that coconuts are native to are often 3'rd world countries and their approach to environmental issues are shoddy across the board, not just in the coconut industry. Strip mining peat bogs is a pig you can't put makeup on however. These ecosystems that took thousands of years to form are mined, and the sequestered carbon is released in to the atmosphere. No getting around it.
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So I suppose you use all blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, cotton seed meal in your mixes since they're already biproducts? You crush your own insects for chitin, or do you ship crab? Still buying ahimsa neem? YO MON get sustainable! I’m sure those 2 compressed bales of peat that went into my mix that I’ll be using for the next umpteen years just depleted the bogs!

Maybe they’re using a little more though?
Thus peat appears to be an effective and inexpensive method for removing Cd from pH and carbonate adjusted industrial wastewaters free of strong chelating agents.
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http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...64&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104244694567

Right on, if sustainability is your priority, I applaud you. I'm sure I will see sustainability as the top concern for each amendment and process you incorporate into your growing. I will anxiously await your closed loop mmj system!

st0wandgrow said:
I can assume you will be giving up the coconut water that you currently use on your plants (and recommend others to use)?

Supporting such a dirty industry isn't very organic. 
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No, I’ll use my USDA certified organic coconut water powder, ahimsa neem, etc. I’m not the one on my sustainability pulpit.

P-
 
Pattahabi said:
So I suppose you use all blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, cotton seed meal in your mixes since they're already biproducts? You crush your own insects for chitin, or do you ship crab? Still buying ahimsa neem? YO MON get sustainable! I’m sure those 2 compressed bales of peat that went into my mix that I’ll be using for the next umpteen years just depleted the bogs!

Maybe they’re using a little more though?

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...64&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104244694567

Right on, if sustainability is your priority, I applaud you. I'm sure I will see sustainability as the top concern for each amendment and process you incorporate into your growing. I will anxiously await your closed loop mmj system!


No, I’ll use my USDA certified organic coconut water powder, ahimsa neem, etc. I’m not the one on my sustainability pulpit.

P-
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I'm not on a "sustainability pulpit" either, but it is a consideration for me. Not so for you?

I don't understand why you're getting so upset over this. Do you own stock in peat moss or something?? I'm running a side x side to see how coco stacks up against peat. I will do the same for RePeat and leaf mold. Environmental issues are indeed an important part of this for me, but I'm not going to use something that is completely inferior. Maybe at the end of this SPM will be head and shoulders better than the other options and I will continue to use it. I'm going to weigh the pro's and con's and do what's best for me.

Either way, I'm kinda done with this back and forth with you. I feel like I'm back on the LOS forum arguing with Arlo.
 
st0wandgrow said:
I'm not on a "sustainability pulpit" either, but it is a consideration for me. Not so for you?

I don't understand why you're getting so upset over this. Do you own stock in peat moss or something?? I'm running a side x side to see how coco stacks up against peat. I will do the same for RePeat and leaf mold. Environmental issues are indeed an important part of this for me, but I'm not going to use something that is completely inferior. Maybe at the end of this SPM will be head and shoulders better than the other options and I will continue to use it. I'm going to weigh the pro's and con's and do what's best for me.

Either way, I'm kinda done with this back and forth with you. I feel like I'm back on the LOS forum arguing with Arlo.
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Sounds like your on a pulpit to me, especially after Coot, MM and Tad all said SPM was a better medium. Good luck with your experiments.

RE: Coir in general

Salinity is the biggest issue and with the crap sold through hydroponic garden centers (another great oxymoron) knowing much about where a specific product came from is pretty much impossible - as usual with these clowns.

RE: Sri Lanka

The oldest nursery in Oregon (Teufel Nursery) set up a soil mixing operation over 30 years ago to their nursery's needs. They produce over 2 million plants each year and at that level if you're not mixing your own potting soil you have to be running on 'funny money' - to that end Teufel like any other processor expanded to co-packing for other companies - Down-To-Earth and others.

When the coir deal rolled through the nursery industry here in the early 80's Teufel set-up a brokerage to import both brown and white coir materials. This is not compressed like the gunk & junk usually promoted on weed boards. Even with sourcing premium coir it was clear that for production it was not an even exchange.

Having said that there are commercial potting soil bases from Sun Gro Horticulture (Sunshine Mixes, Black Gold [another oxymoron]) and the one that comes to mind is their Sunshine Organic Growers Mix and they have a seedling version as well. Unlike the Sunshine bales these two products these are a loose-pack.

Here are the ratios for these mixes:

40% CSPM
30% Coir
10% each: pumice, perlite and vermiculite

Yucca root powder is used as the wetting agent which is called 'surfactant' if used above the soil - cute stuff indeed! I used this base for almost 4 years and it was okay. The easy-to-use factor was high on the list for me. Fair enough.

Then Tim & I began discussing using raw, straight CSPM as he had tested a product from Premier Horticulture (Pro-Mixes, et al.) and because of logistical realities at that time it was not possible to source this product. What I did have available was Alaska Peat (that's a brand name and nothing to do with where its harvested. Tim was kind enough to run some tests on the Alaska Peat and while it is more work preparing raw CSPM the microbial activity made it an easy decision.

About a year later I was at the annual FarWest Show in Portland which is one of 3 major horticulture trade shows with the other two in Tokyo and Frankfurt, Germany. At the show I stopped to talk with the reps from Alaska Peat and I knew that their harvest allotment (CSPMA) was in Northern Alberta Province. Several months prior to that Premier Horticulture bought a small producer whose allotment was in the same district. That's how it works - there's only a handful of companies allowed to harvest this material so if you want to expand your supply your only option is to buy a company or purchase bulk material from a larger producer and in this case that would be Sun Gro Horticulture.

Sun Gro is larger than all of their competitors combined and their total allotment is around 54% of the total amount harvested each year. A big reason for Premier to establish a site in Alberta is that between California & Oregon you're looking at 65% of the total production of nursery stock in the USA. Premier is based in Eastern Canada and shipping peat moss 3700 miles isn't in the cards but by having an allotment in Alberta would put them in a better market position against Sun Gro in the western states.

The first companies promoting coir hit the nursery industry hard & fast and fortunately this is a very conservative industry - change comes slow and until proven the products languish so it was off to the retail market and that's an easier market to penetrate and so they did with impunity.

The one thing that has remained consistent is that the same arguments used over 30 years ago are still passed around as facts. Pretty sad actually as in "This is the best you can come up with? Seriously?"

If a person wanted to pretend that they're growing in 'soil' but are still stuck on bottled nutes then coir is the perfect product to use. If you're striving to create a soil that is alive and uses humus then it's pretty much an open & shut argument - CSPM

HTH

CC
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But as you said, Coot and MM are just pro Peat. Obviously your knowledge far exceeds theirs.

P-
 
Pattahabi said:
Sounds like your on a pulpit to me, especially after Coot, MM and Tad all said SPM was a better medium. Good luck with your experiments.



But as you said, Coot and MM are just pro Peat. Obviously your knowledge far exceeds theirs.

P-
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So much butt-hurt.

Where did I say my knowledge far exceeds theirs? I didn't. I respect their opinions, however I don't have a man-crush on them and I don't hang on their every word. I like to get my hands dirty and try stuff for myself. If it turns out that peat is the best option, I will openly state that and continue to use it.

The last word is yours arlo
 
st0wandgrow said:
So much butt-hurt.

Where did I say my knowledge far exceeds theirs? I didn't. I respect their opinions, however I don't have a man-crush on them and I don't hang on their every word. I like to get my hands dirty and try stuff for myself. If it turns out that peat is the best option, I will openly state that and continue to use it.

The last word is yours arlo
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Oh no, you said above you were done having this conversation, but yet you keep posting lmao - who's butt hurt?

@AllDayToker I'm confused to your opinion? Are you using coco or peat moss, combination? And what are your thoughts/experiences?

P-
 
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Peat...coco...blah...blah...blah. Its only half your base at most either way. If you recycle your soil mix(everyone should) i think sustainability becomes even less of a factor, either way. What really matters is quality inputs and a fresh source of diverse humus/compost/vermi-compost. Lets talk about something else now. What are the benefits of fish-derived meals(fish bone meal, fish meal?) as opposed to non?
 
DonPetro said:
Peat...coco...blah...blah...blah. Its only half your base at most either way. If you recycle your soil mix(everyone should) i think sustainability becomes even less of a factor, either way. What really matters is quality inputs and a fresh source of diverse humus/compost/vermi-compost. Lets talk about something else now. What are the benefits of fish-derived meals(fish bone meal, fish meal?) as opposed to non?
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Agreed, thank you DP.

I always like to know what is going in my soil. Sometimes 'organic' ingredients really don't sound too appealing when I take a closer look. Fish meal sounds like a pretty distgusting product to me. Here's a few quick articles and quotes to get the ball rolling:

https://encrypted.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=K7pt5N0RLGEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA311&dq=fish meal production&ots=vFE_NQv18O&sig=2xhXKTcGR4YMD7J0P088T5bE5cc#v=onepage&q=fish meal production&f=false

I keep a lot of information in my personal databse, so I often use quotes from people I consider far more knowledgeable then myself (Coot, Microbeman, Gas, etc). Take it for what it's worth. Anyone can be wrong about something.

Here’s is how fish is processed after the fillets are removed……

The fish carcasses are ground to a slurry and loaded into stainless steel tanks where enough water is added that allows the bone powder to float to the top where it is skimmed off, cleaned and screened = fish bone meal (Phosphorus)

Back at the tank, the remaining flesh slurry is dried, screened and bagged – fish meal (Nitrogen)

HTH

CC
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I do use a little fish bone meal in my soil, but I feel there are other good alternatives if you want to source something more local to you.

RanchoDeluxe

When the factory is setting up to make either fish hydrolysate or fish emulsion the first few steps are identical.

The fish carcasses are ground to a slurry and water is added and this mix is agitated for several hours and then allowed to sit. The bones float to the top and is skimmed off, washed, ground to a consistent size, dried and bagged – fish bone meal.

It’s in the later processing (hydrolysate or emulsion which it cooked a high temperatures) where the differences come in. Since Phosphoric acid is used with fish hydro to stop the fermenting there isn’t a need for fungicides, antioxidants, etc. – it’s the fish emulsion (like Monsanto’s ‘Alaska Brand’) that you want to avoid.

Some organic purists pass on both versions of ‘liquid fish’ – YMMV.

CC
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I'm curious what people use outside to kill thrips. They're attacking my damn tomato plants. I've always heard not to spray spinosad outside because of it's effect on beneficials, especially bees. Then I came across this.

Semi-field studies with bumble bees have also been conducted. Spinosad was applied when bees were not flying. Bees were allowed to forage on the treated plants when spray deposits had dried. The findings from these studies indicated that, when used in this way, spinosad was completely safe to foraging worker bees. On inspection of the hives, it was seen that no significantly adverse effects on queen or brood had occurred. It can be concluded that spinosad is highly selective to beneficials and pollinators making it an ideal insect control product for use within glasshouse IPM programmes.
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Full Text

I'd be curious if anyones has any thoughts on either outdoor thrips remedies, or discussion about using spinosad outside!

Many thanks!
P-
 
Neem oil/agsil 16h/dish soap combo gets glowing reviews online........but thrips are a pita..

Hanging reflective(CD's) material around your plants also seems to piss off flying insects........never tried this though

If spinosad doesn't effect beneficial insects.....I see no problems with it

Good luck with your tomatoes.....lots of egg shells grower :-)
 
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