Is this just from low pH? (coco) (pics)

[keysareme]

Thanks for the replies.

Keysareme, I respect and understand what your saying, but I'm asking for help for my plants that are already established in coco medium, halfway into flower. Your post, while informative, pretty much tells me I need to make my own soil and grow organically. Maybe I will try that in the future, but it does nothing for my problem now. Thank you though.

Squidbilly, I actually emailed Plant Success about that...I used to have an issue with the "slime" (cyanobacteria) when I was in hydro, which is why I switched to coco. I was using Orca (pretty much liquid version of Great White) when I started coco a few months ago, and asked them if I could apply it more than every 2-3 weeks recommended. My theory was that I think that recommendation is for mainly soil growers, and also hydro growers that have recirculating systems. Since I do Coco drain to waste with 20% runoff each day, I was concerned that I would be washing out all the beneficial bacteria from the initial inoculation. Another reason they only recommend every so often is because it would be a waste of the mycos in it since the spores will germinate and colonize the medium from the first inoculation, but I was more interested and worried about keeping a good level of the beneficial bacteria in my medium. When I explained this to them in the Email, they agreed with me that the bennies would be flushed out in the first two or three waterings without the Orca (or GW), and that I would be OK using the Orca/GW every other day. That of course doesn't mean it isn't my issue!

Uncle Ben, thanks for the informative reply. I was wondering where all the other nutrients were also, once I read the label I was like "where the hell is all the rest??" My only issue with this theory of CNS being incomplete, is that my first two complete cycles (the last two) were perfectly fine using CNS17...the only issue I saw was some minor Ca- and Mg- in the first two weeks of flowering, which I think is kind of normal for coco if you don't know to supplement both in the first few weeks. All plants are the same Pheno from the same mother. What issues do you see with my two "not-so-good" ones? I agree that the nutrients seem incomplete but that doesn't explain why they worked fine for the first two cycles, from clone to harvest using the CNS Grow/Bloom/Ripe.

My coco is the compressed brick Botanicare CoCoGro....hydrated with RO water + 0.4EC calmag+, pH'ed to 5.8. I usually will rinse it 3:1 (3 gallons of hydrating solution per gallon coco) once I plant them, and by the time the last gallon comes out the EC is 0.45, telling me I hypothetically only have an extra 25ppm of most likely sodium left in it.

Here is the MSDS ingredient list, it appears those are in there, just not on the label

1.CSN17 Bloom
INGREDIENTS:
Calcium Nitrate
Mono-Potassium Phosphate
Potassium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulphate,
Iron EDTA (Fe)
Manganese Sulfate
Boric Acid
Zinc Sulfate (Zn)
Copper Sulfate (Cu)
Amonium Molybdate
Nickle Sulfate
Cobalt Sulfate
Potassium Iodide,
Potassium Dichromate
Sodium Selenate
Acozine Blue or Rubinol red.

I used the elemental symbol on the ones you listed as being missing, at least I think those are correct. So, it seems maybe the CNS is more complete than we thought, are we back to the low pH being my issue?

Anyways, I did another 3 gallon per plant flush last night, and the runoff was 5.6-5.7pH...getting there. Slurry test 2 hours after watering was 5.6, so hopefully they will start getting better.

Thanks A LOT for the replies guys.

Yea man, you just had to rinse you coco (strip it) and start with a fresh clean medium again. Sounds good nice work man.

 

[Uncle Ben]

I love how arrogant some of you are. It's as if you think your some superior human being cause you've grown cannabis for awhile.

No, it's because I have the equivalent of a Master's degree in horticulture, am a certified Master Gardener with the State of Texas and have personal and commercial experience for close to 50 years both organic and synthetic. Have you spent 3 years and thousands of dollars putting in crops of legumes and green manure crops on your own farm land? I have, so don't go preaching some boring organic holier-than-thou mantra.

I'm coming from a spiritul place of connection with the plants, soil and ecosystem existing within it.

Well kumbaya, a cup of green tea with ginseng and the rest of it that goes with your religious fervor.

Hope that helps,
UB

 

[TexasHank]

Using the nutrient profile calculator, using the Dyna Gro and CalMag would give me almost the same profile as I am running now so I'm not sure if it would make a difference, what I have seems to be an acute lockout of something.

.

I am not familiar with CSN17 bloom.. The reason why I said that using that combination of ferts would most likely stop the yellowing is that I use that combo and do not have those problems..

I'll have to go back and read your post more..

 

[TexasHank]

Yeah.. perhaps you could top dress with some garden lime?

I would DEFINITELY research that before doing it.. I never have, but.. if low ph is your issue then perhaps some lime would help..

What caused your ph to go so low?

I am using H&G coco AND adding 8 cups of peat moss to every 3 gallon pot.. That is putting my ph in the perfect spot and holding it there..

What brand? Did you amend?

 

[TexasHank]

I love how arrogant some of you are. It's as if you think your some superior human being cause you've grown cannabis for awhile.

The fact that you say it's just a feeling shows me how closed off to True organic growing you are.

I encourage you to run a side by side and show me the results.

Just because your uncle Ben doesn't meant your some Special all knowing of the true way of existence being.

The OP even agrees that he might be interested to make his own organic super living soil from here out. Did you not read that?

And you continue to tell him that beneficial fungi like great white will have no purpose in potting soils? Man. Where and for what reason would you want to tell someone that? It is a beneficial fungi that will help with root development.

I think I know more than most of you want to acknowledge. I'm coming from a spiritul place of connection with the plants, soil and ecosystem existing within it. You want to grow good plants, go ahead and stick to your bottled nutrients and make your plants dependent, just like the government wants all humans to be, or grow organically and grow plants to their maximum potential and allow your soil to be alive and provide all the organically occurring nourishment, that already exists in the soil, to be made a available and accessible by the roots and plant. It is a simple reality call life.

Don't try and write of the truth because it's now how you choose to do your growing, and don't tell someone that something is worthless, all life has value bro.

Oh yea, and it's not about putting something in your water to give to your plants, where did you get that I am saying that about the 90 minerals. Your supposed to mix and amend it all into your soil bro. Get with it, look at the rainforest or redwood Forrest. That's what I am talking about, that's how I grow.

Just because you've been doing it a certain way for awhile doesn't meant your way is the best, again look at the rainforest and redwood Forrest, for longer than you and I have been in these bodies, the environment has been successfully sustaining life.

Yeah.. UB can be a little blunt sometimes.. As far as horticulture knowledge goes though.. there are not many on this site that know more..

Thing is.. I can second that about the Great White... Just from my experience.. Plant Success Powder and Great White.. neither did a damn thing for me...


I have been told that if you want Great White to work you have to apply it DIRECTLY to the roots.. watering in will do nothing... so, you would dust the rootball when upcanning..

It's funny I find myself in this conversation as I just decided to try out Plant Success powder again.. THIS TIME I amended the coco with some dry molasses.. I have low expectations.. but.. I get bored.. gotta try something new..
Someone suggested the idea that I saw no results due to not "feeding the micro herd".. so, I am trying dry molasses.. 1 cup mixed in to 3 gal of coco..

 

[keysareme]

No, it's because I have the equivalent of a Master's degree in horticulture, am a certified Master Gardener with the State of Texas and have personal and commercial experience for close to 50 years both organic and synthetic. Have you spent 3 years and thousands of dollars putting in crops of legumes and green manure crops on your own farm land? I have, so don't go preaching some boring organic holier-than-thou mantra.



Well kumbaya, a cup of green tea with ginseng and the rest of it that goes with your religious fervor.

Hope that helps,
UB

I am not preaching anything nor putting anyone down, you were the person to throw in the word "wrong" which is a thought up human concept that has been programmed into the human brain to limit our experience on this planet. A degree is just another thought up human concept, with the aim of trying to establish some separation and say that one person is better or smarter or more wise than another, because they have a degree man. All of this wisdom is universal, and exists within the depths of our hearts and soul. It's nothing new, and all nutrients are a hoax, a scam, and a joke, just another way to trick people into perceiving life a certain way, and not seeing the truth. Just another way to keep people from seeing their own potential, and seeing that everything we want and need exists abundantly, all we have to do is open our hearts to it and summon the wisdom from the depths of our life and work in rhythm and harmony with nature, the way the forrest's do.

Ok, so right there you may consider some of that preaching, I consider it truth that needs to be spoken because we have gotten so far away from what is true in this time of our existence, that we need to speak up against all the erroneous beliefs that people are just willing to accept because its easier to be comfortable than it is to do the work yourself and gain the wisdom and experience and get yourself away from being dependent upon some bottle of "nutrients" or what another person is doing.

I like how you automatically connect my spirituality with religion, that shows me where you are coming from. I respect that, but I also say your view on my existence is skewed. Life is eternal, and we have all been here before, and even in this very body, we just need to cast of the transient and revel the true eternal nature of our lives, wake up to the fact that this is our opportunity to make a transformation on this planet, and stop being the victim or dependent upon other people for what is readily available to us.

Just because you have been working at this for 50 years, does not mean that you know it all, and that you have reached the highest point of wisdom. We do benefit from all that you input and share, and we will continue to do so, I acknowledge this, but your not the only one, we are nearly 10 billion of us now on this planet, and there are ways, much more efficient, furthur advanced, and more in rhythm with organic life, to in which we can improve the ways we live, so what we need to do as human beings is welcome these changes, welcome in this wisdom that is available to us, and stop holding on the past ways that may work, may have worked, or may still work, and be open to how we can improve what we do from here. Life is always encouraging us to expand and get better..

Ok, now, if anything is preaching, that, right there is. Hope you enjoyed it.

 

[keysareme]

Yeah.. UB can be a little blunt sometimes.. As far as horticulture knowledge goes though.. there are not many on this site that know more..

Thing is.. I can second that about the Great White... Just from my experience.. Plant Success Powder and Great White.. neither did a damn thing for me...


I have been told that if you want Great White to work you have to apply it DIRECTLY to the roots.. watering in will do nothing... so, you would dust the rootball when upcanning..

It's funny I find myself in this conversation as I just decided to try out Plant Success powder again.. THIS TIME I amended the coco with some dry molasses.. I have low expectations.. but.. I get bored.. gotta try something new..

Yes, that's the whole point, you amend your medium with the beneficial fungi Myccorhiza. That's the whole point of it. Try putting a large amount of it right around the root zone when you transplant. When I veg out a plant, whether it be a medical cannabis or organic fruit/vegetable plant, I am always putting the seed either right into the soil, or the seed has been germinated in a rockwool cube or root riot cube. The soil always has a huge pocket of myccorihza that either the seed sits in or the rockwool/root riot goes right into.

Don't ever try and tell me that myccorhiza does not work. That is is the biggest discouraging falsity you could convey, and you could very well steer an up and coming grower away from a highly beneficial component to our gardens.

 

[TexasHank]

Yes, that's the whole point, you amend your medium with the beneficial fungi Myccorhiza. That's the whole point of it. Try putting a large amount of it right around the root zone when you transplant. When I veg out a plant, whether it be a medical cannabis or organic fruit/vegetable plant, I am always putting the seed either right into the soil, or the seed has been germinated in a rockwool cube or root riot cube. The soil always has a huge pocket of myccorihza that either the seed sits in or the rockwool/root riot goes right into.

Don't ever try and tell me that myccorhiza does not work. That is is the biggest discouraging falsity you could convey, and you could very well steer an up and coming grower away from a highly beneficial component to our gardens.

Well. I'm a big boy.. I can tell you whatever I want to. But, I did not say that mycorrhizae "does not work".. that is beyond an over simplified statement..

Yes, I did "put a lot of it around the rootzone when transplanting", as I said when I said that I dusted the rootball when I up canned...
I am not new to the product, hydro, soil, mj growing or gardening..

This is what I can tell you..
Growing MJ, in Coco, with my style, nutes, etc.. Using Plant Success AND Great White by dusting the rootball when upcanning/sending to flower and watering in solution biweekly did not show any noticeable improved results over not using these products.

I dusted a 1 qt rootball with one teaspoon of the powder.. also i dusted the coco layer just before sitting the rootball in place.. THEN, I would make the solution (per label) and water it in about 3-4 times over the 9 wks of flower.

It's not like it is some crazy statement that is completely opposite of what everyone else is saying around here.. I've heard plenty of people say the same thing. No noticeable improvements were seen..

I'm sure these products have the potential to show results to some kind of plants in some situation.. but.. in my garden, no dice..

It reminds me of something I see at work often..
A small part of my job includes building pond, aquaponic systems, pond filters, and hybrids of the 3..

There is a popular kind of pond filter called the "Skippy Filter".. it is a bio filter, for the most part.. it works in a similar way that aquaponic systems work..
So when I build a customer a Skippy Filter, I offer to sell them a jar of "Bacteria".. it is essentially a jar of pond water.. condensed, i assume..

So, I'll sell this bottle to anyone who wants to buy it.. with 30% markup I'll sell a candy bar with the pond if a customer wants it.. but if they ASK me what I think... I tell them this..

The bacteria that they are selling you is readily available in the air and will become established in your pond with or without this jar for 30$... furthermore.. the company selling this product is in Michigan.. we are in Texas.. there are different bacteria, regionally, that will survive in the pond. I wouldn't personally use the prproduct even if it WAS sold/made by a Texas company.. but, the fact that it is from Michigan means you will get many bacteria that will not even survive/be of use/etc in a different region.

 

[keysareme]

Well. I'm a big boy.. I can tell you whatever I want to. But, I did not say that myccorhiza "does not work".. that is beyond an over simplified statement..

This is what I can tell you..
Growing MJ, in Coco, with my style, nutes, etc.. Using Plant Success AND Great White by dusting the rootball when upcanning/sending to flower and watering in solution biweekly did not show any noticeable improved results over not using these products.

I dusted a 1 qt rootball with one teaspoon of the powder.. also i dusted the coco layer just before sitting the rootball in place.. THEN, I would make the solution (per label) and water it in about 3-4 times over the 9 wks of flower.

It's not like it is some crazy statement that is completely opposite of what everyone else is saying around here.. I've heard plenty of people say the same thing. No noticeable improvements were seen..

I'm sure these products have the potential to show results to some kind of plants in some situation.. but.. in my garden, no dice..

It reminds me of something I see at work often..
A small part of my job includes building pond, aquaponic systems, pond filters, and hybrids of the 3..

There is a popular kind of pond filter called the "Skippy Filter".. it is a bio filter, for the most part.. it works in a similar way that aquaponic systems work..
So when I build a customer a Skippy Filter, I offer to sell them a jar of "Bacteria".. it is essentially a jar of pond water.. condensed, i assume..

So, I'll sell this bottle to anyone who wants to buy it.. with 30% markup I'll sell a candy bar with the pond if a customer wants it.. but if they ASK me what I think... I tell them this..

The bacteria that they are selling you is readily available in the air and will become established in your pond with or without this jar for 30$... furthermore.. the company selling this product is in Michigan.. we are in Texas.. there are different bacteria, regionally, that will survive in the pond. I wouldn't personally use the prproduct even if it WAS sold/made by a Texas company.. but, the fact that it is from Michigan means you will get many bacteria that will not even survive/be of use/etc in a different region.

Use Extreme Gardening Brand of Mykos. I've never used great white, nor will I ever, I have no need, Extreme Gardening Mykos works immensely. I've had plants that were veg'd in red cups till their entire space was filled with fibrous webbing out roots, transplanted only to have to transplant to another larger container in less than a week cause I amended the plant with mykos when I put it in the red cup, I amended the whole area of the larger pot, with mykos, where I put the plant and its huge root mass into, and within less than a week roots were exploding out of the sides of that pot, so I had to transplant the 2nd time to a larger container. Roots even exploded out of the sides of that pot. Mykos works.

 

[TexasHank]

Use Extreme Gardening Brand of Mykos. I've never used great white, nor will I ever, I have no need, Extreme Gardening Mykos works immensely. I've had plants that were veg'd in red cups till their entire space was filled with fibrous webbing out roots, transplanted only to have to transplant to another larger container in less than a week cause I amended the plant with mykos when I put it in the red cup, I amended the whole area of the larger pot, with mykos, where I put the plant and its huge root mass into, and within less than a week roots were exploding out of the sides of that pot, so I had to transplant the 2nd time to a larger container. Roots even exploded out of the sides of that pot. Mykos works.

I thought that mycorrhizae is the relationship between a fungus and a root system.. not an actual fungus or bacteria..

Like, it is the association between the two.. or what happens when the two work together..
no?

 

[keysareme]

I thought that mycorrhizae is the relationship between a fungus and a root system.. not an actual fungus or bacteria..

Like, it is the association between the two.. or what happens when the two work together..
no?

Yea, all life is connected. It is the symbiotic relationship of fungi and root mass. The fungi colonizes and hosts plants roots.

Mykos is the powder form used to amend in soils and directly onto roots/masses,

 

[TexasHank]

Your results with the product you speak of would make a great side by side experiment.. You should do it..
A plant blowing up a red cup after getting a mykos product is one thing.. a plant right next to it, miles behind, without mykos.. That would convince people.. which seems to be something you are interested in..

Do it up, man. Post a link to it in this thread..

 

[TexasHank]

Yea, all life is connected. It is the symbiotic relationship of fungi and root mass. The fungi colonizes and hosts plants roots.

Mykos is the powder form used to amend in soils and directly onto roots/masses,

I got you .. "Mykos" is a product..

 

[keysareme]

I got you .. "Mykos" is a product..

Yes, for sure bro.

 

[TexasHank]

Yes, for sure bro.

The way you referred to Mycorrhizae in this post made me think either you did not know OR you knew something I did not..

Yes, that's the whole point, you amend your medium with the beneficial fungi Myccorhiza. That's the whole point of it....

I would much prefer being corrected by someone than correcting someone.. who comes out ahead or with more in those situations? The person corrected..


Please. do the side by side.. post a link here.. could be a great piece.. very useful to all..

 

[keysareme]

The way you referred to Mycorrhizae in this post made me think either you did not know OR you knew something I did not..


I would much prefer being corrected by someone than correcting someone.. who comes out ahead or with more in those situations? The person corrected..


Please. do the side by side.. post a link here.. could be a great piece.. very useful for all..

I will for sure do a side by side with the current seeds I have sprouting, albeit they are just bag seeds and possibly not the best to run a side by side with, but I will still make sure to make a thread about it.

As for plants that I have currently growing, I can share some pictures of tomato plants that I amended with mykos, and tomato plants that I did not amend with mykos. Again, albeit each plant is unique, and will grow to its own, but it could still at least be an idea, and representation of the benefit of adding mykos powder to your medium, and using it to help root development.

Yea it helps when I am being accurate in conveying what I am intending to, using the proper words to get my idea out and to have be it appropriately taken and understood in the way I had intended for it to be. I am working on this.

 

[TexasHank]

I will for sure do a side by side with the current seeds I have sprouting, albeit they are just bag seeds and possibly not the best to run a side by side with, but I will still make sure to make a thread about it.

As for plants that I have currently growing, I can share some pictures of tomato plants that I amended with mykos, and tomato plants that I did not amend with mykos. Again, albeit each plant is unique, and will grow to its own, but it could still at least be an idea, and representation of the benefit of adding mykos powder to your medium, and using it to help root development.

Yea it helps when I am being accurate in conveying what I am intending to, using the proper words to get my idea out and to have be it appropriately taken and understood in the way I had intended for it to be. I am working on this.

Yeah and me both, man.. I'm fucking terrible with Engrish.. some days I try, some days I just talk like a caveman..

If you remember, PM me with the link to your thread. I don't come on RIU like I used to, but, I would like to check out that thread if you get it going.

If you are not using clones I would suggest trying to use at least 2 plants with and 2 plants without.. the more the better.. ya know..

 

[keysareme]

No, it's because I have the equivalent of a Master's degree in horticulture, am a certified Master Gardener with the State of Texas and have personal and commercial experience for close to 50 years both organic and synthetic. Have you spent 3 years and thousands of dollars putting in crops of legumes and green manure crops on your own farm land? I have, so don't go preaching some boring organic holier-than-thou mantra.



Well kumbaya, a cup of green tea with ginseng and the rest of it that goes with your religious fervor.

Hope that helps,
UB

No I have not spent three years and thousands of dollars on my land, I have spent 7 months and 500 dollars to transform my back porch to a living self sustaining ecosystem bro. Owning a farm is my dream, and I am manifesting the reality of it. I am 25, I started this now, so I don't have 50 years of life (in this body) to of had experiences with yet, I have 25 years of life (in this body), and I became conscious of my eternal existence when I was 14. So for 11 years I have been working to transform this planet and my environment wherever I go, so I may not own my own farm, yet, and may not have invested thousands of dollars or have the equivalent of 50 years or master gardener certificate from the state where I currently exist, but what I do have is a kind heart and conscious soul, and the desire to actively transform my environment to illuminate the organic self sustainable ecosystem that exists within it, all around us, and help to establish that as the prominent source of life in any environment I find myself in.


And no, it did not help, as a wise elder, your mission is to help and encourage us youth to far surpass anything you have ever done. It's your job to be a supportive role to encourage the future generations to be as excited and care as much about the/their land as you do. Sharing your accomplishments is great, and sharing your wisdom is even better, that's where the most value can be cultivated. Encouraging other people to challenge themselves and grow as a human being, in a supportive way. There is a way to let someone know something directly in a way that shows you care about them and their well being and the overall outcome.

 

[TexasHank]

I know Coco kind of "sets" it's pH after awhile and will always try and buffer back to that.... Well how do I RE-set it? I'm thinking my constant watering at 5.5 must have "set" it there and then something happened to make it drop and since it was already at the lowest end of acceptable, now I'm messed up.

I'm going to try flushing again tonight with another 30 gallons at 6.5 pH and see what happens.

Thanks for the replies again.

Op,
Did you read this somewhere or did you experience this? I'm very interested in learning more about this idea of how coco "sets" itself.. you know of somewhere I can read on that? Or, anything you can tell me about that?

Is the PH problem still bugging you?

 

[Uncle Ben]

Yes, that's the whole point, you amend your medium with the beneficial fungi Myccorhiza. That's the whole point of it. Try putting a large amount of it right around the root zone when you transplant.

I discussed this with a friend of mine who is a pioneer in a certain part of the ag industry in Texas. We're talking about an older man in his late 70's that's been around. He did a 3 year personal study regarding the benefits of applied myco fungial to potted plant material and noticed there was no difference regarding health and vigor between the control group and the treated group. Said he was reading some ag journal one day and found out why - it has little to no effect under potted conditions. Don't know why, I should have asked about the science. Myco is mainly beneficial in native soils, farm type soils such that the colony has been disrupted or destroyed because of mechanical or chemical means. Having said that when I plant in the field my material gets a drench of MycoApply Soluble Maxx.Why? Because I first fracture down a row using a 3 pt. hitch subsoiler/chisel on the back of my tractor....and....it makes me feel good.

The sole issue, benefit, of externally applying mycorrhizal fungus is to aid in P assimiliation:

To have beneficial associations between the fungus and plant roots, a low but sufficient level of P in the soil or rooting medium is needed. If the soil P level is extremely low, the fungus can be parasitic (harmful to the plant) rather than beneficial, because it will compete with the plant for available P. When soil P is high (above “sufficient”), the plant can obtain enough P without the fungus, and the association will not be formed.
http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SCM-5.pdf

I recommend you call one of the staff mentioned in the above study, discuss this with them, and get a recommendation on a brand they know is the real deal and not some snake oil.

Now, we understand the science behind this association, right, but I'll translate - if you have sufficient P in your soil that is in a readily available form, say, DAP or MAP, then you just pissed off your money on mycos for organic potting soils.

EDIT - after researching this potted versus native, it confirms that the value is when plants go from a nursery into the ground that they may benefit from innoculation. Depends...
http://www.uaf.edu/files/ces/publications-db/catalog/anr/HGA-00026.pdf

UB