Should more attention be paid to quality drivers?

stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
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Advantages and disadvantages

The main advantage of the switching power supply is greater efficiency because the switching transistor dissipates little power when acting as a switch. Other advantages include smaller size and lighter weight from the elimination of heavy line-frequency transformers, and lower heat generation due to higher efficiency. Disadvantages include greater complexity, the generation of high-amplitude, high-frequency energy that the low-pass filter must block to avoid electromagnetic interference (EMI), a ripple voltage at the switching frequency and the harmonic frequencies thereof.

Very low cost SMPSs may couple electrical switching noise back onto the mains power line, causing interference with A/V equipment connected to the same phase. Non-power-factor-corrected SMPSs also cause harmonic distortion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
..And that ,I guess ,explains my latest 'EMI obsession '...
From the moment I was told that thing I can't sleep...:P

I mean ....

From now on ,all my DIY led designs will be incorporating EMI filtered AC sockets,
HPF / EMI certified CC or CV switching psu's ..
Even my custom Switching voltage regulators have EMI LC filters ...

Maybe I'm overreacting ..
You never know ...

Except electricity providers ,others might 'notify ' for EMI also...
Cable/Sat TV providers,Radio/TV stations,RF amateurs /enthousiasts,all-day-TV-watching neighbours ,audio -hi-end freaks (also neighbours ) ,etc

Maybe it's just an obsession and nothing more than that ...
But...
Better safe than sorry ...
 
MrFlux

MrFlux

Well-Known Member
If there is radio spectrum pollution there is a chance that it will be investigated, especially if it's in the aircraft band or if ppl complain about it. The cheapo drivers I have interfer like mad on FM radio. Even a battery operated radio, so with no AC coupling. I'm sure that with a directional antenna this can be picked up and traced from miles away. Likely these cheapos are not even allowed on the European market. What the Ebay sellers do is to put fake CE stickers everywhere just to get it through customs.

I noticed that the cheapos from Supra have an induction coil near the output so perhaps those are better behaving.
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
MrFlux said:
If there is radio spectrum pollution there is a chance that it will be investigated, especially if it's in the aircraft band or if ppl complain about it. The cheapo drivers I have interfer like mad on FM radio. Even a battery operated radio, so with no AC coupling. I'm sure that with a directional antenna this can be picked up and traced from miles away. Likely these cheapos are not even allowed on the European market. What the Ebay sellers do is to put fake CE stickers everywhere just to get it through customs.

I noticed that the cheapos from Supra have an induction coil near the output so perhaps those are better behaving.
Click to expand...

Ok ..

Usually the LC output 'ripple' filters are close to the output ,no mattter if an AC/DC or a DC/DC driver...
And they are relatively small in size ...
But it would be wrong to judge by it's physical size ....

As it could be a 'series' of LC filters to cover (filter out ) a wider 'band' of ripple noise ..
And the last could be kinda 'bulky'....

But in case of DC/DC drivers then a kinda sized inductor/coil at the output ,could be actually the switching inductor itself ...

( In AC/DC drivers the swithing is done at the AC side ..There you've plenty of EMI 'kicking back ' in the AC line ...
There the filtering has to be in the AC input ,if any ....)

In case of a DC/DC without filtering at the output ....
Specially if Vo of the drivers if high ....
( And if case is made of aluminium,things will get (way)worse ...)
And if long output wires are used even worse ...
And if you live on top floors ,even worse ..
And ..
And ...
Then except from EMI ..You might have plenty of RFI...
(from couple of KHz only -if you're lucky....Till harmonic distortions that reach the MHz or even the GHz range ..(<=Then you're probably ....F ....ed .... )
(generated from switching DC voltages/ current ....)
Which is WORSE !!!
( for all the reasons you-correctly- mentioned ...You might be 'trespassing' in 'fields' that you shouldn't (by any means ! )

Yes,usually (99%) of the 'certifications' coming from 'non-trusted/no-name/whoknows brands ,are
imaginary ...Just for the 'show' ....
(Normally) Forbidden in EU ...

(Guod,am I right ? You know way better than me ,that's for sure ... )
 
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FranJan

FranJan

Well-Known Member
Is there a material the average stoner can add to their grow room to limit EM interference? Does mylar have any effect on EMI/RF radiation? Any attenuation/interference at all? Can some material be used as a Faraday cage on grow tents or LED rigs? People used to build Faraday mods on computer add-on cards back in the day to limit interference, like when you had a SCSI card next to a sound card and you'd do anything to stop the sound card from making popping and clicking sounds and sometimes the Faraday worked. Just a thought.

And thanks for the help everyone. I was thinking about wire gauge as a suspect for the overheating but it seems it's using 24 AWG, which is spec for Illumitex F3s. No Kill-A-Watt, but I really should get one, especially since I have no idea what my Illumi modded BS240s, (I removed the BS diodes and added 8xF3s at 580mA) are really using. Somewhere between min of 60 to probably 90 watts, tops 100 watts per I'm guess-timating. Anyway I'm weeks away from tearing my veg cab down and modding my Illumitex rig is on the list of things to do during that, so I'm just going to grab a new driver, probably in the 500 to 530 mA range. Decisions, decisions, decisions..... Thanks again peeps.

bongsmilie+:hug:+ a B Safe
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Dear FranJan, post:
Is there a material the average stoner can add to their grow room to limit EM interference? Hmmmm,m.Yes ....I think there is ..Covering the space with grounded alum foil will do plenty ...I think .Guod ,help! Does mylar have any effect on EMI/RF radiation? I think so,I'm not sure if it is amplifying or suppressing ,though ...Any attenuation/interference at all? <=Answered? ..

Can some material be used as a Faraday cage on grow tents or LED rigs?
Yes ! If the building has a steel frame,it is a Faraday cage by itself..(or acts like one )
Covering everything with grounded alum foil ,is way easier than building an actual Faraday Cage to cover the grow space..(except of small grow spaces like cabinets or small tents ...
Then I think that perforated steel angle system ...Shit ,what's the name (stoner..shit)...
You know the one you use to make storage shelves ...Grey in color ,usually ...
That thing ,might become handy I think ....

fOUND IT !

DEXION !
http://www.google.gr/search?q=dexion&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:el:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=wc1qU_yGGKia7Qaz44GYBA&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=893

People used to build Faraday mods on computer add-on cards back in the day to limit interference, like when you had a SCSI card next to a sound card and you'd do anything to stop the sound card from making popping and clicking sounds and sometimes the Faraday worked. Just a thought.

Correct ! Bravo!
:hump:

And thanks for the help everyone. I was thinking about wire gauge as a suspect for the overheating
Nope..Then the wire would have been hot ,or the insulation would have melted ,or the wire itself !

but it seems it's using 24 AWG, which is spec for Illumitex F3s. No Kill-A-Watt, but I really should get one, especially since I have no idea what my Illumi modded BS240s, (I removed the BS diodes and added 8xF3s at 580mA) are really using. Somewhere between min of 60 to probably 90 watts, tops 100 watts per I'm guess-timating. Anyway I'm weeks away from tearing my veg cab down and modding my Illumitex rig is on the list of things to do during that, so I'm just going to grab a new driver, probably in the 500 to 530 mA range. Decisions, decisions, decisions..... Thanks again peeps.

bongsmilie+:hug:+ a B Safe

Cheers,Fran...
Take care,bro..
 
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stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
MrFlux said:
The LC filter on my cheapos is made out of air...
View attachment 3147745
Click to expand...
Mr Flux ...It 'll take you less than 10' to put them back in place !!!

-C10 :
Electrolytic (1.5x Vo max of driver ) 105° 100uF (more expensive option)
or Ceramic 250/600V 100uF (marked with 104 ) (cheaper option)
or
MKT/MKC /MKP (metal film polyester /polycarbonate/polypropylene) (from worst to best choise )
2x Vo max ,100uF (can be cheap or not so cheap )

L4 : 20-22 uH inductor
(way easy to salvage from many old/broken/thrown electronic equipment ,
most common,small sized ,marked ' 20 ' or '22' ,usually epoxied or enclosed/encapsulated )

Google for pics to get some ideas about the looks of the parts ,in case you do not know ...
(I do not know your exact skills in electronics,bro...Please excuse my ignorance )

Ripple output noise will be reduced 10x ....
@~50kHz ...Switching frequency ...-(Covers most /a wide range of cheap switching ICs...)

(For better filtering :
-Check the switching IC marks,on the driver ..
-Find it's datasheet
-Check the exact switching frequency of the IC used ..
-Use an Low pass LC filter calculator to ,find out the values of the two components ..
(Inductor + capacitor )

http://www.siversima.com/rf-calculator/lowpass-filter-designer/
http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/RLClowkeisan.htm
http://circuitcalculator.com/lcfilter.htm
http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fisher/lcfilter/
http://www.flambda.com/filter.html

Cheers .
 
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R

Rooster99

Well-Known Member
Okay , about this EMI thing....

You have got me really paranoid now.......Thanks lol!

I am using these drivers from fastech: https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10004218/1320600-85-265v-50w-high-power-constant-current-led-driver.

I think either Supra or Positivity played with them at some point in the last few months.
Questions:
1) Anyone know if these things would put out a noticeable amount of EMI?
2) I am not 100% up to spec on how EMI works - Is this being emitted from the driver itself, traveling down the power cable, or both?
3) If EMI is being emitted, how do you tell? Any simple methods of finding out?
4) If it is being emitted, how effective would a building a cage be?
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Okay , about this EMI thing....

You have got me really paranoid now.......Thanks lol!

I am using these drivers from fastech: https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10004218/1320600-85-265v-50w-high-power-constant-current-led-driver.

Those drivers ,have dual EMI filtration .
Both at input and Output .
And in some other places also (at the switching inductor ..)
Don't worry ..
filter.JPG
And the first big coil ,over the yellow square 'cap ',belongs to AC input EMI Filtration ...
They are two-different- coils actually ...

The light blue colored discs are RFI filters ,....I think


I think either Supra or Positivity played with them at some point in the last few months.
Questions:
1) Anyone know if these things would put out a noticeable amount of EMI?
No.They don't .
2) I am not 100% up to spec on how EMI works - Is this being emitted from the driver itself, traveling down the power cable, or both?
Both are true.
3) If EMI is being emitted, how do you tell? Any simple methods of finding out?
Transmitted in wiring and circuits. Can be transformed to RFI.The latter is transmitted for long distances
in air ,throught everything ...
4) If it is being emitted, how effective would a building a cage be?
Almost 100%
[/QUOTE]
 
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stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Some extra info,along the road ....

-If you are going to use some cheapo AC/DC led drivers ...

At least make sure that the AC side has Grounding.
Try to stay away from 'floating ground AC/DC " led drivers .
(No grounding wire -Really cheap ones ) .

-These 'floating ground AC/DC " would be almost impossible to completely switch off ,
if a Triac (SSR ) relay is used into powering on / off ,those drivers .Not to be used with Climate control /
Digital Rail Timers / Automation .
(Will keep flickering the leds ,forever ,when power is 'OFF ' !!! ...)

-Also would be almost impossible to completely switch off ,
if a common plug digital timer is used .
(Will keep leds slightly lit ...)

-These 'floating ground AC/DC " might seriously affect the normal operation of
other electronic/electric devices ,pluged at the Same AC phase (line) with them.

-They can pose a serious life- threat ,in case of malfunctioning .
Specially if case is made of metal (i.e aluminium case ) ..
 
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BlackWidowGrow

BlackWidowGrow

Well-Known Member
Hey dad,

I am able to listen to the radio with no interference when it is plugged into the same socket and when I have the radio and antenna right above/below/side of the lights. Is that a sufficient test for RFI?
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
BlackWidowGrow said:
Hey dad,

I am able to listen to the radio with no interference when it is plugged into the same socket and when I have the radio and antenna right above/below/side of the lights. Is that a sufficient test for RFI?
Click to expand...
same socket: Does not matter ..

Is that a sufficient test for RFI?

Depends my son...


Which band are you listening to ...
FM will be pretty much unaffected by RFI...
Check AM band ....
The whole band slowly ....
Switch on and off the lights ,couple of times while listening to AM ....

Well ?

If you can hear something ....
Anything ...

It can be 'heard'(traced) ,from some 10-20 miles away ,son ...
(at that average power of possible unprotected switching supplies ...)


And if somebody 'complains' /gets 'snowed' / spiked /buzzed /noised / covered or just simple notice the 'buzz' and notifies authorities about it ....

Bad news,will be coming right in front of your door ...
Sooner or later ..
(With a search warrant,for possible illegal /unlicenced TV/Radio station,only to discover ...leds !
With some mj plants underneath 'em ...." Big deal "...)

Check it out carefully.
Walk around your house at least at a radius of 300 yards .
Listening to radio ..AM .If there's a 'buzz '/'noise' .
.You'll be hearing harmonics also ...

If you can still hear the buzz of your light(s)
at AM band ,At 300 yards away from your house ....

Run back ,to it ...
And ...
Better to switch 'em off ,until you'll find a way to 'camo' that RFI ..
(Faraday cage-RFI/EMI foil-paint ,etc )

Take care ...
Cheers .
 
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BlackWidowGrow

BlackWidowGrow

Well-Known Member
Well the first test was with a FM, I didn't know it had to be AM. With the AM test I had to go off of static because there isn't any stations around here I guess. Or all the trees right next to my house block the signals, tall conifers. The static with the lights off and the static with the lights on sounded the same. You got me all paranoid like the other guy.
 
stardustsailor

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
BlackWidowGrow said:
Well the first test was with a FM, I didn't know it had to be AM. With the AM test I had to go off of static because there isn't any stations around here I guess. Or all the trees right next to my house block the signals, tall conifers. The static with the lights off and the static with the lights on sounded the same. You got me all paranoid like the other guy.
Click to expand...

Through all the bandwidth of AM ?
It does not matter if static or no ....
If there's radio frequency intereference you can hear it ...
But you will 've to go through(search for it ,if there ) all the AM range ...
You'll understand it ,at once ....
No matter if before ,radio broadcasted a station or just 'noise' ..

If so (nothing there ...) ,then you're ok from RFI .
That's a pretty good sign / thing .

You 've to be more than paranoid with your safety .
Once the shit wiil happen ...
Don't let any stupid fuckin' 'small' detail ,betray you ..
...Son ...
:bigjoint:
 
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